Does anyone actually enjoy engineering?

[Dillon Fallon]

Maybe if you look it all up on the internet and follow a step by step guide saying "go here, do this, then this, then this, and use this ship with this build," but for "regular" players it's going to be a whole different story.

From start to finish (finding the sites, figuring out what to do, figuring out how to do it, etc) it took me over 16 hours to get ONE blueprint. Subsequent sites still took over an hour each just to figure out the layout, the proper "key," fighting the sentinels, etc, and after around 20 hours and 4 sites (repeating sites in some cases) I still don't have the materials to unlock ANYTHING. I also don't have much in the way of real leads for how to find new sites or beacons (going to check the handful of blue dots in the galmap and see what comes of it), so who knows when anything will come of this venture.

I don't blame anyone AT ALL for relogging to acquire more materials. It seems like the materials you get, apart from the blueprints themselves, are random anyway. I'm supposed to get 21 Guardian Tech components for the FSD booster but for some reason even though it's only a G2 material I've only ever acquired one of them while other items (which I don't need or want) are piling up. At first I thought maybe they were found in some different kind of site or something but nope - turns out they are one of the many random drops you can get from shooting off those breakable panels, and for some reason they're just not appearing. The "smart" thing to do is absolutely to keep relogging and shooting those panels because if the RNG is skewed in the wrong direction you'll effectively NEVER get enough of what you need by doing things the "right" way.

I'm going to keep playing the game spoiler free and in "good faith" to see what comes of it, more out of morbid curiosity than anything else, but I have to say so far the entire project feels like a dead end at this point.

Anyway: looking things up on the internet, as well as relogging, are in my opinion both forms of "soft" cheating. If you want to play the game in good faith, you should avoid both. At the same time, it really is important for the designers to ensure that they build their game in such a way as to accommodate both of these playstyles, and Elite has mostly been a big fail in both areas, though the addition of the Codex and the changes to exploration are a huge step in the right direction and at least give me hope.

I must admit that while I agree with the soft cheating definition, I have done both of what you described, along with having done obviously broken 50 mil cr wing missions, etc. I obviously have no issue with anyone else doing it and it is going to happen when people with short attention spans (like me) play the game.

Looking at some of the gameplay though, for example Thargoid interceptors, which pretty much needs guardian weapons for someone to attempt. I'm not sure most people would have a chance of getting these without looking up what to do, or even have the first clue about killing the Interceptor. There is plenty locked off by simply having no understanding of what to do.

I wonder how much of the complaints about not enough being in the game is because people don't know how to even look for it. I agree that the codex is at least a step in the right direction though since it gives clearer indicators of where things are.

 

[mp4x]

Speak for yourself I wrote a guide on it. Nowhere near sixteen hours. Twenty five minutes out, twenty minutes to do the unlock maybe five minutes to a new one. Thats without relogging. There's no mystery key its just a relic.

Even quicker now.

Mind linking me to that? I wouldn't mind getting the fsd booster.

Cheers

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

Mind linking me to that? I wouldn't mind getting the fsd booster.

Cheers

CMDR Exigeous has a good guide:

[video=youtube;J9C9a00-rkQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9C9a00-rkQ[/video]

 

[M00ka]

Now for something completely different, I am going to discuss Engineering, I will refrain from discussing relogging as a mechanism, or whether one persons playing style is superior or inferior to someone else's.

Yes I have engineered some of my ships, one or two ships are fully engineered (as in every available module has been engineered), most of my ships have very basic engineering (normally FSD and PP for some reason). I haven't unlocked all the Engineers but undoubtedly will accomplish that sooner rather than later.

But on the topic of whether Engineering is enjoyable, to me it is just part of the game, something you do to get (IMHO) more benefits from the game. But I do have an issue with Engineers, and that is the entire storyline and mechanics of them. Consider this:

(1) You do 'something' and receive a nice letter from an Engineer basically stating they recognise what I did - whoopdi do for me I guess, someone knows me in the game. Then I have to perform some inane task to be granted permission to interact with said Engineer. The strange thing is often these tasks have little or no bearing on the Engineer, it is like FD used a lucky dip to work out the tasks.

(2) Anyhoo, I did what I had to do, and now I can engineer to my heart's content - oh lucky me. But FD made it even easier, I can now pin a blueprint. This magical blueprint now allows every idiot who has ever held a sonic screwdriver to replicate what this unique Engineer did - so much for copyright laws and proprietary retention of intellectual properties in the 34th Century. Still can't work out why some enterprising scoundrel hasn't started making modules based on these blueprints that every has and selling them off as new and improved modules. Come on, every station, every outpost, every surface settlement that has the ability (i.e., someone with the 34th Centuries equivalent of a multi-meter and a soldering iron) can exactly reproduce exactly what up until you got your greedy little hands on the blueprint what something that could only be accomplished by the Engineer.

