Starlight tints background skybox - Lighting issues

Think of it as mood lighting, realism is frequently very boring.

I see, you really don't get what excites us about Elite... We, meaning those people who don't like the tinting, see it as a mood lighting. But we don't want a mood lighting in Elite space. Mood light the insides of space stations all you want, but hands off space and the background skybox! Mood lighting breaks the illusion of real space flight into half.
 
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I see, you really don't get what excites us about Elite... We, meaning those people who don't like the tinting, see it as a mood lighting. But we don't want a mood lighting in Elite space. Mood light the insides of space stations all you want, but hands off space and the background skybox! Mood lighting breaks the illusion of real space flight into half.

The previous lighting model is hardly realistic. Space in general looks much more boring than even the previous model, as for most cases you wouldn't be able to even discern the most basic colors with the naked eye (due to lack of sufficient number of photons hitting your rods).

Don't illusion yourself, they are both mood lightnings. Different moods, but neither is realistic.

Edit: If you want realism - for any place in a system with star with a similar luminescence to our Sun - further away from said star than Mars (maybe Jupiter) is from our Sun, you would very much need to use floodlights in close proximity and night vision (usually monochromatic) at far away distances to be able to discern most visual details.

More edit: most (if not all) pictures you see of our solar system (taken by probes usually), are originally monochromatic and the colors are added manually in post-processing.
 
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I see, you really don't get what excites us about Elite... We, meaning those people who don't like the tinting, see it as a mood lighting. But we don't want a mood lighting in Elite space. Mood light the insides of space stations all you want, but hands off space and the background skybox! Mood lighting breaks the illusion of real space flight into half.

Not for me. My breakers are things third person or station rammers. Luckily 3rd person isn't a thing and I've blocked all the rammers.
 
I see. I mean, it seems to me (from your description) that the only way they'd be able to keep the "starlight affects overall light color but not affect skybox" would be to render the skybox after applying the post-rasterization filters to the main viewport and compose the images. Not sure how feasible that would be as it seems like it would add a lot of extra complexity (similar in some ways to how cel-shading works).

It seems they're reaching the technical limits of the Cobra engine.

Actually, i don't know why its necessary to tint anything in post processing.
i remember the starlight being colored already pre 3.3. and the only thing that was missing, was a bit of contrast.

we have seen many using reshade to make the colors more vibrant - with a much better result.

the color tinting they have added now, is just the attempt to replace the broken image based lighting, that uses the skybox (which is always the beige galaxy...)

IMHO if they just work on the IBL for the colors, the result would be much better, without destroying the look of the HUD
 
I'm all for a toggle. Have the galaxy as fantasy as you like, as long as it's not on my screen. :)

I'm all with Valorin here. A toggle would be very nice.

I just played for a couple of hours for the first time after the 'upgrade' and I am a little shocked by how bad it looks in my opinion. I'm playing on a hardware (!) calibrated monitor set to neutral color rendition - I'm not talking about software profiling, since I know Elite doesn't support that and why should it.
The tinting is almost unbearable. The previously black space is rarely black anymore, the cockpit-elements are often hugely oversaturated, the HUD-glow is badly intensified, station interiors look bland... really a shame. It was such a pretty game.

I don't know who thought this would be an update. Obviously there are people who like carnival in space - and who am I to judge. But please FD make it optional!
 
I'd be curious as to the demographic of who loves vs. hates the new color system. As an explorer who "travels the stars" to see those stars, I strongly dislike it for the most part. If I were mainly a bounty hunter operating in only a few systems, living inside a planet's ring and staring at bright colorful lasers and explosions for the majority of my gameplay, then I might be much more excited about the saturation and "pop" and not even notice the fake skybox tint.

Another reason I strongly dislike the new color system is that it amplifies all the defects and low-quality settings on the console. I read others love how it makes the game look even sharper, making me think they are able to play at max settings and don't even see what I see...
 
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I didn't mean to "call you out", it was always meant as a joke.
I never really thought you'd lie about something like this, as it would be easy for anyone to catch any lie regarding both fields [haha]

Nice tinfoil hat tho.

