A tale of two development approaches - "legs first" vs "space first"

[Doozer]

I am making this thread to discuss two development styles, with special focus on the much anticipated feature known as space legs. The two development styles I will be focusing on is ground up - i.e. building a game around avatars, or "legs first" - vs top down - I.e. building the entirety of space and ship flight first, or "space first". These aren't perfect delineations, and it may not be exactly how these games developed, but it works for the point I'm trying to illustrate. I'll also mention that I have not necessarily played all the games I will be discussing, and am just going based on what I have seen in streams and discussions of these games. Any direct input anyone has from playing these games is welcome.

So some examples we can focus on that we can generally say use the "legs first" approach include Star Citizen and X4. First focusing on Star citizen, the hyper realistic, highly aspirational, but currently generally bug laden and disappointing game that we all know and probably hate. They have taken a serious approach to developing space legs first. Every ship they release has a highly detailed interior, with various intricate functionalities that you can use, or that are planned to be used in the future. You can get lost in some of the larger ships, and the ships are so exquisitely designed that there are videos of an architect reviewing them on YouTube. Bases and stations are equally detailed, with massive city scapes you can fly into and land, and then walk around in, grab a drink, buy stuff, etc. They have also worked very hard on the first person shooter side of things, which is anticipated to be a big part of the game eventually.

That said, the overall gameplay loop is lacking, and the currently explorable universe rather small. Only a handful of planets you can land on, and a handful of activities you can take part in. Of course they plan to have much more of both these things, but it's been half a decade and you can barely say that they have a game. It is certainly beautiful, and surreal to land in cities with such detail, but beyond that, there is not currently much to do, and it amounts to not much more than a tech demo at this point. So this approach is clearly lacking, since it has taken to long to get where they are, which isn't very far, and who knows how long it will be before they get much further.

Next we can look at X4, which has some form of space legs, but it is not really as detailed as Star citizen. No first person shooting or planetary landings. Sure you can get out of your ship, go to another ship, use console's, etc, but it really doesn't add anything gameplay wise. So what's the point of it really? It may be exciting at first, but overall it's more of a bonus feature than anything else. So this approach is also lacking, since they cut corners to make it possible, and it doesn't really add a lot to the game overall.

Finally, we can look at the top down approach, or space first approach. This is what elite dangerous has done. Focusing on making a detailed and expansive space for ships to fly around in, and based the gameplay on space and ships first, as a space sim should. They do plan to have space legs eventually, but it has not been a first priority. While this has led to much humming and hawing from the community, I think this was the right approach. The reason is because the way things are now, even if they never make space legs, I personally would be pretty satisfied with what we have, as would many others. Now if they do add space legs, and do it in a way that adds real gameplay, it will only make the game better. So the approach they've taken has given us a fantastic game in the short term, with promise of an even better game in the future. I think is the right approach overall, and I commend the team for having the foresight to go about things in such a way.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Anticipate in one hand, defecate in the other and see which fills up first.

I would also very much like to see this in Elite, as it would be the feather in the cap of what is arguably one of the best games in this genre. However, it must have the cap first or the feather is useless. So don’t, for your own sake, anticipate this. Not any time soon. It’s not coming in 2019. It’s not comin in 2020. Maybe by 2022, if we’re lucky.

I know, so many have said “If we could just walk around our ships...” but seriously think here. What would you do, other than look at consoles and lights, really? Yes, there are potentially and number of things you COULD do, but “If we could just walk around our ships” isn’t asking for any of those things. Remember: be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

 

[Leadfoot]

I'm all for space legs and if it's available one day as a DLC I'll buy it.

That said: there must also be a REASON for them to exist. I'd love to wander around inside my ship and look at stuff. Once that's done I doubt I'll do it very often (or ever again). Why? Did it already.

Now, if it's heading to the bar to meet up other commanders or hear the latest gossip for a clue of some kind (or to meet Jaques), yeah, that'd be fun. More importantly, remember those abandoned bases on small moons or planets? Broken airlock doors, etc? Those? Ever wonder what was inside. Yeah, that. Can't drive an SRV in there, can you. That'll be content for legs. EVA in space? Content for legs.

