PvP Heal beams, Premium ammo synth and crimes on. Why so much crying over them?

[ryan_m]

Like, wasn't that part of the reason why the old heat meta was such a thing and got so much whining as a result? That people were getting mad that their stacked-up godshields were actually taking module damage?

lmao no. Heat meta was basically un-counterable. It beat every single ship 100% of the time, no matter what. A PvP fight during heat meta would go like this:

• Get pulled by a heat-meta ship
• Drop, instantly drop a heat sink and boost away
• Pray that your sinks don't cook off before you can high-wake out of the fight

There was no fighting back. If you got hit with a thermal shock/cascade weapon and you hadn't already fired off a sink, you were going to die. Nothing you could do.

 

[Spara]

Well assuming I haven't read the 56 page essay on how unbalnced the game is can you please add a tad more detail to your points?

I'll start with the big three you posted -

Premium Ammo Synthesis - Premium ammo is basically Elite's version of potions and temporary enhancements. There's a good reason that modern mmo's limit the effects of those potions in pvp situations- namely that they cause damage to scale in un-predictable ways. Premium ammo also offers way to exchange time directly for a distinct advantage. Given that ammunition is a consumable, one would need to farm constantly to maintain the advantage and this puts it out of reach of most players. Now engineering requires time too, but engineering gives a permanent reward. You can work on engineering over time and with a few hours a week end up with a combat ready meta ship that will last you through this entire expansion. If you spend the same time with premium ammo, you will have an advantage that lasts you through a single fight. Some people have the time to spend farming for premo- most don't. If they did significantly less damage or if the provided a utility gain rather then a DPS one, they might not be as taboo- but as it stands they give a huge boost that can close some significant skill gaps.

Healing Beams - A lot of MMO's have experimented with spells and effects that heal/deal damage and I personally think thats an interesting mechanic (I main'd a ret pally/holy pally in WoW). Other mmo's, however, also offer a plethora of skill based interrupts that can punish healers for sitting there and chain casting. Elite offers no such mechanism directly. As such, two healers can sit there healing each other and comfortably ignore everything else going on. Even cascade torpedoes - a mechanic that I think is broken, travel so slowly as to not be an issue unless the pilots using them quite literally shoot themselves.

In addition to there being no skill-based counter, there's also no DPS deficit for bringing healing weapons to the fight. This actually is the crux of their imbalance in elite and why I personally hate fighting against healing beams. If healing beams forced you to exchange a DPS slot for HPS then there would at least be a strategic decision needed in wing composition and ship construction. As it stands, the mechanic is broken because the amount of HPS on a target by huge healing beams combines with other broken mechanics like booster stacking that creates a Destiny Boss' level of damage soak, except on a player, and the healer can then turn and do an impressive amount of DPS on an opposing wing. Its a mechanic that just isn't very fun to fight against regularly, and honestly the only fun the community has with healing weapons is coming together to fight the few player groups that do constantly use these tools.

I do think healing weapons could be done in interesting ways, and the pvp community itself has come up with interesting mechanics that would make it more balanced. It would be great if Fdev focused on this and create a utility/support class of ship that could add a bit of a strategic meta to otherwise purely tactical wing fights.

Crimes On - This is my personal trigger. First, I'm not annoyed at legitimate players that leave crimes on because they don't want to be harassed. I'm annoyed by known PVPers and known PVP groups that turn crimes on specifically to annoy and then commence on pvping. That does nothing but encourage waking out of fights you think you might lose because honestly, who wants to spend thirty minutes flying back from whatever goober jailhouse the game sent you to. its obnoxious, its a total jerk move, and really dampens what would otherwise be fun fights. Not to mention, it also leads to a dumb game of "well they have crimes on, screw those guys - we're turning crimes on" which can create a weird feedback cycle if we forget to turn crimes off and get pulled by another group.

 

[Screemonster]

lmao no. Heat meta was basically un-counterable. It beat every single ship 100% of the time, no matter what. A PvP fight during heat meta would go like this:

• Get pulled by a heat-meta ship
• Drop, instantly drop a heat sink and boost away
• Pray that your sinks don't cook off before you can high-wake out of the fight

There was no fighting back. If you got hit with a thermal shock/cascade weapon and you hadn't already fired off a sink, you were going to die. Nothing you could do.