Edit: I thought it was obvious I was joking when I said "do a 23andMe thing" - since that hardly a scientific way of describing the process LMAO [haha]

No worries, When you been hanging around on the 'net since it was called ARPANET you get used to a lot of folks claiming credentials and they get taken with a huge pinch of salt. Which also means that if one claims any oneself, one has to be prepared to demonstrate that they aint fantasy at the drop of an electron.
 
Agreeing that this update has messed up the looks of the game with lightning and likely also with these tint effects. Since the patch been trying to find reasonable settings with gamma and brightness, but it just doesn't help with certain problems with lightning. I never had to meddle up with these settings before.

Got a new display few weeks back and was able finally to see the game with greater detail and on bigger screen. Have been quite impressed how the game looks - for example how space station's details come up with deep shadows and so on. The first thing I noticed after chapter 4 launch was that the lightning seemed quite overwhelming. Details burn away because of overexposure.. for example space stations have lost (from outside) lot of their details now because of lighting in certain angles.. in many places that gloomy atmosphere is gone. Won't even start how the stations look inside, its carnival - bright lights wash off the details.

Same goes with fighting thargoids - in some situations the lightning is fine, but in many situations interceptors lose their details (because of overexposure) and even the exerted hearts are visually harder to detect at some situations because of this. Playing with gamma doesn't solve this and it also makes everything else dark.

It's hard to say anything positive about the lightning or tints, because now it messes up things, which affects gameplay and atmosphere. Probably there are good things too, but the result so far has been very dissappointing for myself. As suggested, possibility to toggle lightning and color grading off would be the least thing to do, if those things are here to stay this way.
 
The previous lighting model is hardly realistic. Space in general looks much more boring than even the previous model, as for most cases you wouldn't be able to even discern the most basic colors with the naked eye (due to lack of sufficient number of photons hitting your rods).

Don't illusion yourself, they are both mood lightnings. Different moods, but neither is realistic.

Edit: If you want realism - for any place in a system with star with a similar luminescence to our Sun - further away from said star than Mars (maybe Jupiter) is from our Sun, you would very much need to use floodlights in close proximity and night vision (usually monochromatic) at far away distances to be able to discern most visual details.

More edit: most (if not all) pictures you see of our solar system (taken by probes usually), are originally monochromatic and the colors are added manually in post-processing.

Hm. Well, of course the former lighting model wasn't realistic. Many things weren't and still aren't, because Elite is a game and not a 1:1 simulation of real life in space. It's about a certain level of believability, not an absolutely accurate simulation (which is also hard because nobody has been in another star system yet).

Breaking the laws of physics like this for a visual effect that is so wrong and unrealistic that it stands out like this clearly oversteps the line. That's what my complain is about.
Also, just to have said that: I really value the work Fdev has put into Q4. It's a great update and pretty plain to see how much work and love they put into the game. Makes the whole issue even more frustrating actually. :D
 
I've finally managed to get around and file a bug report concerning this and other issues i encountered with the new lighting system. Let me know if you can reproduce any of those. I've also linked the original report from the beta.
 
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More edit: most (if not all) pictures you see of our solar system (taken by probes usually), are originally monochromatic and the colors are added manually in post-processing.

I disagree with this. Any picture I've posted are "enhanced" by longer exposures and very sensitive CCDs, but the color you see is color that's there, even if our eyes would normally see it as B&W (grayscale). Yes, NASA sometimes uses fake colors in presentations to point out geological features of some planets, but that's not what we are talking about when we say "realistic". I don't mind if ED looks like a photo taken on long exposure, or even if it looks like a color photo with the saturation turned up. What the OP and I and others strongly dislike is when ED looks like we're viewing the night sky through colored glasses, kinda like my avatar :p

If you want realism

ED's galaxy looks the most "realistic" when I switch my monitor to grayscale mode. I'm talking about the galactic core and the local star (at least Sol). That said, I can actually see color in many of the stars in my own night sky IRL, though I need to stand outside for a period of time for my eyes to become sensitive enough to pick this up. As said above, I don't mind if the actual colors are enhanced (otherwise the galaxy would be mostly black and white), but making the galaxy ugly brown (the default) or puke green (as it looks with certain stars) is just wrong.
 
