Beyond is great but please let the next updates focus on combat and PvP

Doing so would make PvP more appealing across the board? Doing so would give PvP impact and meaning within the galaxy? Doing so would make PvP self sustaining as a way to earn credits? No.

Dropping in to mention a peeve may be self gratifying, but it does nothing to move this, or any, discussion along. It is part and parcel to why things stay exactly as they are.

It will make PvP more appealing, as there is no more fitting gap that big we have now between tradeships and combat breeds.

Impact and meaning as well as payment require integration of players into the game world,
which i think has been at least started with squadrons and affiliating players to minor factions via that.
Now you need long standing contracts, like mercenary work is done in Mount & Blade, be paid weekly wages
and get bonus payment for risky missions.

To integrate that into the world a lot of steps are to take.
But PvP never has been more interesting and open to all,
than when everyone had sameish chances and engagements reflected
world war like performance: get the jump, get the kill.

Now it is just hitpoints here and there to even get started.
EvEification at its best, which killed EvE for me.

That is not only locking PvP behind specific fitting doctrines,
it also takes it out of the game mostly.
TTK is long and thus engagements are boring.

What i mentioned here is not what you guys want,
but what still needs to be done.
It is a necessary drastic cut into the current game to let it fly again.
A reason why i honestly hope Elite soon dies, so modders can set this right asap.

Let me put this clear:
Make PvP for a subset of the community -> Exclusitivity -> uninteresting part of the game for most
Make PvP accesible to all and a pillar of the game without catering to the hardcore PvP crowd -> Experience and engaging content for all
 
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It will make PvP more appealing, as there is no more fitting gap that big we have now between tradeships and combat breeds.

Impact and meaning as well as payment require integration of players into the game world,
which i think has been at least started with squadrons and affiliating players to minor factions via that.
Now you need long standing contracts, like mercenary work is done in Mount & Blade, be paid weekly wages
and get bonus payment for risky missions.

To integrate that into the world a lot of steps are to take.
But PvP never has been more interesting and open to all,
than when everyone had sameish chances and engagements reflected
world war like performance: get the jump, get the kill.

Now it is just hitpoints here and there to even get started.
EvEification at its best, which killed EvE for me.

That is not only locking PvP behind specific fitting doctrines,
it also takes it out of the game mostly.
TTK is long and thus engagements are boring.

What i mentioned here is not what you guys want,
but what still needs to be done.
It is a necessary drastic cut into the current game to let it fly again.
A reason why i honestly hope Elite soon dies, so modders can set this right asap.

Let me put this clear:
Make PvP for a subset of the community -> Exclusitivity -> uninteresting part of the game for most
Make PvP accesible to all and a pillar of the game without catering to the hardcore PvP crowd -> Experience and engaging content for all

Making it easier, or at least take less time, to destroy a ship will make PvP more popular? I don;t see it. That wasn't the case before Engineers, M/HRPs, and S-Boosters. We had exactly the same split as we do now. Bringing the TTK down would make some PvPers happy, but doing so would fall short of anything else.

Reducing the TTK would do nothing to integrate PvP into the game mechanics, would do nothing to bring rewards to the participants, would do nothing to include in-game impact for the effort, and certainly wouldn't do much to attract more players to engage. I'm afraid reducing TTK, although not unattractive in itself, would be a token gesture, solving none of the issue expressed in the OP, or the rest of the discussion that has been raised in this thread.
 
Making it easier, or at least take less time, to destroy a ship will make PvP more popular? I don;t see it. That wasn't the case before Engineers, M/HRPs, and S-Boosters. We had exactly the same split as we do now. Bringing the TTK down would make some PvPers happy, but doing so would fall short of anything else.

Reducing the TTK would do nothing to integrate PvP into the game mechanics, would do nothing to bring rewards to the participants, would do nothing to include in-game impact for the effort, and certainly wouldn't do much to attract more players to engage. I'm afraid reducing TTK, although not unattractive in itself, would be a token gesture, solving none of the issue expressed in the OP, or the rest of the discussion that has been raised in this thread.

The removal doesn't only solve the TTK problem, but also allows to create a balanceable field.
We have too many modules, variables, engineer mods and such to ever find something in the middle.
By removing the modules or maybe hardcoding them only to military slots, while reducing their number drastically
we finally see ships with purpose and a role, as well as the aforementioned playing field that no longer is balancing hell.