I'm patient. It'll come.

 

[CaptainCaboose]

I feel obligated to remind the readers that Star Citizen is not a game in its current state; it is, and has been since the first playable day, a very limited and very slowly expanding tech demo with a heavy emphasis on micro(and macro) transactions.

 

[xxThe_Dice_manxx]

I feel obligated to remind the readers that Star Citizen is not a game in its current state; it is, and has been since the first playable day, a very limited and very slowly expanding tech demo with a heavy emphasis on micro(and macro) transactions.

I have been watching what happens with SC lately and I simply cannot believe what the "Chairman" is getting away with. FTR (failure to report) videos are quite enlightening on the state of the game.

ED has its problems but it is still an entertaining game and slow but steady progress has been achieved since day one.

I think you would be seriously underestimating FDev if you think they have not been working on Spacelegs and atmospheric landings since the very beginning.

I expect an announcement in the next few months on the next expansion and wager it will be Spacelegs.

 

[zipline]

Well, IMHO as a newbie, fdev have got it right and I am loving this game.
Yes, I would love to land on an earth like planet, drive my SRV to the beach and watch those alien waves crash on the beach. Yes, I would like to get out of my SRV and walk along the sand and then dip my toes into the sea. But for now, I have plenty of other things to do whilst waiting.

 

[cpbtrading]

Oh look.. another hate SC thread, we're short of hate for SC here, so well done for making another thread. [haha]


Regards space legs, you need them for scale if nothing else. They give you a comparison that we are all familiar with i.e. us humans. None of us have any idea what these ships we fly actually would look like close up IRL, so just for comparison legs work fine.

 

[CaptainCaboose]

Well, IMHO as a newbie, fdev have got it right and I am loving this game.
Yes, I would love to land on an earth like planet, drive my SRV to the beach and watch those alien waves crash on the beach. Yes, I would like to get out of my SRV and walk along the sand and then dip my toes into the sea. But for now, I have plenty of other things to do whilst waiting.

You've got the right attitude. It's an outstanding game and one day, maybe we'll have it, but if not, there is always plenty to do in the meantime.

 

[Chris Simon]

Well, IMHO as a newbie, fdev have got it right and I am loving this game.
Yes, I would love to land on an earth like planet, drive my SRV to the beach and watch those alien waves crash on the beach. Yes, I would like to get out of my SRV and walk along the sand and then dip my toes into the sea. But for now, I have plenty of other things to do whilst waiting.

With features like space legs it's really a double-edged sword on devs.
I mean, it's a space flight simulator. With features that don't involve spaceflight... well, it's the question where to stop, really. Planets? Cities? Beaches? Romanceable NPCs? One has to draw the line somewhere before having to simulate the whole universe down to a molecular level.

Me, I'm fine with flying spaceships. I can go to the beach IRL. I can't, however, go and fly a space ship.

 

[seko]

I have been watching what happens with SC lately and I simply cannot believe what the "Chairman" is getting away with. FTR (failure to report) videos are quite enlightening on the state of the game.

ED has its problems but it is still an entertaining game and slow but steady progress has been achieved since day one.

I think you would be seriously underestimating FDev if you think they have not been working on Spacelegs and atmospheric landings since the very beginning.

I expect an announcement in the next few months on the next expansion and wager it will be Spacelegs.

I would tend to agree

 

[Dooguk]

Oh look.. another hate SC thread, we're short of hate for SC here, so well done for making another thread. [haha]


Regards space legs, you need them for scale if nothing else. They give you a comparison that we are all familiar with i.e. us humans. None of us have any idea what these ships we fly actually would look like close up IRL, so just for comparison legs work fine.

How can anybody hate something that creates so much laughter? Beats me.

Anyway. Legs when there is some gameplay attatched to them and not before.

 

[zipline]

With features like space legs it's really a double-edged sword on devs.
I mean, it's a space flight simulator. With features that don't involve spaceflight... well, it's the question where to stop, really. Planets? Cities? Beaches? Romanceable NPCs? One has to draw the line somewhere before having to simulate the whole universe down to a molecular level.