(3) But you all cry, what about the Experimental Effects, they are the thing that truly makes these modifications wonderful. Yep, only an Engineer can apply those little enhancements until you die. Then any station, any outpost, any surface settlement that your little life pod happens to land at can, without fail, perfectly reproduce to the same exacting specifications, not only the engineering modifications you may have, but also those wonderous and so unique Experimental Effects that up until that point of time, could only be done by this mystical engineer.

Yep makes a lot of sense doesn't it.

I know it would be a massive PITA (and yes I expect abuse over it) but to my thinking it would make more sense that upon destruction of your ship you don't get anything back engineered on rebuy. How can you get that G5 Power Distributor magically made for your replacement ship when you don't even have the blue print for it. How can the experimental effect you had on your FSD suddenly be available since the only place you could get it applied is now 2,000lys away. It just doesn't make any damn sense!

So to answer the OP's question "Do I enjoy engineering" I will have to state no, simply because it doesn't actually make sense.

But to clarify, do I appreciate the end effects of engineering - yes I do.

Would I be upset if suddenly FD took the Engineers away - hell no I would probably do a happy dance around my study

 

[Lobey]

Bit late to this - but, yes I enjoy engineering. Elite is about the only game in which I find "crafting" to be relatively easy, quick and the rewards worth while.
This is probably mainly through being a pack rat and having shed loads of materials at all times , when I hit a station with material traders I tend to trade stuff around so I always have a reasonable amount of everything. I've never gone looking for a particular material and have always just traded if I need something on the "fly" - I dont care if it takes 250 of item "a" to produce 1 of item "b" (exageration) as I will usually have 250 of "a" at any given time.
I didn't "grind" any engineers either - just unlocked them as I was passing or was convenient - I have a few of the newer ones not unlocked , but as I don't seem to need anything they have, I'm not bothered - I will unlock them in time as I "go along".
Gaurdian stuff took a handful of trips - helped by having obelisk data from Ram Tah missions and early drop rates.
It's not perfect and probably could be improved , but overall it's fine - I just think most folk haven't experienced "real" grindy MMO's in general.
I also happen to think that neither Elite nor EvE have "steep " learning curves - gaming has become very mainstream and it dumbs down the genre as a whole.
Yes that's elitist... shrug ... it's what I find (young people today etc ).

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I've made a long break before Engineeres were added, and I had a really great time unlocking them all.
I remember that was the first time I actually outfitted mining ship and did everything properly... and I enjoyed it a lot.

Some aspects I haven't enjoyed that much, like dealing with Rares... but experience as a whole was positive. Locations like Dave's Hope lessen the frustration of getting needed mats, and now with material traders I think they are in a good spot.

The thing I really DON'T LIKE is the fact that they've killed any kind of personalization and feeling that you have something unique.

You know, that God roll after you have spent like 2 weeks of farming materials and you finally feel it was worth it because not many people have something like that.

I really hope they will bring this back in the future but in other form (probably less impactfull like those crazy rolled Railguns with almost no heat generated).

A misconception. That "god roll" you deem so prized is only that way because you perceive it as such for it's random rarity. Given enough time and / or the discovery of exploits the general playerbase would converge on such meta anyway. Or starve off trying. There is nothing like personalisation when the power juice gives you clear optimal paths. The average player just follows this path like sheep after some power grinders have cleared the way and found out.

 

[Flin]

Wow, there are more people enjoying the engineering game design that I realized.

Recent version is better than the prior iterations, but I still don't enjoy it for the reasons M00ka noted.

Collecting mats is fine: I now collect manually to train my flight skills.

I scan ships and data points simply as something I can do along my primary objective: don't actually follow wakes; but do check ship scan info.

Hate some of the unlock requirements: but at least I only need to do this once.

So, I have come to accept for what it is; urging for it to be better designed.

 

[Han Zulu]

Collecting mats is fine: I now collect manually to train my flight skills.

Try to do it FAOff.

 

[Flin]

Try to do it FAOff.

Am perfecting my skills with FAon with KB&M, but comes to think of it, might be better to train on FAOff.

Still can't manage multiple control inputs at a time using KB&M: so FAOff might be a better training option.

 

[Speedcuffs]

Try to do it FAOff.

Finally, after 18 hours of searching... Pharmaceutical Isolators!
I'll collect them FA off!

No.

 

[Bill Clement]

Have always enjoyed engineering, only part I don't like is the fact that we have engineered weapons (do love my long range plasmas though)

Can understand why many hate the process though, a lot of cmdrs decide they want a certain module engineered, then focus solely on that and complain about grinding.