Oof. So actually broken, not the usual one we've come to expect of "waaah I'm not completely invulnerable this game isn't fair".

 

[Morbad]

These things exist, and I expect them to be used.

I'm not in a wing often enough to leverage regeneration sequence and I don't think I've ever used premium ammo outside of testing (my CMDR would rather save the materials for engineering or when they were actually a matter of survival, and how much damage his weapons do, while perhaps the difference between running or winning, is pretty much never going to be a matter of survival), but I certainly don't see anything underhanded about players having their CMDR use all the legitimate tools available to them.

That said, regeneration sequence, even after being nerfed, is comically unbalanced when leveraged well, and anyone trying to setup an event that's supposed to be enjoyable to watch or participate in would do well to ban it. Barring the use of premium ammo also makes sense, because it's easier and less wasteful for no one to use it than for everyone to use it.

My CMDR tends to leave crimes on when he's not looking for trouble and turn it off when he is. I do find it somewhat annoying as a player (and CMDR) when I'm attacked while I have crimes off by those who have crimes on, but ultimately, I consider using the environment against an opponent to be fair game, unless an explicit agreement has been made not to. Police intervention is usually pretty lackluster and only the notoriety gained after achieving a kill is even an inconvenience.

Healing beams are as broken as the rest of the engineering. But at least they only serve to keep people alive, I haven't heard the last time a healing beam was used to gank some poor Eravate Sidey...

You can't separate 'keep people alive" from being "used to gank", if the one being kept 'alive' is the ganker.

This was a friendly 1v2, but had my CMDR been pulled against his will, regeneration sequence would have been the difference between who had to flee and who was left, given similar loadouts:

[video=youtube;zcyw_n15Nao]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcyw_n15Nao[/video]

One heal beam can be overcome pretty easily in a wing fight but the main problem is when EVERYONE has them. In most games, if you spec into the healer role, you're significantly less effective as a damage dealer but in Elite, you can still do a ton of damage and be an effective wing mate. The lack of downsides to running heals is the biggest problem.

Personally, I'd like to see heal beams transfer shields from one ship to another so you could have someone spec into healing with a beefy prismatic and SCBs. That way, there is a fixed amount of MJ in a fight. At that point, the rate of healing/transfer doesn't matter because you can truly focus the healer and make them bug out instead of seeing a full wing pulling infinite MJ out of the ether.

I agree with the bulk of this, but I'd just remove the effect entirely. No point in balancing it, from my perspective, because even if it was perfectly balanced, I'd still find it silly and undesirable.

As I said in my post those that use premium are generally bad and use it to close the skill gap... and the typical response to those that crutch on it is as you can see "there is nothing wrong with it", premium should be removed entirely... it only serves to give an advantage to those willing to grind for it, and even then its super easy to grind for if you know where to go.

Personally, I'd completely removed all ammo synthesis; make materials consume cargo space; make non-ammo synthesis require it's own module and take about ten times as long as it currently does.

I suspect this is a terribly unpopular opinion though.

That sounds like the view of someone on the higher tiers of PvP.

Not sure it's that cool if your an average PvPer.

But I'm not a PvPer so who knows.

I'm a PvPer in the sense that my CMDR is frequently in direct, violent, confrontations with other CMDRs.

However, the experience I'm after is more along the lines of 'survival horror' than organized contests of skill/sport.

Aren't there different types of PvPers?

Trying to list every type of PvPer is like trying to name every color in the visible spectra of light. Even if you could, almost no one would agree where 'teal' ended and 'aquamarine' begain.

There was no fighting back. If you got hit with a thermal shock/cascade weapon and you hadn't already fired off a sink, you were going to die. Nothing you could do.

Unless you were in another heat meta ship that had 4-8 heatsink launchers and integrity mods on everything.

It's original incarnations were pretty silly, though I do think thermal shock and thermal cascade are effects that have been nerfed too heavily. Having to take heat into account to some degree in combat is a good thing, as are having multiple ways to bypass shields.

