Mining - Am I alone feeling it's unbalanced/not quite working?

[NeilF]

First - Mining shows some great potential. In truth it's one of the largest and most impressive new additions to the game in years. BUT, IMHO it shows some issues (at least from my experiences with it)...

Note: By all means feel free to disagree or explain where my experience in beta/live is not accurate/correct or is unfair etc. But please do so politely


The Main Gameplay Loop
So you decide you want to mine for a particular materials, or set of valuable materials? You invest your time finding a suitable ring, and you believe this investment is rewarded by finding a suitable hotspot (eg: You find an "Alexandrite" or "Low Temp Diamond" hotspot). You enter the hotspot and mine...

The issue I've repeatedly hit is the balancing of the four mining mechanics:-

• Legacy mining
• Surface deposits
• Sub-surface deposits
• Fissures (motherlode)

In my experience mining using the Pulse Wave Anaylser (PWA) now means:-

1. Never legacy mining [Everything seems geared/balanced to 2, 3 & 4]
2. Finding asteroids with surface deposits generally means finding materials you're simply not interested in, asteroid after asteroid. Indeed, after a while you end up using the analysis view to see surface deposits, and then not even "wasting" a prospector limpet.
3. Rarely find sub-surface deposits [To some degree because of 2]
4. Ending up simply looking for motherlodes, simply because they do generally give a good return of something you're interested in.

The Current Outcome
From my current experience, the mining gameplay we have feels questionably balanced. ie: The mechanics and elements put in (for surface, sub-surface and fissures) seems confused in what they're trying to offer. And legacy mining even more so!

Too much time is spent looking for motherlodes, simply due to the poor balancing of the alternative mining mechanics.

And from a personal point of view, it also generally all feels too slow. Surface deposits should be quick and dirty, leading all the way up to seismic charges being careful and considered. But even surface deposits are quite slow mechanic IMHO. [Hence the suggestion to auto-turret them below]

Conclusions - Balance Mechanics
IMHO the mining mechanics should be balanced from the bottom up. ie: You should be finding surface deposits more often then sub-surface, and finding sub-surface far more often than fissures (motherlodes). ie: A motherlode should be a nice bonus, not the be all and end all.

If I've specifically gone to an low temp diamond hotspot, what is the gameplay enjoyment and purpose of most asteroids highlighted by the PWA have surface deposits I'm simply not interested in? It leads to a tiresome slow gameplay outcome.

Conclusions - Legacy Mining
FD need to deside if legacy mining is a thing or not, and balance the game accordingly. Either throw it out and make surface deposits the new norm. Or include legacy mining as the bottom rung of the ladder, included in the gameplay and not ignored by it primarily by the PWA completely ignoring it.

Conclusions - Pulse Wave Analyser
IMHO the PWA needs to be adjusted in one of three ways. It should not highlight "new mechanics", but instead either:-

• Automatically highlight the presence/quantity of the hotspot's material in asteroids. The more of it, the "hotter" it shows.
• Automatically highlight the presence/quantity of a number of materials including the hotspot's material. The more of them, the "hotter" it shows. This list of materials could vary slightly, and be listed as say the X most similar materials in the ring in the ring information? Thus in a Painite Hotspot, Gold or Palladium may also show in the heatmap.
• You're able to program the PWA, ticking a list of materials you want it to "heat map" - IMHO this is not "aa easy win" because if you search solely for one material (eg: Ice Diamonds) you will be doing far more searching than mining, and may well be missing all the asteroids for example with "Alexandrite" in them.

Note: All these suggestions of course bring legacy mining back into the gameplay loop. eg: If the heat map reports an asteroid has "Alexandrite" (or whatever you're interested in), then it could be there in any one of four forms (legacy, surface, sub-surface or fissure). The heatmap could of course also give some clue as to the form the materials are in on the asteroid. So if you're not interested in legacy mining, the visual queues could let you know that's the form of the asteroid.