Hitpoint inflation defacto currently is a must have to enter PvP, the same problem had EvE.
Though games like War Thunder better portrait the whole situation and reward thinking and tactics more,
where TTK is very low, given you have the right tool or target the right part of the bird.
 
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The removal doesn't only solve the TTK problem, but also allows to create a balanceable field.
We have too many modules, variables, engineer mods and such to ever find something in the middle.
By removing the modules or maybe hardcoding them only to military slots, while reducing their number drastically
we finally see ships with purpose and a role, as well as the aforementioned playing field that no longer is balancing hell.

Hitpoint inflation defacto currently is a must have to enter PvP, the same problem had EvE.
Though games like War Thunder better portrait the whole situation and reward thinking and tactics more,
where TTK is very low, given you have the right tool or target the right part of the bird.

I think we are right back at post # 418.
 
This is my pvp (now) outsider pov :

1. Pvp is endgame content atm.
2. Pvp is costly to get in.
3. Pvp has high running costs
4. Pvp has little ingame support
5. Pvp has no matchmakjng function and no tier system.
6. It seens to be fully consumed by the engineering hp bloatfest.
7. Seems dominated by relative mouse. Sad for a piloting game.

I used to do PP themed Pvp but l dropped out of it after engineering due to the entry cost (time) and unfun 20min slugfests.

I might get back into it. Mainly due to the now easier engineering and dealt with god roll modules issues.
 
This is my pvp (now) outsider pov :

1. Pvp is endgame content atm.
2. Pvp is costly to get in.
3. Pvp has high running costs
4. Pvp has little ingame support
5. Pvp has no matchmakjng function and no tier system.
6. It seens to be fully consumed by the engineering hp bloatfest.
7. Seems dominated by relative mouse. Sad for a piloting game.

I used to do PP themed Pvp but l dropped out of it after engineering due to the entry cost (time) and unfun 20min slugfests.

I might get back into it. Mainly due to the now easier engineering and dealt with god roll modules issues.

This is a very foreign perspective for me.

My first PvP encounter occured less than 15 minutes after I finished the game's tutorial missions in Beta and I had two PvP kills my first day of playing the game.

I was never not 'in' PvP...it was just an inseparable part of my CMDR encountering the occasional hostile CMDR.

I don't really lose any money in PvP. I've always played my CMDR as a survivor, someone more willing to run than risk his continued existence on rumored infallibility of that ejection capsule, and my ship losses in PvP, while certainly not zero, are few and far between.

PvP has all the in-game support it needs...weapons damage CMDR ships just as readily as others.

PvP has the same match making system as non-PvP content...in and out of game comms.

Engineering is mandatory to have competitive tools, yes. It's unwise to assume any foe has anything other than the best incarnation of their loadout possible.

While relative mouse does provide an advantage with some weapons in some scenarios, I fly with a HOTAS and there are far more relative mouse PvPers that are no match for me at all than there are those who are decisively better. I don't feel my controls are an all-round limiting factor...or at least aren't a handicap enough to mean much in the light of the experience I've been able to accrue. I do freely admit that my railgun aim is not up to snuff and that I have difficulty with fixed hitscan weapons while FA-off, but again these are not the only effective options available.
 
If you are not making more money for time and effort doing combat stuff then you are combatting wrong. I make more money per hour bounty hunting then I do most other activities. KWS....some people dont like them, but I use them all the time and I almost double my bounty payouts by using it.
 
To be clear, that's the current perception I have of it.

I used to PvP in the golden era of lave piracy. But TBH all the meningfull and fun PvP I had was pre engineers and cookie cutter builds.

And game coms as matchmaking : never worked for me. All I got is rebuys whilst typing in my asp/x. Now it's escape routine 101 every time.

But I have fond memories of vulture duels and narrow escape in my rare trading ASP.

Maybe, I should plunge back into it.
 
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Has anyone suggested PvP only combat zones? Maybe also around some structures or even stations. It would be a bit like destiny with its separate modes.

How about making a PvP mode, so the modes become
Open
PvP
PG
Solo

PvP, unlike Open, can ignore block lists and can push more people into the same instance, ensuring that PvP occurs. At least more actively. If it is possible to make it happen, if trading for PP merits and faction changes are buffed there, but only as long as they are done entirely in the PvP mode, then for those who WANT "meaningful PvP" for PP, you get it. The people carrying letters will be enticed with carrot into PvP mode where they will have a higher risk but higher reward, for their PP actions. Those who only want to be the predator get to see some prey. They should not get increased PP power for combat, however. Otherwise there would be no benefit from being anything other than combat PP PvP. If the reward difference is high enough that those who run combat only are going to lose against a PP player who runs the risk of trading leaflets, there's a reason for someone to swap about a bit and at least do SOME trading in the PvP mode, increasing the diversity of the player base in that mode, so you aren't going to be only slaved to another combat meta build.