Me, I'm fine with flying spaceships. I can go to the beach IRL. I can't, however, go and fly a space ship.

Don't disagree with you. I don't thing fdev set out to create a game to end all other games ... although they've done a good job as I haven't played anything else since! But seriously, if I want to walk around and shoot people, I'll play doom or wolfenstein. ED does what it does very well, and if it adds even more, then I will not complain.

 

[Chris Simon]

Don't disagree with you. I don't thing fdev set out to create a game to end all other games ... although they've done a good job as I haven't played anything else since! But seriously, if I want to walk around and shoot people, I'll play doom or wolfenstein. ED does what it does very well, and if it adds even more, then I will not complain.

Of course I'm also hardly against adding more features and things to do in the game.
My dream when comes to space legs is being able to physically walk (float) to damaged modules throughout the ship and having to repair them manually, patching the hull after a battle in EVA, etc... Man can dream, right?

On the other hand, an old proverb says that one of the worst things that can happen to a man is for all his dreams to come true.

 

[cpbtrading]

Also, third person view.. NMS found, I think, that providing third person gave NMS scale, or better scale. When it was just first person, which I tend to play in the most, it lacked that scale feel. You were never quite sure how large or small things were. Now it has third person, it helps bring scale out in the game.

Here is a scale thing I did a while back in SE, it had a whole load of annotations with it explaining what I'm getting at, they have all gone.. But you still get an idea.

Its a long video so from 0 (start) to 2.30 is good and 7.50 to the end, probably the best for scale look.

[video=youtube;jA_qK23__jk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA_qK23__jk[/video]

The gravity you'll see on parts of the asteroid are provided by my onboard ship grav/gens, they provide an area around the ship that can have gravity. It's limited but it helps sometimes. Also we have mag/boots in SE, so that makes for an interesting walking experience, if you need to use them..

Also I agree, legs with nothing to do manually is pretty pointless. X legs are not really that well fleshed out for any real use. SC, SE, NMS have things you can do, that need you to have those legs, so well worth having them.

 

[moorison]

Also, third person view.. NMS found, I think, that providing third person gave NMS scale, or better scale. When it was just first person, which I tend to play in the most, it lacked that scale feel. You were never quite sure how large or small things were. Now it has third person, it helps bring scale out in the game.

Here is a scale thing I did a while back in SE, it had a whole load of annotations with it explaining what I'm getting at, they have all gone.. But you still get an idea.

Its a long video so from 0 (start) to 2.30 is good and 7.50 to the end, probably the best for scale look.



The gravity you'll see on parts of the asteroid are provided by my onboard ship grav/gens, they provide an area around the ship that can have gravity. It's limited but it helps sometimes. Also we have mag/boots in SE, so that makes for an interesting walking experience, if you need to use them..

Also I agree, legs with nothing to do manually is pretty pointless. X legs are not really that well fleshed out for any real use. SC, SE, NMS have things you can do, that need you to have those legs, so well worth having them.

It was surprising how large the asteroids are in NMS changing the camera perspective for the first time. Enemies that are avatar-scaled would be unrecognisable in open space, thanks to the different default speeds. I guess VR would make some difference but I think since real or virtual vehicles are perceived as extensions of ones body, that at some point the human speeds and sizes are meaningless.
Space Engineers is a game that should be named in these comparisons, I tend to forget it myself. It is interesting how different and involved the controls are compared to NMS for example, the most similar game of those named before.

It is important what you can do while controlling a first person human sized avatar, if it is just walking around a few rooms like in EVE it will be underwhelming, regardless of role playing potential. It was said that the area inside the larger Orbis station rings is comparable to the GTA 5 map size, how much gameplay would be in there and could it be seen from outside through the glass ceiling?