Just play the game as normal & vary activities every now and again, your data and material list will build up naturally. No need to rush, having a pimped ship is not mandatory unless you are obsessed with being a KB/M PvP god in your head..

Here's the thing, I've been gathering mats all year. I tinkered a bit with some of my other ships, just to see how it works, thought 'meh' and went back to doing what I enjoy doing. In November, after taking yet another serious beating from an NPC with ridiculously strong shields and some magic weapon effects that my fellow forumites insist NPCs can't generate, I decided I was sick of barely escaping intact and decided to engineer some defences.
I ran out of mats in under a week!
So now I've got a part engineered ship, my mission runner, and an obsessive notion to finish it off. It's not a certain module I want, it's the whole ship. Do it once, for the ship I use the most and then consider which mods are worth having on my other boats.
Early results are sickening. It's like just getting the punchline of a particularly cruel joke that's been played on you, two years after everyone else started laughing! I'm melting NPC ships. No skill, no effort, just point and squeeze...

I spent the weeks running up to Christmas gathering mats and unlocking engineers, abusing nine Hells out of third party applications and devouring 'how to' youtube vids. I'm almost there, but I just can't be bothered any more. It's too random, it's too messy, it's too damn complex. Why so many mats? Why can't one trader trade every type? Why the ludicrous exchange rate?

It sounds like you're not being very efficient.
Comparing your progress to those that are is going to be very frustrating.

I'm not comparing my progress to anyone other than me, Bob! I know I'm not being efficient, that's why I mentioned the forum Gods who engineer an entire fleet in an evening, but my frustration is with my own progress, not anyone else's. Good on 'em, if they've figured out this whole fiasco. Me? I'm sick of it...

For me, the engineering update was the best update we had, because it forced me to try out bits of the game I'd previously been avoiding. I think if you're only really into one aspect of the game it can seem like needless hassle, but if you're like me and just wandering around trying different things it gives you some long-term goals. Without a big story, ELITE will always struggle to give you meaningful long-term goals.

Maybe I like it because I'm not in any real hurry to do things?

Danny, I (used to) spend my time playing as many different parts of the game as I can (could), while following a few self imposed rules. Things like no slave trading, no board flipping, no 'gamey' activities like Dav's Hope (after a quick lap to see what the latest craze is all about). But to gather mats I've had to concentrate on single activities to an obsessive degree. It's the first grinding I've ever done in the game and it sucks, big time!
Each evening I sit down now, I just ignore the ED logo, I don't have any notion to get back into the game.
Part of it is there are activities I won't countenance- I'm not going on a murder spree just to get some mats, no mater how much the forumites claim it'll speed up the process!
Mostly it's knowing how much effort it'll take to get my favourite ships up to the mission runner standard. I'm never going to get to play the game if I'm obsessing about grinding the next module.
I really wish I hadn't started, you know? I opened Pandora's Box...

Look at it from the other angle. No engineering. No collecting materials. No experiencing other play styles in the game to unlock the engineers. What would you be doing? Probably complaining on the Forum because ED is galaxy wide but only a meter deep. Hmm...There were a few threads about this in the past.

Not from me, I got accused of 'white knighting' for enjoying the game as it was. Now though, I'm not 'experiencing other play styles', I'm going out of my way to do things that generate materials and running around demented trying to gather as many as I can before they pop (what genius decided that mats should just evaporate if you're too slow hoovering them up?). It's the diametric opposite of experiencing alternative playstyles.

I visit the forum mildly regularly. Even I just understand what half the stuff is you talk about. Imagine a player completely oblivious to all the shortcuts found here and there scattered, just not in the game. You gotta be really lucky to find out. Without that meta knowledge you won't get anywhere anytime reasonable with the bloat that springs into your face.

I'll take the hit on that- this thread is a gold mine on 'how to', which was half the reason for my op! The other half is just venting about how pants engineering is... [haha]

Knowing how and when to run away is more important than engineering when it comes to never dying unless you want to.

Mate, that's a feed of horse! Besides, I'm sick of running. An A rated Python shouldn't have to run away from an NPC anything, it's not like MoM was allowed to keep the little devils smart enough to provide some challenge! But ships half my size were shrugging off my best shots and just melting my shields in a single pass. My Types aren't viable against, well anything, really. My smaller, faster ships aren't 'fast' any more- NPC's overhauled my Viper and Cobra so often I've parked them up. Just running away from NPCs is difficult enough, actually fighting them is suicidal in a vanilla build.

Add a dose of wizard dust and the whole picture changes. My part engineered Python is obliterating all comers!

Power creep has made standard ships obsolescent. Engineering is a requirement if you want to be able to play as anything other than a world champion interdiction winner.

There's no going back- I think I've been Red Pilled in Elite!