I disagree with this. Any picture I've posted are "enhanced" by longer exposures and very sensitive CCDs, but the color you see is color that's there,
Incorrect. May not be entirely false, since you may not have seen many pictures at all, but most likely you don't know how the picture was done.
Just about all the pictures will be made with a monocrhome CCD since that has the highest quantum efficiency, theefore each photon still counts. Then it is prefaced with a filter for quite often non-visible-wavelenths, which cut out lots of photons, but each one that gets through counts more than if it were a permanent doped CCD pixel. The filter is then swapped for other filters and more images taken. And the group is combined and each filter is settled into a colour figure to make it visible for printing. After all, an invisible photon needs to be represented visibly for humans or it isn't sensible to include it on an image, right?

Almost all the images, unless taken by amateur astrophotographers with a colour CCD imager or emulsion (many of which were specially formulated to be sensitive to IR light, invisible as light, but recorded as a dimmed halide crystal and turned into a visible black and white image despite being just as black as empty sky to human sight), will be created by this method, and how to match each image to a colour for amalgamation is part of what the OP was talking about, they did not have the terms, only a recollection.


Yes, NASA sometimes uses fake colors in presentations to point out geological features of some planets
Nope, they usually do it, and almost never for "geological features". Some of it just isn't registered in the visible wavelengths. Most of the interesting stuff isn't.

but that's not what we are talking about when we say "realistic".
It should be, otherwise the GPP is 100% correct. Most of the imaging would be invisible to human eyes, so even if you headcanon that into human augmented sight for the pilots federation, it is still an unrealistic view of the universe since the augmentation would have included some jovian pronouncement of how non-visible wavelengths would be transformed to one or another colour receptor in the eye of a trichromatic or more human.

What the OP and I and others strongly dislike is when ED looks like we're viewing the night sky through colored glasses, kinda like my avatar :p

So you don't like the change. X4 has a different lighting. Some think it cartoonish. Some thought that ED was ridiculously overexposed.

What you are talking about now is not a lighting issue but a visual preference.

But if that is the case, you should not be using what is realistic, only what is preferred.

So if someone rebuts a post calling unrealistic lighting with the GPP's argument, that riposte is 100% valid, whether or not you yourself call it a personal preference you would like to have control over in your graphics settings, same as AA or shadow detail, et al.

"ED's galaxy looks the most "realistic"

Nope. It does not. the GPP's point was that it was not realistic, then you complained that talking about realism didn't mean that, it was what made sense, a preference, then in the same post proclaimed realism was the point, either rebutting your claim above or making your preference an absolute standard of reality. It isn't.

ED was entirely and utterly unrealistic for a hominid in a spaceship. This version is just as "unrealistic" but it takes, as far as I can tell, the unrealism that it had before and allows the consequences of an alternate reality where such a visual look would be made mechanically possible. And the consequence of it is that there would be a huge amount of tinting from all light sources bright enough to be seen as bright as they appear in the original ED design you called realistic.

Human eyes made sensitive enough to colour to register the nebulae as they did would ALSO tint the cockpit massively, just as the current system does.

No problem if you claim you don't like it.

Just don't call it less realistic than the original view. Because the original view was unrealistic but then abandoned any realistic consequence of its decision, abandoning any reason for it to be "realistic" in an alternate universe and making it unrealistic even where it would appear like that.
 

Guest193293

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In any case, background and stars being tinted by a star is NOT accurate at all.
 
In any case, background and stars being tinted by a star is NOT accurate at all.

This too is incorrect. Your brain recalibrates what is "white" and colours will change based on surrounding colours. There's the "look at this projector shining a coloured light, then turn it off and you see the complementary colour" proof for the former, and there's an image of a "rubik's cube" where one of the sides "looks yellow" like the other, well lit sides, yet when the baby-poo-brown is set all on its own, you don't see it as the same colour.