 

[cpbtrading]

It was surprising how large the asteroids are in NMS changing the camera perspective for the first time. Enemies that are avatar-scaled would be unrecognisable in open space, thanks to the different default speeds. I guess VR would make some difference but I think since real or virtual vehicles are perceived as extensions of ones body, that at some point the human speeds and sizes are meaningless.
Space Engineers is a game that should be named in these comparisons, I tend to forget it myself. It is interesting how different and involved the controls are compared to NMS for example, the most similar game of those named before.

It is important what you can do while controlling a first person human sized avatar, if it is just walking around a few rooms like in EVE it will be underwhelming, regardless of role playing potential. It was said that the area inside the larger Orbis station rings is comparable to the GTA 5 map size, how much gameplay would be in there and could it be seen from outside through the glass ceiling?

I agree, if it's simply walking around with no other function, whilst better than nothing, would probably be something a dev wouldn't bother with. Especially if they have already got a scale for the game, that may not suit a player character.

In Space Engineers the player's character can do all sorts of things, mine, carry, fps, build, repair etc, plus many anim/body positions to use. So it's an integral part of the game.

Scale in games for me, is very important. It gives the player a really good idea of the environment around them, if they have something familiar to compare to, none of us know what a space ship would look like close up, or asteroids etc. So having this comparison is important.
It won't be important for other players and that's fine, it's just my view.

I look for instance at the interior of ED stations, to me the buildings and also in particular the traffic going around those roads in stations. It all looks very toy'ish. I would love to be able to get out of my ship and have a good look around. It would be nice to have other functions, maybe not as detailed as SE, but at least something to do.

I also realise SE is far more detailed than most space games we talk about here (under the bonnet wise). So not every dev will see the need, depending on the detail in the game they're building and how involved they want the players to get.

As for the OP, I think legs should be first in a game, then scale around the character. I'm not a dev and no doubt there are many reasons why this might not be the way to go. But I like scale to be realistic, SE provides that. NMS does to a good degree. It would be nice to be able to get out of our ships in NMS and float around and interact with asteroids and so on, but still.
I would also love to do all these things in ED.

 

[AkenBosch]

Regards space legs, you need them for scale if nothing else.

This.

This.

I get that most people want "legs" to be there to bring rich, deep, articulated and compelling gameplay for hundreds upon hundreds of hours of unadulterated gaming amazement but....that's totally not a mandatory requirement of such a feature.
Why do most people prefer to have cockpits to interact with when flying their ships in their space games? That's not a strict requirement of gameplay, you can pretty much do the same stuff flying as a camera in space with a series of overlay panels for the various ships functions. We like that for the immersion it brings, the feeling of actually being there, an avatar physically inside the ship and using its many futuristic systems. But in the end, we're still just a camera in space, only with the above overlay panels framed in some fancy graphics we can't move away from.

What "space legs" add, first and foremost, is the ability to move away from those "fancy overlay panels", and enhance our feeling of physically being our avatar by not only looking around at some panels with our bottom nailed to a seat, but making possible to move away from those panels, around those panels, outside of our ship, seeing that we're not just flying a camera in space, but we are a physical entity actually interacting with other physical entities. You won't necessarily be doing more stuff than you were doing before, but if you'll probably enjoy and appreciate more the suff you are doing. It will somehow have "more meaning", for the simple fact that you'll feel more immersed in the game world.

"Once I've got up, walked around a bit and seen stuff, I'll probably won't be bothered to do that any more" - yes that's probably true. Some people likes to play their games to crunch numbers and achieve stuff, and that is perfectly fine and they'll probably feel such a feature to be a pointless one once given a quick look at it. Yet people playing in different ways and searching for different kind of experiences in game, will still have such possibility available to them, just another layer added to the total game experience. When playing a game like Skyrim or The Witcher, I'll be the first wanting to take shortcuts and fast travel from a place to another on the map after some hundred hours of playing. Yet, the possibility to simply make the long walk or going there by horse enjoying the scenery is still there available to me, the moment I'd eventually feel like just taking in the game world. Even if you don't do it, it's good to know you just could.

For me, space legs feels just about the same. Glad if they bring with them new gameplay mechanics, fps action, better NPC interactions, you name it. But if they don't they're just not to be scoffed at. To better appreciate the world you are playing in, the scale of the things you are interacting with, is still and will always be a meaningful addition to any game.