 

[House0fDerp]

So to answer the OP's question "Do I enjoy engineering" I will have to state no, simply because it doesn't actually make sense.

So what you're saying is we need permadeath that deletes your save, uninstalls the game and revokes your copy of the game?

I jest, but the call for things to make sense always seems to fly in the face of what's fun to play when you extrapolate too far.

 

[Kaocraft]

So what you're saying is we need permadeath that deletes your save, uninstalls the game and revokes your copy of the game?

I jest, but the call for things to make sense always seems to fly in the face of what's fun to play when you extrapolate too far.

Sell the game for a quarter and that's basically how arcade games work.

 

[Jenner]

I don't really enjoy engineering, no. Too grindy and I was never much of a min/maxer anyway.

 

[stooger]

I hate engineering and the whole FDs execution of this idea so much that even "beyond" didn't compell me to launch the game. I tried to play ED again after a 1,5 year break not long ago... about 3.3 beta time I think. But I just can't stand this crap. And ED was my dream come true game some years ago. Engineers are the bethesdas fallout 76 level of fail for me.

 

[BlackSpaceCowboy]

All I ask for now is that they get rid of raw material requirements that force you to do SRV planet rock hunting and data material wake scanning. These are garbage activities that nobody likes. Why force people to do them?

 

[BlackSpaceCowboy]

I jest, but the call for things to make sense always seems to fly in the face of what's fun to play when you extrapolate too far.

But engineering makes no sense and is the opposite of fun.

It's a terrible upgrade / crafting game mechanic. Almost all games are smart enough to make it less intrusive. You do stuff you enjoy and you passively collect loots or experience you use for upgrades or crafting. In ED you have to get into your SRV and shoot rocks for hours or scan wake after wake. Terrible game design.

 

[Amargosa]

Almost all games are smart enough to make it less intrusive. You do stuff you enjoy and you passively collect loots or experience you use for upgrades or crafting. In ED you have to get into your SRV and shoot rocks for hours or scan wake after wake. Terrible game design.

No, other games are no bit better. Raids and similar instanced contents aren't enjoyable at all, they're a necessary evil, only done in order to get gear and loot.

 

[Jenner]

Then can I assume you liked the original version better? Cause in my book that was the better one that led to much greater variety. Just a nightmare for the min/maxer in the first place. Not that it's worth to discuss anymore, that ship has sailed...
And, in respect to the OP, that hasn't anything to do with the process as that was pretty much the same.

Personally I'd prefer no engineering but that ship is even more sailed. Lol.

 

[Stealthie]

...but my frustration is with my own progress, not anyone else's. Good on 'em, if they've figured out this whole fiasco. Me? I'm sick of it...

See, this is something that's such a recurring theme within ED that I genuinely wonder if it's deliberate.

I don't mean that sarcastically either.
I wonder if somebody's vision of the ED universe is like a combination of Mad Max and HHGTTG, where nothing works properly, everything's halfassed and wrapped up in bureaucrasy and absurd regulations?

You see the same thing in almost every aspect of ED, from trivial things like the orange ship-HUDs (being practically the worst possible colour for a spaceship HUD to be) and chaotic module storage system (there is no system) to complex things like the way engineering, C&P and our new navigational toys work.

If it isn't a deliberate "philosophy" then I suspect it's simply that they realise that a lot of this stuff is intrinsically simple and they're trying to add "depth" to it by making it inscrutable, confusing and irritating.

I was at the Jameson crash site earlier, stocking up on AEAs, ADCs and CIF and it occured to me that there's no reason, really, why they couldn't just provide some locations that give you, say, 50 of this stuff at a time.
I mean, you're at the site and there's nothing to stop you re-logging as much as you want to so why not just cut out all the poop and set it up so that one scan of a beacon gives you a whole heap of data?

Ideally, if it was me, I'd try to set this stuff up so it was considerably harder to achieve but the rewards were much bigger too.
At, say, the Bug Killer site you'd be able to get heaps of mat's & data but the 'goids there would be, y'know, hostile, so you'd either have to scamper in and out while they were elsewhere, get somebody to distract them or try and kill them.

The Jameson site could be defended by, say, turrets and there'd also be Black-Flight ships parked nearby which'd attack you as soon as you arrived/spawned.

Even if this stuff was easy to beat, at least it'd be something more than a test of a player's willingness to re-log as many times as it takes to fill their quota of mat's.
And no, this isn't me suggesting FDev should do something to prevent re-logging at these places.
It's FDev who built a game which encourages me to bolt 8 Shield Boosters to my Corvette and encourages me to engineer them which, in turn, requires mat's.
They're the ones who created this paradigm so maybe they should take ownership of it and create stuff that actually works with it?