Oof. So actually broken, not the usual one we've come to expect of "waaah I'm not completely invulnerable this game isn't fair".

At the beginning of 2.1 I built a Corvette around dealing and surviving thermal shock damage. The loadout is a total lemon by current standards (it had like 600MJ of shields because of no boosters), but most people who weren't veteran PvPs just didn't know what to do when their ships started melting from the inside out.

There were counters, but it was a very binary thing. You either went all in on sinks and durability, or you got turned to slag. So, yeah the balance complaints were quite legitimate.

A few examples:

[video=youtube;4tI5prDuvZw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tI5prDuvZw[/video]

[video=youtube;EZ0Q-oZnXoY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ0Q-oZnXoY[/video]

 

[Slange Lands]

These things exist, and I expect them to be used.

I'm not in a wing often enough to leverage regeneration sequence and I don't think I've ever used premium ammo outside of testing (my CMDR would rather save the materials for engineering or when they were actually a matter of survival, and how much damage his weapons do, while perhaps the difference between running or winning, is pretty much never going to be a matter of survival), but I certainly don't see anything underhanded about players having their CMDR use all the legitimate tools available to them.

Personally, I'd completely removed all ammo synthesis; make materials consume cargo space; make non-ammo synthesis require it's own module and take about ten times as long as it currently does.

I suspect this is a terribly unpopular opinion though.


I'm a PvPer in the sense that my CMDR is frequently in direct, violent, confrontations with other CMDRs.

However, the experience I'm after is more along the lines of 'survival horror' than organized contests of skill/sport.

Commander Morbad, If you are more interested in 'survival horror' rather than contests of skill/sport, why your preference to remove all ammo synthesis, make materials consume cargo space, etc.? Like I said in my post, 'All's fair in love and war. ' Your listed personal preferences (remove ammo synthesis, etc.) make the game more confining and difficult and rewards skill and efficiency. The 'horror' dealt may be more limited in scope. Is it simply a matter of TTK or engagement time? Just curious.

That being said, I rather agree with you. [Edit: very much so for PvP, not so much PvE ]

Yes, trying to classify types of PvPers is perhaps impossible, but some blanket generalizations maybe useful for whatever reason, e.g. game design. It seems to me that the entire field of sociology attempts to define the undefinable.

Thank you.

o7

 

[Madrax573]

Ok so from the few people who have acually commented on these things I take away that these things aren't particularly a big issue but some people have a personal preference to their use etc.

So talking about each one, these are my thoughts:

Premium ammo: So 30% extra damage but requires work/grinding/PvE etc to gather mats for it etc. Sounds like it isn't used a great deal in general. So if a CMDR wanted to up-fight better/tougher/more enemies would the use of premium ammo be accepted or should they just faceplant into their targets and get a whuppin' ?

Crimes on: A little extra damage from the Cops that seems to be easily mitigated/ignored for the actual outcome of the fight yet people seem more annoyed at getting a bounty/fine etc and transported to a prison ship. So given that this is a mechanic to simulate crime and punishment it seems like it is working as intended. Oh but what about those looking for fights with actual PvP'er I hear you say.... you can do that already - its called anarchy systems or CQC. Didn't one of the PvP groups (PvP Hub IRRC) convert the San Tu system to anarchy for this specific purpose so there is a work around for you to have your fights against real PvP'ers etc. Just because you want to 'opt out' of the larger game rules just means you accept the ramifications of doing so.

Heal beams: These do sound as if they could do with some tweaking to allow for assistance but not totally over tank things.

One thing that seems to be missing from most of the conversations around PvP and especially those conversation about the crimes is that you are trying to enforce and engagement within a set of game rules. And in those rules you are often committing a criminal act by doing so. so you get fines/bounties etc. This is legitimate gameplay (i.e. within the rules and not an exploit) so it also allows for a counter play or white knighting as is often thrown around like it's a bad thing. What about the player who wants to play as Dog the bounty hunter... of course they are going to have crimes on and they will bait known pvp'ers/gankers/pirates into committing a crime so it gives them and excuse to combat them directly 'within the law'

 

[The Replicated Man]

Ok so from the few people who have actually commented on these things I take away that these things aren't particularly a big issue but some people have a personal preference to their use etc.