This is a T-9, parked on a platform, a literal flying palace. A huge ship, we can glimpse the pilot seat inside the cockpit and try to correlate that to how it would be to be standing there, below the ship at ground level or on its loading ramp. Must be an impressive sight.

Spoiler

Now this is a Peregrine from X4, a ship classified as "bomber" produced by the Teladi race:

Spoiler

See that tiny chap there on the right? Yes, you are there, that's your ship. (also, bomber my a%%, that looks like a full-fledged gunship to me )

I don't need to speculate it must be an impressive sight, I can see it is one.

Spoiler

That's just what space legs need to be doing for me.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Design should be created in the head first, not some body appendages. Then we'd see better games, too.

 

[MTBFritz]

I m not sure if a good combination can be made with these features. Both demand detailed and intricate mechanics to stand out and engage the player so if you dont want to increase development time by 4 or 5 (probably more) you have to focus on one first. That first attempt needs to be up-to-snuff compared to the competition in order to justify interest and investment. As we are talking years in development time its highly doubtful that whichever player group doesnt get its first dose upon release will stick around for the other half to get completed as well.

ED is famous for being a solid/good Space-sim when you want to experience space flight. I dont think that any FPS fan would even THINK about ED when it comes to looking for another game to add to the library. The detailed flight mechanics come at a prize tho. The whole game is based off space ships and the flying of ships. Years down the line the argument that "space legs need to be justified, cant simply add space legs for the sake of space legs" becomes more and more important because for a game like ED...introducing space legs in a manner that would give em a purpose is basically a second full game so you have to think development cost and time again and match it with current interest/potential sales and seeing the overall population of ED I doubt that this will happen.

I m not sure if complexity is a valid excuse because while the planning and design would be overwhelming for somebody like me we are talking about industry professionals who have the knowledge and practice to tackle such a behemoth. So its probably not impossible just very very hard and whenever somebody claims to be able to do it I expect results and not be comforted with lines like "you know...its really hard" down the line when nothing comes together.

The examples which tried to combine both features at the same time (think NMS or Helion) result in either basic functionalities for both or a drastically reduced world size. Which isnt necessarily bad mind you. Most things have to start small and grow from there. In case of NMS I dont think the game will ever increase complexity for either part but maybe thats something we can hope for in NMS 2. Helion looks awesome and increasing world size might be possible tho we are probably never gonna get a "fully seamless world" from it.

Star Citizen seemed to have the FPS part down when it comes to looks. But they simply struggle from there both in order to find something for the FPS mechanic to doits complexity compared to released FPS games and it is downright horrendous when it comes to space flight. X4 is a game that offers both but doesnt convince in either. ED is still superior in flight feel (IMO) and the activities on space legs are rather limited, serving more as immersion-enhancers rather then being fully fleshed out game mechanics. But its biggest strength is of course the game world and your role in it.

X4 is probably the best attempt at combining both at the moment but it sacrifices looks (dont get me wrong...ships looks absolutely stunning and the fact that you can enjoy them without a monster PC and at great frames is a definite plus) for functionality. It could probably be continued or build upon to provide more features and content but again....the current sales have to justify the additional development cost and the base game needs to have an open end to allow such modifications.

While demand is there players have the tendency to always want more then is possible and get bored quickly forcing companies to quantify said demand. Thats probably the main reason why such games are on the backburner or "sample the waters" with first underwhelming attempts...when you compare them to industry behemoths like any of the current MOBA or BR games on the market.

Star Citizen promised the whole dream in one go but by now we can see that it was a dream. If you ignore the trolls or shills it becomes pretty apparent that the involved company didnt have a design for the game when they started, seem to have lost focus by now and are going through massive amounts of resources which looks like a total waste given the results. While you can argue the reasons for its current state and bleak future the project has amply demonstrated how absolutely MASSIVE such a game is when it comes to production and design and funding is simply half of the effort. The people involved in the development "have to be" simply genius level to make this work if you want a result that looks like Star Citizen and feels like either ED or CoD because face it....thats what gamers demand.