If it were "No rebuy" in the PvP mode, with current rewards, combat builds lose little, but those who trade lose a lot. THAT needs to be upped, if only to increase the diversity of players in this mode. And enough that if you want to play the combat version you are still "forced" to play SOME of the time as prey. Otherwise you will only meet combat pilots again. And it could eventually become some CQC match in-game.

After all, if you run this mode you won't instance with someone else in Open, so you can be on equal footing even if you're given free rebuys but pay if you lose in Open. So if it is made so that you can choose your ship and be instantly teleported into just that zone for your "meaningful PvP" and to leave you have to log out and restart in another mode, meaning you are now back to the original location, just with whatever gains and losses to your account you earned, then AGAIN, we get CQC in the "real game" *without* ruining everyone else's game in their mode.

But the very simplest option is for PvP to be a mode, and if you're in that mode, you will be instanced with others who chose that mode. Heck, to allow a greater increase in the player count, it could be where some FD server is used as the hosting client, and devoting all the resources to the coordination that would otherwise be put into flying the game and rendering the objects. Put a few around the world and you would cut the audience a bit, but you could stack a lot more people a lot more reliably.

Maybe some form of limit to the sectors it keeps. If you go too far, therefore won't be instanced with anyone, you go to the open state again, where you or another peer will coordinate the shared state,with the rubber banding etc that gives you.

The next release, for changes to the base game, needs to find some love for trading and tradeships/miners. Trading improvements WILL help miners too, since they gotta sell to make any money. Add this PvP mode as coeval with the other modes of playing, and anything else, including paid content (IMO if the base game gets space legs, to get out of the hangar will require a pass, which you get "free" with the paid expansion. It's how I'd do it, FD have to get paid), can be external. The base game needs some loving for the trading gameplay loops so that you don't have to run trade missions to see a decent ROI and a loop you can actually work with easily.
 
The removal doesn't only solve the TTK problem, but also allows to create a balanceable field.
We have too many modules, variables, engineer mods and such to ever find something in the middle.
By removing the modules or maybe hardcoding them only to military slots, while reducing their number drastically
we finally see ships with purpose and a role, as well as the aforementioned playing field that no longer is balancing hell.

Ok great!

So then we end up with no more multipurpose ships, it's either a ship kitted for PvP or it gets pulverized instantly. And here you say that TTK is too high!
Mind you, we're already at a situation where a non-engineered ASP can be destroyed before the pilot has a chance to conduct the second afterburner boost. And you want to make that even quicker, unless one flies a PvP-designed ship? Your way out of "balancing hell" is to just make every non-PvP build made out of paper and unable to resist attacks?

Could you be any more transparent?

First we had the constant requests by a select few and vocal users to "make BGS open-only", and "make PP open-only". Translation: You want more seals to club, because for sure you're not giving a limpet about the state of the BGS and your influence on it.
Now we have the request to make minmax even more of a thing: Either you kit your ship out for PvP (and thus not do anything else) or you have literally no chance at all to escape another player. Translation: You want the skin of seals to be thinner so that you have an easier time slicing them,

Make no mistake: I question your motive. Or rather, I don't question your motive, I think it's very obvious what you want to achieve. Your arguments make no sense, unless I imagine them being said with a leery grin on your face.


I'm very hopeful that FD are not completely blind. And heck, maybe we even get more tools to level the playing field so that people who don't focus on PvP have a chance to at least get out of encounters without a guaranteed loss of ship.
 
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Ok great!

So then we end up with no more multipurpose ships, it's either a ship kitted for PvP or it gets pulverized instantly. And here you say that TTK is too high!
Mind you, we're already at a situation where a non-engineered ASP can be destroyed before the pilot has a chance to conduct the second afterburner boost. And you want to make that even quicker, unless one flies a PvP-designed ship? Your way out of "balancing hell" is to just make every non-PvP build made out of paper and unable to resist attacks?

Could you be any more transparent?