Misc Suggestions/Considerations

• Combine Subsurface Missile Launcher and Seismic Charge Launcher - Combine them into one module, which then appear as the two different items in firegroups.
• Return a more informative report of efficiency. eg: With sub-surface missiles and seismic charges give a percentage efficiency value.
• Remove legacy mining and put far more surface deposits on asteroids.
• Convert the abrasion blaster into an auto targeting/firing turret (for any surface deposits in line of sight/range), to significantly quicken up the gameplay loop.

Misc Suggestion - "Gold Rush"
Personally I have to say, the Void Opal "gold rush" price mechanics grate with me. The notion of simply upping a commodity price hundreds of percent just feels clunky. Far better to retain a more level and balanced economy, and instead offer some hiked prices periodically as part of a CG or mining mission payouts?

Misc Suggestion - Hotspot Depletion
FD have mentioned repeat mining of a hotspot will deplete it. However, they've not mentioned what this in truth means? eg: Less frequent "Low Temp Diamonds" in such a hotspot? Or simply less fequent motherlodes?

IMHO, depletion needs a clear value reported in the system information informing the CMDR how the mining in a hotspot is going to be affected by its depletion. eg: If its "Reserves" are at 100% then clearly it will be behaving as well as it can. But if it's at 50% might that mean you're only half as likely to find "Low Temp Diamonds" in such a hotspot. Even a vague term for the reserves would be better than none. eg: "Pristine", "High", "Medium", "Low" and "Very Low" to at least give a CMDR an idea of depletion of a hotspot.

And should depletion affect just the frequency of motherlodes? Or the frequency of the hotspots material? eg: If a Low Temp Diamonds hotspot is at 50% should that mean you'll be half as likely to find low temp diamonds in any/all forms (legacy, surface, sub-surface and fissure)?

And how quickly does this depletion regenerate?

 

[Ozram]

Yeah it’s not balanced. I can make 160 million per run in my Phantom hunting Void Opals. The other stuff is mostly dregs by comparison. Also, I really like the subsurface missiles but they’re neither needed often enough nor is what they dig usually that valuable (occasionally I’ve found low temp diamonds with them). Other stuff? Other stuff needs a buff because mining massive amounts should net similar profits to Core hunting, just with a different style and ship build.
What zi really wish as well is that the subsurface missiles were used for mining raw materials. Give us an alternative to the srv desert forager, plz! And make mining in great quantities a thing of some value. I’d love to set up a mining Conda or T9, but there’s no point when Void Opal hunting makes so much more. I can literally make 95 million per run in my Cobra4 doing that. Wow!

 

[GunnerBill]

Essentially I think you are right OP. However I'm going to give FDev the benefit of the doubt here.

Why?

Because I think it's almost impossible to predict how the community is going to take a thing and run with it given the possible permutations and the evolution of various "metas" for a new mechanic.

So, FD gave us new-mining as it is, will wait and see how that works for a while then make some tweaks as required.

Which therefore means at the moment I am happy.

Edit:

Void Opal Goldrush... similar to the high paying Pax missions when that mechanic was introduced. FD at least consistent here!

 

[NeilF]

I really like the subsurface missiles but they’re neither needed often enough nor is what they dig usually that valuable (occasionally I’ve found low temp diamonds with them). Other stuff? Other stuff needs a buff because mining massive amounts should net similar profits to Core hunting, just with a different style and ship build.

I think this is the fundamental issue - The gameplay loop is top heavy in generation and rewards pushing CMDRs towards motherlodes...

There should be far more surface deposits - which ideally are quick and dirty to mine (hence the auto target turret suggestion) - and far more sub surface deposits, so asteroids with these are worthwhile finds...

And next, the PWA needs to be play its role in this too. Currently, highlighting "new mechanics" ultimately just helps support the out-of-wack balance.