The simple truth is that while it all sounds so easy on paper (you got FPS and space-sim already....just "slap" it together) the effort involved would probably be more like TEN TIMES the result and I dont think profit-oriented companies will go for that without most of the groundwork being done. And games like NMS and x4 represent that ground work.

So in conclusion I think we are getting there in time. Its probably still a few years off but attempts are being made. Our job as "funders" is to support the right people for the job else we are burning money and delay the super game even more. Small steps at a time is the key here. You wont be able to "force" it by simply throwing money at it as Star Citizen shows very clearly.

 

[Mole HD]

This.

This.

I get that most people want "legs" to be there to bring rich, deep, articulated and compelling gameplay for hundreds upon hundreds of hours of unadulterated gaming amazement but....that's totally not a mandatory requirement of such a feature.
Why do most people prefer to have cockpits to interact with when flying their ships in their space games? That's not a strict requirement of gameplay, you can pretty much do the same stuff flying as a camera in space with a series of overlay panels for the various ships functions. We like that for the immersion it brings, the feeling of actually being there, an avatar physically inside the ship and using its many futuristic systems. But in the end, we're still just a camera in space, only with the above overlay panels framed in some fancy graphics we can't move away from.

What "space legs" add, first and foremost, is the ability to move away from those "fancy overlay panels", and enhance our feeling of physically being our avatar by not only looking around at some panels with our bottom nailed to a seat, but making possible to move away from those panels, around those panels, outside of our ship, seeing that we're not just flying a camera in space, but we are a physical entity actually interacting with other physical entities. You won't necessarily be doing more stuff than you were doing before, but if you'll probably enjoy and appreciate more the suff you are doing. It will somehow have "more meaning", for the simple fact that you'll feel more immersed in the game world.

"Once I've got up, walked around a bit and seen stuff, I'll probably won't be bothered to do that any more" - yes that's probably true. Some people likes to play their games to crunch numbers and achieve stuff, and that is perfectly fine and they'll probably feel such a feature to be a pointless one once given a quick look at it. Yet people playing in different ways and searching for different kind of experiences in game, will still have such possibility available to them, just another layer added to the total game experience. When playing a game like Skyrim or The Witcher, I'll be the first wanting to take shortcuts and fast travel from a place to another on the map after some hundred hours of playing. Yet, the possibility to simply make the long walk or going there by horse enjoying the scenery is still there available to me, the moment I'd eventually feel like just taking in the game world. Even if you don't do it, it's good to know you just could.

For me, space legs feels just about the same. Glad if they bring with them new gameplay mechanics, fps action, better NPC interactions, you name it. But if they don't they're just not to be scoffed at. To better appreciate the world you are playing in, the scale of the things you are interacting with, is still and will always be a meaningful addition to any game.

This is a T-9, parked on a platform, a literal flying palace. A huge ship, we can glimpse the pilot seat inside the cockpit and try to correlate that to how it would be to be standing there, below the ship at ground level or on its loading ramp. Must be an impressive sight.

Now this is a Peregrine from X4, a ship classified as "bomber" produced by the Teladi race:

See that tiny chap there on the right? Yes, you are there, that's your ship. (also, bomber my a%%, that looks like a full-fledged gunship to me )

I don't need to speculate it must be an impressive sight, I can see it is one.


That's just what space legs need to be doing for me.

Excellent post.

I think what sold the space legs thing for me was the first time I walked up the rear ramp in my little Cutlass in SC and walked past the stacked cargo to reach the cockpit. As much as SC has many, many things wrong with it, this is the one thing they got right. I really can't describe how much of a difference that simple thing makes...

Everyone I've read discussing the Space-legs thing always wrongly assumes the primary function is for the FPS aspects. Aside from very rarely, I've never dabbled in it, especially in SC...but that sheer sense of scale the perspective adds to a game with space ships can't be just waved away by glibly dismissing it as a mere offshoot of an FPS pew focus.

Spoiler