So talking about each one, these are my thoughts:

Premium ammo: So 30% extra damage but requires work/grinding/PvE etc to gather mats for it etc. Sounds like it isn't used a great deal in general. So if a CMDR wanted to up-fight better/tougher/more enemies would the use of premium ammo be accepted or should they just faceplant into their targets and get a whuppin' ?

Crimes on: A little extra damage from the Cops that seems to be easily mitigated/ignored for the actual outcome of the fight yet people seem more annoyed at getting a bounty/fine etc and transported to a prison ship. So given that this is a mechanic to simulate crime and punishment it seems like it is working as intended. Oh but what about those looking for fights with actual PvP'er I hear you say.... you can do that already - its called anarchy systems or CQC. Didn't one of the PvP groups (PvP Hub IRRC) convert the San Tu system to anarchy for this specific purpose so there is a work around for you to have your fights against real PvP'ers etc. Just because you want to 'opt out' of the larger game rules just means you accept the ramifications of doing so.

Heal beams: These do sound as if they could do with some tweaking to allow for assistance but not totally over tank things.

One thing that seems to be missing from most of the conversations around PvP and especially those conversation about the crimes is that you are trying to enforce and engagement within a set of game rules. And in those rules you are often committing a criminal act by doing so. so you get fines/bounties etc. This is legitimate gameplay (i.e. within the rules and not an exploit) so it also allows for a counter play or white knighting as is often thrown around like it's a bad thing. What about the player who wants to play as Dog the bounty hunter... of course they are going to have crimes on and they will bait known pvp'ers/gankers/pirates into committing a crime so it gives them and excuse to combat them directly 'within the law'

The majority of pvp groups will fight with crimes off. It's the ones that run it because they are "roleplaying" (13th) or just bounty hunting that people have an issue with. Its more an inconvenience than anything really.

 

[TEBORI]

madrax an example for C&P i hunt a wanted cmdr in cg. he has 1 mil bounty. he escapes with high wake in another system and i follow.
now he is clean and if i finish my job i am a murderer.
really?

the only counter for this is the KWS which needs one utility slot. so my ships combat power is less from the beginning.

 

[Morbad]

Commander Morbad, If you are more interested in 'survival horror' rather than contests of skill/sport, why your preference to remove all ammo synthesis, make materials consume cargo space, etc.? Like I said in my post, 'All's fair in love and war. ' Your listed personal preferences (remove ammo synthesis, etc.) make the game more confining and difficult and rewards skill and efficiency.

Part of my preference is simply that I don't like excessive handwavium. I like things to make sense.

An even bigger part of my preference is that meaningful logistics, resource management, and attrition are big parts of strategic, organic, combat. They are also almost completely absent from ED.

There is nothing to fight over and no consequence for failure. Victory in one encounter has no bearing on the next, which could occur seconds later, because the sort of QOL/ease-of-use mechanisms that people demand result in negligible turnaround times. People complain about the lack of mechanisms to facilitate PvP-as-sport, but there are even fewer to support any other kind.

Don't get me wrong, I like combat in ED and PvP in particular, I just see so many ways it (and much of the rest of the game) could be made better...most of which would start with a ground up overhaul of the core travel and trade mechanisms that underpin the whole series of games.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

madrax an example for C&P i hunt a wanted cmdr in cg. he has 1 mil bounty. he escapes with high wake in another system and i follow.
now he is clean and if i finish my job i am a murderer.
really?

the only counter for this is the KWS which needs one utility slot. so my ships combat power is less from the beginning.

Yeah, because it's all based on Jurisdiction.

If your target is smart he'll know where he can and cannot go in relation to his bounty. If you want to chase an out of jurisdiction bounty then you have to sacrifice a utility slot for a KWS. (Unless it's a superpower bounty, then you're golden).

I don't see the problem with this.

However, that's not really what the thread's about. The thread is really about what mechanics are generally deemed acceptable by the dedicated PvP community. And in my opinion the only thing that can be concluded (from this and past discussions) is that there is no grand consensus.

 

[Slange Lands]

Part of my preference is simply that I don't like excessive handwavium. I like things to make sense.