 

[through the hole backwards]

Personally very happy with the new mining system and whilst i appreciate the time and effort that the OP has taken in voicing his opinion, it is after all only that. I am enjoying the new choices that I have when i choose to go mining , i am enjoying the new challenges that the new system offers and i am enjoying the rewards that success in this new gameplay brings. It is only a game at the end of the day and i would say , perhaps cynically that your engagement with the development of game , however real you may perceive that to be , ends when you hand over the price of the game to the developers. I am happy with how it has gone , and happy with how it is going and i think that for once Fdev have got it about right, a new mechanic that has the possibility to lead to emergent gameplay combined with achievable and good rewards. To those who say the rewards are too high, i say go and do something else , exploration has been buffed, and there are new ships to play with, leave the miners alone , we have been looking fruitlessly for large deposits of painite for long enough with little reward for doing so and now we are given void opals to look for and a reward comensurate with the effort , and now skill, for doing so.

If that was TLDR, I like the new system, it pays well.

 

[sollisb]

Different thought process maybe...

If they balance the mining towards your ideas (not saying they're wrong) players will drop mining like a hot potato in favour of whatever else pays better?

 

[Old Duck]

Speaking of balance, and I know someone else brought this up, but I'm frustrated that I can't use my Type-7 (hey, I love that ship!) for cracking open asteroids due to hardpoint limitations. Frontier needs to buff the T7 with some medium hardpoints (it's a LARGE ship, for crying out loud) or make a small version of the nuke launcher.

The fact that I can get better returns mining in a Viper III than a Type-7 is very unbalanced..

 

[Brrokk]

It's awesome. Last night on the learning curve, didn't find any asteroids with fissures. Today found one but failed to blow it. Then found another, blew it, got 14 void opals. Huge feeling of achievement even if it's only 1% of what others have achieved, which IMO is what gaming is about.

 

[jason 55]

Was prepared to try the new mining concept as most other aspects of the update seem crippled with bugs atm, so loaded up and headed out to the less populated systems to give it a go. Have so far spent the better part of four days travelling through systems using the DSS and FSS on new unexplored systems to find hotspots (concentrating mainly on the high paying minerals). Now here's the but although I am enjoying the new method after using well over 800 prospector limpets mainly going for the larger 'brightest' scanned asteroids I have made around 10 million. The process seems completely random even though, their own tutorial shows, the brightest scans highlighted show asteroids with higher yields of minerals I have only managed to find around six core deposit asteroids (in four days and 800 limpets). I think what finally made me realise this is just as frustrating as the old system was after spending well over two hours in a Void opal hotspot on a pristine icy ring I found one core asteroid full of, wait for it, Bromellite. These are not 'over mined' systems, some even are first discovered, so what is it that I'm doing wrong as reported profits far exceed reality atm.

 

[Ozram]

Was prepared to try the new mining concept as most other aspects of the update seem crippled with bugs atm, so loaded up and headed out to the less populated systems to give it a go. Have so far spent the better part of four days travelling through systems using the DSS and FSS on new unexplored systems to find hotspots (concentrating mainly on the high paying minerals). Now here's the but although I am enjoying the new method after using well over 800 prospector limpets mainly going for the larger 'brightest' scanned asteroids I have made around 10 million. The process seems completely random even though, their own tutorial shows, the brightest scans highlighted show asteroids with higher yields of minerals I have only managed to find around six core deposit asteroids (in four days and 800 limpets). I think what finally made me realise this is just as frustrating as the old system was after spending well over two hours in a Void opal hotspot on a pristine icy ring I found one core asteroid full of, wait for it, Bromellite. These are not 'over mined' systems, some even are first discovered, so what is it that I'm doing wrong as reported profits far exceed reality atm.

Takes a few goes to start recognising them. This thread might be of use: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...f-core-rocks-next-to-non-core-rocks?p=7301529

 

[NeilF]

If they balance the mining towards your ideas (not saying they're wrong) players will drop mining like a hot potato in favour of whatever else pays better?

Straw man I'm afraid...

There's no reason more balanced mechanics couldn't offer what ever level of income is wanted. Less, the same or more.

Unless your mining experience is different to mine, notice how little legacy, surface (outside motherlodes), and sub-surface you do.

Ie: Notice how little legacy, (regular) surface and sub-surface are in the game loop. Is that a good thing?

