Starlight tints background skybox - Lighting issues

[krautbernd]

But they probably altered art assets already so they look good under the new post-processing. Having to maintain multiple sets of art assets to allow for disabling of post-processing seems like a waste.

How would they have altered "art assets" that have to work under multiple different light colors? Wouldn't you simply continue to use them as default assets, seeing how they were "designed" to work under neutral lighting and adjust the post processing effects accordingly? Isn't the whole point of post-processing that you can use the same assets and apply different effects?

 

[da_wae]

Absolutely true. And most of em were a huge improvement.

But they have little relevance, if any, to a discussion specifically about the tinting of the skybox from the local star color do they? Because that effect is ALL misapplied postprocessing.

ETA: and "an image designed to be post-processed" is flipping the workflow on its head. You don't render an image with post in mind. That's just not how it's done. If the post-process results in you having to go bavk and tweak something further up the render pipeline for the post-processed image to look right then you've done your post-processing wrong. And can turn in your image-geeks union card at the door.

Also about doing graphics rendering wrong, the entire Games Industry does it wrong: https://www.gamedev.net/forums/topi...2vulkanmantle/?do=findComment&comment=5215019

 

[da_wae]

How would they have altered "art assets" that have to work under multiple different light colors? Wouldn't you simply continue to use them as default assets, seeing how they were "designed" to work under neutral lighting and adjust the post processing effects accordingly? Isn't the whole point of post-processing that you can use the same assets and apply different effects?

Lighting != post processing. If your post-processing is an integral part of the rendering pipeline (instead of being optional), a lot of times you will tweak your assets to look as good as possible for your specific post-processing.

People seem to think we live in some kind of perfect candy world of software engineering where everyone writes perfect code, assets render perfectly under all lighting / post processing conditions. This ain't how real-world software engineering works: it's dirty, and probably involves more hacks than you're willing to admit.

 

[krautbernd]

Lighting != post processing. If your post-processing is an integral part of the rendering pipeline (instead of being optional), a lot of times you will tweak your assets to look as good as possible for your specific post-processing.

People seem to think we live in some kind of perfect candy world of software engineering where everyone writes perfect code, assets render perfectly under all lighting / post processing conditions. This ain't how real-world software engineering works: it's dirty, and probably involves more hacks than you're willing to admit.

But the assets in the game have to render right under all conditions, seeing how star systems are generated. Hence my reasoning that you'd not change the assets already in the game, as they work under neutral conditions. Assuming that they didn't rewrite the engine to make PP non-optional, turning off the effects (or parts, like the global tinting) should not only be possible, but trivial (seeing how the game already does it as part of bugged behavious involving the galaxy map). Yes, it would look different and maby not as good to some people, but nobody is forcing you to turn off the effects. Simply add the option to turn them off - either in part or in total.

 

[da_wae]

But the assets in the game have to render right under all conditions, seeing how star systems are generated. Hence my reasoning that you'd not change the assets already in the game, as they work under neutral conditions. Assuming that they didn't rewrite the engine to make PP non-optional, turning off the effects (or parts, like the global tinting) should not only be possible, but trivial (seeing how the game already does it as part of bugged behavious involving the galaxy map). Yes, it would look different and maby not as good to some people, but nobody is forcing you to turn off the effects. Simply add the option to turn them off - either in part or in total.

No art director is going to allow customization of post-processing if the assets don't look tip top without it.

 

[nanite2000]

No art director is going to allow customization of post-processing if the assets don't look tip top without it.

When FDev first demoed the new lighting engine, they showed a video comparison between the original lighting engine and the new engine using the same assets.

The assets have not changed.

 

[krautbernd]

No art director is going to allow customization of post-processing if the assets don't look tip top without it.

Doesn't that kind of prove my point though, seeing how not all graphic cards support all shader models? We can already turn down or disable other post-processing options. The tinting is more or less neutral on white stars and only that prominent on neutron stars and red dwarfs. Again, as far as i can tell disabling the tint or locking it to neutral would not impact overall gameplay and would not require additional work on art assets, since they already have to work under those conditions anyway.

When FDev first demoed the new lighting engine, they showed a video comparison between the original lighting engine and the new engine using the same assets.
The assets have not changed.

Thanks for the confirmation. That's along the lines of what i've been thinking.

 

[da_wae]

When FDev first demoed the new lighting engine, they showed a video comparison between the original lighting engine and the new engine using the same assets.

The assets have not changed.

Well, then that's good news for everyone complaining. It means there's a chance greater than 0 of them adding a switch to turn off post-processing. Wouldn't hold my breath for it, tho.

 

[Straha Yeagar]

Core viewed from Inside a red dwarf system...new lighting

Core from insode red dwarf system, old lighting

 

[krautbernd]

Core viewed from Inside a red dwarf system...new lighting
Core from insode red dwarf system, old lighting

[???]

One looks nice and crisp and has a good color balance. The other one looks red.

 

[da_wae]

Core viewed from Inside a red dwarf system...new lighting



Core from insode red dwarf system, old lighting

Literally unplayable

 

[krautbernd]

Literally unplayable

Yeah, i bet it was a chore to get those screenshots.

 

[Straha Yeagar]

Side by side...Core from neutron star in new lighting, very close to where first image above was taken

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

man, this discussion really wants me to reinstall Renderdoc again to check out at what step the effect is applied.

 

[rhiz]

I agree with you that the skybox tinting needs to be fixed.

However, when the engine includes the post-processing as an integral part of rendering, you very much prepare your assets for the way they will look after all the rendering is complete - including post-processing. Specifically textures and reflection maps.

A texture might look good in one type of post-processing but lose details with a different technique.

Or do you think games that use cell-shading don't prepare their assets for that? I know cell-shading is an extreme post-processing technique, but assets are very much made with their post-rasterization transformations in mind.

But it can't be fixed without removing the filters. [haha]

 

[da_wae]

But it can't be fixed without removing the filters. [haha]

I'm not 100% sure about that. They seem to have some control as to how much the current star affects overall lighting, as the further you get from the star the less it affects lighting.

But what do I know. Graphical computing is super duper easy, as is all software engineering. Simple, streamlined and everyone knows everything about all subjects.

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

I'm not 100% sure about that. They seem to have some control as to how much the current star affects overall lighting, as the further you get from the star the less it affects lighting.

But what do I know. Graphical computing is super duper easy, as is all software engineering. Simple, streamlined and everyone knows everything about all subjects.

but obviously you know the least about it, or else you wouldn't write so much nonsensical stuff about it.

 

[da_wae]

but obviously you know the least about it, or else you wouldn't write so much nonsensical stuff about it.

Totally. I don't have a degree in computer science or studied the subject, at all.

 

[Vandaahl]

My turn. 4 pictures all of the same system.

On entering:

100 ls

1000 ls

10000 ls

I can think of a couple of physics101 things that could cause this.

 

[da_wae]

My turn. 4 pictures all of the same system.

On entering:


100 ls


1000 ls


10000 ls


I can think of a couple of physics101 things that could cause this.

Seems to me like I said before, the effect of the tinting diminishes as you get further away from the star. Indicating you can probably fix the issue within the framework of the new graphics changes.