An even bigger part of my preference is that meaningful logistics, resource management, and attrition are big parts of strategic, organic, combat. They are also almost completely absent from ED.

There is nothing to fight over and no consequence for failure. Victory in one encounter has no bearing on the next, which could occur seconds later, because the sort of QOL/ease-of-use mechanisms that people demand result in negligible turnaround times.

There may be an exception to inconsequential handwavium warfare in ED, however, and that is the new Thargoid Incursion Conflict Zones. Trying to do these Solo is a delightful nightmare.

1. The minimum synthesis ammo requirements for the meta Gauss Cannon require guardian sentinel excreta. It's a significant commitment to get to the Guardian sites.
2. The constant barrage of caustic missiles and the length of time to actually complete an AX CZ almost require one to carry a decon limpet and cargo space thus reducing optional internals. Most of us should probably carry a Shutdown Field Neutralizer thus reducing utilities. The current meta also involves a lot of heat-sinks so less Shield Boosters.
3. There is a limit of 4 experimental hardpoints. However, there are three very different types of foe, whose optimal weapons sometimes do not work with the other two. For example, one cannot use a Gauss Cannon effectively on a Thargon swarm and using a Gauss Cannon on a scout requires superhuman skill. The remote flak cannon which is great for swarms is useless on the Interceptors hearts, etc. The hardpoint loadout is much more limited and skill based.
4.It's very expensive to get your modules hit. Thargoids are great at module damage. If you don't complete the CZ or defeat an Interceptor, you will probably lose credits.
5.The warfare is not inconsequential because stations will be repairable if the Thargoids are defeated.

I am hoping that FDev is learning and the mechanics of the AX CZ is very deliberate.

o7

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

Heal beams are frowned upon because they literally outpace any damage the game can throw at you, with no major drawbacks. Shield health is already hilariously inflated on many ships, this just makes it worse. They need some serious balancing. I will say they're nice for PvE, though lol.

As for premium ammo, that's kind of a gray area. Keep 'em out of duels, but under any other circumstances, I say smoke 'em if you got 'em. Kind of a dumb mechanic overall, considering what it takes to actually get them. I can fly to the center of the galaxy in a day, but I can't buy fancy ammunition at a port? lol, OK Fdev.

Crimes on is another thing that's kind of iffy. If you plan on initiating any PvP, it's generally frowned upon, especially if you turn them on mid combat. If you are simply attacked while minding your own business, that is the burden of your attacker. I keep my crimes off for PVP, but if I'm participating in PVE/non-combat activities, I leave them on.

 

[everstream]

Hi all,

I'm new here and not really a PvPer, at least not active searching for that. But I wan't to be ready for such an unpleasant encounter and not to have to run away only. For me this case is the one, where I say "ED is a perfect simulation of a real life". A pirate can attack a trader, who seems to be easy to beat. But there can be a "small" surprise, if the trader is smart and has invested his time and money into high-tech equipment. Everybody is allowed to use the whole technology available in the game. My "transformation" regarding this topic happened within the last two(?) months. The story in short: I was a PvEer, did a lot of engineering and had this build of my multipurpose Anaconda: Passenger/Cargo Anaconda. In PvE I felt myself already invincible, despite of never trying CZs, HiRes or even bounty hunting against elite wings. After becoming elite in exploration and shortly before becoming the same in trading - completely in Solo - I've gone first into Open and after short time even to Shinrarta. In Shinrarta I've started started doing passenger missions there. So it lasted not long, until I was ganked by a wing of three or possible four Cobras. Shield generator destroyed by reverbereting cascade, FSD disruption, rebooting thrusters - all the nice things. In the first moments hours and days I was very angry and swore to take my revenge. Now I could even thank to those gankers - they have taught me a lot, brought to reading huge amounts of information, made me better euipped and a little more skilled. During those two months I've read a lot in this forum and in the rest of the web, changed a lot on my Anaconda, tried out cannons instead of MCs, learned FA off a little ... and even got back to my Python, because it seems to be better in a fight against ships like Cobras.