 

[Jukelo]

Absolutely yes. Regardless of where mining now stands in the grand scheme of things, within mining itself there is a huge disparity between deep core mining and the rest. It doesn't take much more effort, it doesn't take much more skill, but it pays a hundred times more than legacy mining. Something needs to be adjusted there as there is no reason to do anything else than hunting void opals if you're mining.

 

[13A]

I don't think the old school mining is completely dead, but it may be on life support.

After many runs looking for cores to rake in some cash, I went out with my old mining setup to unlock Selene Jean. I'd forgotten how relaxing it was to just sit and watch the limpets buzzing about whilst I lazily blasted rocks with my lasers. The only change I made was to add an abrasion blaster for the occasional 3P surface deposit. Also, wandering amongst the rocks looking for Painite is simpler than looking for cores. Just fire a prospector and see what it finds. No Painite/platinum/palladium? Move on and try another rock.

As for the new mechanics:

Core mining is enjoyable and profitable, once you've figured out the Pulse wave scanner.
Surface abrasion is a no brainer - just point and shoot.

The real let down is sub-surface. The idea is good, and it needs a bit of skill/practice; but the payback for the time and effort just doesn't seem worth it.

 

[13A]

I suppose the other way to keep old school mining alive would be missions; but they would need to make it worth the effort. Credits probably wouldn't lure people away from core mining unless it was ridiculous amounts of cash. I suspect it would need several G5 materials, or possibly large influence/reputation boosts.

 

[NeilF]

I don't think the old school mining is completely dead, but it may be on life support.

After many runs looking for cores to rake in some cash, I went out with my old mining setup to unlock Selene Jean. I'd forgotten how relaxing it was to just sit and watch the limpets buzzing about whilst I lazily blasted rocks with my lasers. The only change I made was to add an abrasion blaster for the occasional 3P surface deposit. Also, wandering amongst the rocks looking for Painite is less painful than looking for cores. Just fire a prospector and see what it finds. No Painite/platinum/palladium? Move on and try another rock.

As for the new mechanics:

Core mining is enjoyable and profitable, once you've figured out the Pulse wave scanner.
Surface abrasion is a no brainer - just point and shoot.

The real let down is sub-surface. The idea is good, and it needs a bit of skill/practice; but the payback for the time and effort just doesn't seem worth it.

Hence the suggestion for the PWA to be more aimed at finding what you want (the materials you're interested in), not "new mechanics", and for surface, subsurface and even legacy (if FD with to include it) to be involved in delivering the material(s) you're after. eg: At the moment opals and low temp diamonds etc don't seem to be obtained really by anything other than motherlodes which just seems bizarre balancing IMHO.

You should be able to get a good profitable return by mining via surface and sub-surface (& legacy)? Ultimately, finding a motherlode should be a nice icing to the cake, not the only think you eat!


And as for surface deposits, and possibly simply increasing their quantity/frequency (outside of motherlodes), hence the suggestion to farm them via an auto-turret, as the polar opposite techniques for sub-surface and fissures.

 

[Urbanski101]

I agree with parts of your post and you do bring up some interesting points.

The introduction of the new hyper-valuable minerals has made all other minerals largely redundant, why look for gold when Alexandrite sells for at least 20x as much.

The only time I can think of where you'd actively mine the lesser minerals is for a mission. That is another issue....why bother with lower value minerals at all now.

I think being able to mine the new and more valuable materials in lesser quantities through surface and subsurface deposits means players will use all the new tools and mechanics and it makes sense.

The PWA is a more tricky issue. The mechanic you're suggesting feels too simple and a bit of an "I win button" for mining. Finding the exact minerals you are looking for without much/any effort sort of defeats the idea of prospecting. It also makes the prospector drones largely worthless.

I also think the changes you suggest are an almost total reworking of the mining mechanic. The problem with this is that many players are making good credits from core mining and are largely happy. The only time I can recall FD doing this was on engineers where there was a very large and vocal group unhappy with the RNG and 'grind' involved with engineers.