First we had the constant requests by a select few and vocal users to "make BGS open-only", and "make PP open-only". Translation: You want more seals to club, because for sure you're not giving a limpet about the state of the BGS and your influence on it.
Now we have the request to make minmax even more of a thing: Either you kit your ship out for PvP (and thus not do anything else) or you have literally no chance at all to escape another player. Translation: You want the skin of seals to be thinner so that you have an easier time slicing them,

Make no mistake: I question your motive. Or rather, I don't question your motive, I think it's very obvious what you want to achieve. Your arguments make no sense, unless I imagine them being said with a leery grin on your face.


I'm very hopeful that FD are not completely blind. And heck, maybe we even get more tools to level the playing field so that people who don't focus on PvP have a chance to at least get out of encounters without a guaranteed loss of ship.

Uh, actually by having hitpoint inflation reduced or completely abolished
by removing things to stack, your transport/miner ships have valuable defense options
using turrets.
Those become relevant oponents, where their low dps now just is tickling megashields.

All ships being viable for combat was the case back before the original release.
Now we have triple plasma builds because of the hitpoints to eat through
and the effectiveness of the wepaon allround.

Of course would weapon boating be a thing to address aswell.
But things will be more calculateable and balances can be done
once more on basis of the ship chassis.
 
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Uh, actually by having hitpoint inflation reduced or completely abolished
by removing things to stack, your transport/miner ships have valuable defense options
using turrets.
Those become relevant oponents, where their low dps now just is tickling megashields.

All ships being viable for combat was the case back before the original release.
Now we have triple plasma builds because of the hitpoints to eat through
and the effectiveness of the wepaon allround.

Of course would weapon boating be a thing to address aswell.
But things will be more calculateable and balances can be done
once more on basis of the ship chassis.

Yeah, right ... whom do you want to fool here? What Toumal says is spot on and we would need like five updates focused on exploration in a row to maybe break even with what you PvP nuts got in attention.

You folks must be really desperate.
 
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giphy.gif
 
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Yeah, right ... whom do you want to fool here? What Toumal says is spot on and we would need like five updates focused on exploration in a row to maybe break even with what you PvP nuts got in attention.

You folks must be really desperate.
Defensive module stacking is currently ruining the balance of ALL combat, not just PvP. Considering a very large number of activities in the game at least come with the possibility of combat, it's a fairly large and far-reaching problem.
 
If you are not making more money for time and effort doing combat stuff then you are combatting wrong. I make more money per hour bounty hunting then I do most other activities. KWS....some people dont like them, but I use them all the time and I almost double my bounty payouts by using it.

Every ship I use for combat has a KWS. 10 seconds is a pain for scanning, but engineering will bring that down to 2. I think even a T-9 would manage with that.
 
The most logical way for PVP to become 'meaningful' is to tie the activity into the BGS, somehow. The problem with this idea is how to equate the infinitesimal amounts of players killed by PVP into something meaningful, when looking at the overall wash of PVE trophy inputs, without opening up a can full of ways to cheat in the game.


Bingo. Maybe a special mission from the BGS to fight a player/squadron aligned to the opposing faction in a war. Both players / squadrons have to accept the mission for the rewards to take effect after so it's consensual.Lorewise, the "duel" is a pivotal event so the INF effects are boosted.

If local system news reflect the outcome then so much the better.,
 
Uh, actually by having hitpoint inflation reduced or completely abolished
by removing things to stack, your transport/miner ships have valuable defense options
using turrets.
Those become relevant oponents, where their low dps now just is tickling megashields.

All ships being viable for combat was the case back before the original release.
Now we have triple plasma builds because of the hitpoints to eat through
and the effectiveness of the wepaon allround.

Of course would weapon boating be a thing to address aswell.
But things will be more calculateable and balances can be done
once more on basis of the ship chassis.
Dropping this here, since it's quite relevant to the discussion:
[video=youtube;DTpEgRaEhss]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTpEgRaEhss[/video]
 

AP Birdman

Banned
I found that CQC wasn't good for my PvP wants due to it having no meaning in the game world.

I'd love to see cqc just put into the game. Like a megaship players could land at that would queue them for a match then "deliver" players to an asteroid field or something.
And let us use OUR OWN SHIPS!
 
I do think this update made PvP a bit more accessible because of the Engineer grindwall. But honestly, the most fun I had in PvP was in 1.5 and below. No engineering, paper shields, and much faster TTK on everything.

I really miss having playing PvP missions with my casual friends. Engineers scared everyone away.
 
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