... Back to the topic: I don't know exactly, what those gankers have used - some missiles were where, for Rev.Cas. probably torpedoes or even mines. But they used all the weapons and effects available and even attacked a peaceful passenger Anaconda in a wing. So, why should I not use all the features - even premium ammo and police support? This is exactly what I plan to do - further invest my time into grinding materials, convert them at material trader, and use in fight. Those, who has invested their time in becoming pirate, have to take a risk to be defeated by a "skllless" trader with gimballs, long range, premium ammo and other "unfair" technologies. Welcome to real life - don't complain if someone else wins the game using all the things which are available and allowed.

For the PvPers who search the "fair fight": just the same - a fixed plasma accelerator needs a lot of skill, but it deals much more damage as a gimballed cannon or MC. Everyone just chooses his weapons and techs.

 

[VincentUK]

Lots of different opinions from various PvPers, interesting to hear their views.

I watched some of the PvP league matches over the holidays, well edited and good commentary. Apart from seeing besieger, who was refereeing the matches in between crashing into the rocks and other participants, I don't recall seeing any of the commentators here. Is there any reason for that?

 

[Deleted member 115407]

Heal beams are frowned upon because they literally outpace any damage the game can throw at you, with no major drawbacks. Shield health is already hilariously inflated on many ships, this just makes it worse. They need some serious balancing. I will say they're nice for PvE, though lol.

As for premium ammo, that's kind of a gray area. Keep 'em out of duels, but under any other circumstances, I say smoke 'em if you got 'em. Kind of a dumb mechanic overall, considering what it takes to actually get them. I can fly to the center of the galaxy in a day, but I can't buy fancy ammunition at a port? lol, OK Fdev.

Crimes on is another thing that's kind of iffy. If you plan on initiating any PvP, it's generally frowned upon, especially if you turn them on mid combat. If you are simply attacked while minding your own business, that is the burden of your attacker. I keep my crimes off for PVP, but if I'm participating in PVE/non-combat activities, I leave them on.

This^

Thanks cknarf. My thoughts exactly.

Although I'd like to add that as more and more people learn about geo sites with the new DSS, people are going to be able to stockpile more synthesis mats faster than they were able to before.

 

[TEBORI]

Lots of different opinions from various PvPers, interesting to hear their views.

I watched some of the PvP league matches over the holidays, well edited and good commentary. Apart from seeing besieger, who was refereeing the matches in between crashing into the rocks and other participants, I don't recall seeing any of the commentators here. Is there any reason for that?

thats not correct

 

[Deleted member 115407]

Those, who has invested their time in becoming pirate, have to take a risk to be defeated by a "skllless" trader with gimballs, long range, premium ammo and other "unfair" technologies.

Speaking as a pirate, I love going up against players that can put up a good fight.

If it's all harmless, underclassed T-6s and T-7s it gets a little boring. And if that means I pull the wrong guy and he turns me into star dust, then so be it.

 

[ryan_m]

Lots of different opinions from various PvPers, interesting to hear their views.

I watched some of the PvP league matches over the holidays, well edited and good commentary. Apart from seeing besieger, who was refereeing the matches in between crashing into the rocks and other participants, I don't recall seeing any of the commentators here. Is there any reason for that?

The forums have largely been abandoned by PvPers aside from the people in this thread. Biased modding and general toxicity drove everyone out.

 

[VincentUK]

The forums have largely been abandoned by PvPers aside from the people in this thread. Biased modding and general toxicity drove everyone out.

Gotcha. I can certainly understand why some people would avoid online forums.

I was more interested in understanding why some of the more prominent PvPers, such as your good self, didn't participate in the PvP league. I would have thought it to be a great place to exhibit your skills. Surely having a higher number of participants would encourage FD to develop this part of the game properly? Instead, there were maybe 100 people who took part in the PvP league, whereas over 5,000 people are signed up for distant worlds. If you were the game developer, where would you put your resources based on those numbers? By the way, I'm not into exploration myself, and would genuinely like to see some love given to the PvP side of the game.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

...Instead, there were maybe 100 people who took part in the PvP league, whereas over 5,000 people are signed up for distant worlds. If you were the game developer, where would you put your resources based on those numbers? By the way, I'm not into exploration myself, and would genuinely like to see some love given to the PvP side of the game.