The sheer volume of complaints meant FD simply couldn't ignore it. I don't see that sort of response with mining, the opposite in fact. Most players appear happy with the new mechanic. It's not perfect but so much better than what we had before.

In short...yes it needs some work & balancing but I think it will be minor tweaking and bug fixing, not the more wholesale changes you are asking for.

 

[NeilF]

I suppose the other way to keep old school mining alive would be missions; but they would need to make it worth the effort. Credits probably wouldn't lure people away from core mining unless it was ridiculous amounts of cash. I suspect it would need several G5 materials, or possibly large influence/reputation boosts.

I don't know... As it is, we have three new mechanics (surface, sub-surface and fissures) than seem to be balanced bizarely to the extent two are all but pointless (except surface via motherlodes), and a legacy mechanic which is hanging around for what purpose? ie: The PWA all but steers CMDRs completely away from it?

FD should include legacy mining in the basic gameplay loop, or simply get rid of it, and balance the new mechanics accordingly. eg: Lose legacy mining and drastically increase surface deposits across asteroids, possibly with auto-turret line-of-sight mining of them, to in effect take over from it (legacy mining).

 

[Amargosa]

The core mining (void opals) pricing is necessary to exist the way it does, because if it didn't, only questionable things like Quince in 2017 would be able to generate decent CR. This is the only way you can prevent people from seeking out "clever uses of game mehcanics". Some people are already fitting 5 abrasion blasters, but that's easy to fix by limiting ships to have only 1 fitted.

 

[NeilF]

The PWA is a more tricky issue. The mechanic you're suggesting feels too simple and a bit of an "I win button" for mining. Finding the exact minerals you are looking for without much/any effort sort of defeats the idea of prospecting. It also makes the prospector drones largely worthless.

Consider if the PWA (as suggested) returned a heat map for logical groups of minerals as per the hotspot. eg: In a painite hotspot, painite (obviously), palladium, gold and say silver. [This is a bad example, but go along with it]

The heat map would simply now give you likely candidates with their heat showing the combined quantities of those minerals. It could well be showing a good temperature because of a significant amount of painite, or instead gold...

So it's not an "I win button"... It simply points you to candidates with a hint of worth. A prospector limpet is still needed for true information.

How is that less condusive to "engaging" mining instead of a PWA that currently leads you to asteroid after asteroid after asteroid you have NO interest in at all? Except for our current lop sided resultant outcome of motherlode only mining?

The above suggestion for the PWA would result in you being guided to asteroids irrespective of surface, subsurface, fissure (or legacy)... You'd know there's a likelihood you're interested in the asteroid, and a prospector will reveal what amounts are in it, in what form. Most likely surface, sub-surface (or legacy)... If you're very lucky a motherlode.


At the moment mining (& the PWA) is basically hunt the motherlode. Is that good? Is that balanced? Is that the broadness of gameplay loop that was envisaged? Might a small revamp turn the gameplay on its head so income is still good, but it's more of a pyramid with more of that income coming from surface and sub-surface (& legacy) mining?

 

[NeilF]

The core mining (void opals) pricing is necessary to exist the way it does, because if it didn't, only questionable things like Quince in 2017 would be able to generate decent CR. This is the only way you can prevent people from seeking out "clever uses of game mehcanics". Some people are already fitting 5 abrasion blasters, but that's easy to fix by limiting ships to have only 1 fitted.

It's "necessary"?

So say currently 100mins of mining can give you say 100t of (motherlode) Opals, each currently "contrived" to give you 1.6mCR per ton. What would be so bad about 50mins of mining giving you 100t of Opals, at a less contrived price?

ie: Balance can come from the amount/speed you can mine at, instead of simply created a 400% price hike?

Indeed, FD could control that richness and frequency of minerals to give a far more interesting income. eg: Hotspots further outside the bubble have a "higher richness" so mining there will fill your hold quicker etc. ie: Reward players for finding them/going to them.

It seems simply hiking up a price 400% is a poor way to create a rewarding mechanics IMHO, when there's surely more levelled alternatives.

IMHO.