Again, not good to use "realistic" to back your argument, it only removes any argument for your point. At least personal preference is supported by reality (cognitive science and psychology) and changing the look can be relegated to "We can do it for the other graphical tweaks, why not here too?" with 100% validity. If your argument is "realism!" then you have no argument.
 
This too is incorrect. Your brain recalibrates what is "white" and colours will change based on surrounding colours. There's the "look at this projector shining a coloured light, then turn it off and you see the complementary colour" proof for the former,

The projector is only affecting the colour of another when the other is not a light-emitting source.

Try this experiment - turn on a red bulb in your room. Does the colour output of your monitor change as a result of the red light? Is it now also tinted red because of the red light bulb?

Edit: better yet, turn on a red light at night and look at the sky - has it now changed colour in the presence of your red light?

and there's an image of a "rubik's cube" where one of the sides "looks yellow" like the other, well lit sides, yet when the baby-poo-brown is set all on its own, you don't see it as the same colour.

That’s to do with contrast. You don’t see a different colour - you see a different shade of the same colour.

The case we are arguing here is that the galaxy background is changing colour, despite being a light-emitting source.

Again, not good to use "realistic" to back your argument, it only removes any argument for your point. At least personal preference is supported by reality (cognitive science and psychology) and changing the look can be relegated to "We can do it for the other graphical tweaks, why not here too?" with 100% validity. If your argument is "realism!" then you have no argument.

I think you are really clutching at straws here. The galaxy does not change colour, neither objectively nor subjectively, when you are near a red light source.

That’s an objective fact.
 
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BTW, it's possible to disable/break the filter (on a per session/system basis). For anyone who's interested, see my bug report. Feel free to chime in if you can reproduce any of these bugs.

breaking_the_filterj6f7j.gif
 
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This too is incorrect.

You are full of fancy facts (many of which are correct), but quoting a bunch of correct facts does not invalidate everything everyone else is saying. But I'm sure it's fun. Let me try your logic:

"Everything you, Sterling MH, say is incorrect because Light is electromagnetic radiation within a certain portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. The word usually refers to visible light, which is the visible spectrum that is visible to the human eye and is responsible for the sense of sight.[1] Visible light is usually defined as having wavelengths in the range of 400–700 nanometres (nm), or 4.00 × 10−7 to 7.00 × 10−7 m, between the infrared (with longer wavelengths) and the ultraviolet (with shorter wavelengths).[2][3] This wavelength means a frequency range of roughly 430–750 terahertz (THz).
Beam of sun light inside the cavity of Rocca ill'Abissu at Fondachelli Fantina, Sicily

The main source of light on Earth is the Sun. Sunlight provides the energy that green plants use to create sugars mostly in the form of starches, which release energy into the living things that digest them. This process of photosynthesis provides virtually all the energy used by living things. Historically, another important source of light for humans has been fire, from ancient campfires to modern kerosene lamps. With the development of electric lights and power systems, electric lighting has effectively replaced firelight. Some species of animals generate their own light, a process called bioluminescence. For example, fireflies use light to locate mates, and vampire squids use it to hide themselves from prey.

The primary properties of visible light are intensity, propagation direction, frequency or wavelength spectrum, and polarization, while its speed in a vacuum, 299,792,458 metres per second, is one of the fundamental constants of nature. Visible light, as with all types of electromagnetic radiation (EMR), is experimentally found to always move at this speed in a vacuum.[4]

In physics, the term light sometimes refers to electromagnetic radiation of any wavelength, whether visible or not.[5][6] In this sense, gamma rays, X-rays, microwaves and radio waves are also light. Like all types of EM radiation, visible light propagates as waves. However, the energy imparted by the waves is absorbed at single locations the way particles are absorbed. The absorbed energy of the EM waves is called a photon, and represents the quanta of light. When a wave of light is transformed and absorbed as a photon, the energy of the wave instantly collapses to a single location, and this location is where the photon "arrives." This is what is called the wave function collapse. This dual wave-like and particle-like nature of light is known as the wave–particle duality. The study of light, known as optics, is an important research area in modern physics."


It really makes it hard to take you seriously....
 
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