Request for clarification concerning galmap and system states...

[Aashenfox]

I wonder if anyone knows and if not, if FD could chime in, please...?

Now that a controlling faction can have three states, yet, the galaxy map is only capable of displaying one, how is the 'displayed' state decided on the galmap?

Do the various states have priorities in terms of significance? For example, if a system is in boom, outbreak and war, is one of these MORE likely to be the one displayed on the galmap, or rather is one a 'primary' state? If one IS a primary state, how is the primary state determined? Is it always economical state? Military State? Civil state? Or is it the last state that changed?

Thanks in advance for any insight...

 

[Aashenfox]

bump

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

Not a dev, but extensively researched for mat farming purposes. These were my conclusions (again, not 100% certain so dev conf would be nice):

1. Gal map shows state of controlling faction in that system
2. eddb (and other such tools that utilitze the same data) search tools also utilize state of controlling faction in that system (assuming they've had an up to date push from a CMDR)
3. However, HGEs can spawn for any faction in the system. For instance, I collected G5 mats that require war state in a system that was not shown as war in gal map, because the HGE was tied to a non controlling minor faction who was at war in that system (you'll always see a faction listed in the upper right near where the timer for an HGE is)

I suspect 3 was always the case, but is just now more of a big deal since there are more combinations possible with factions in different states per system.

Effectively though, there is zero way to search with either in game or 3rd party tools.

Hope this helps. o7

 

[Aashenfox]

Not a dev, but extensively researched for mat farming purposes. These were my conclusions (again, not 100% certain so dev conf would be nice):

1. Gal map shows state of controlling faction in that system
2. eddb (and other such tools that utilitze the same data) search tools also utilize state of controlling faction in that system (assuming they've had an up to date push from a CMDR)
3. However, HGEs can spawn for any faction in the system. For instance, I collected G5 mats that require war state in a system that was not shown as war in gal map, because the HGE was tied to a non controlling minor faction who was at war in that system

I suspect 3 was always the case, but is just now more of a big deal since there are more combinations possible with factions in different states per system.

Effectively though, there is zero way to search with either in game or 3rd party tools.

Hope this helps. o7

Thanks for the support and the bump.

1. Yes, anythign else would be incredibly stupid.
2. eddb has been updated now with triple state information, so that's something - https://eddb.io/faction/44284
3. This is the case since 3.3

 

[Franc Kaos]

...
2. eddb has been updated now with triple state information, so that's something - https://eddb.io/faction/44284
...

Just curious, what does - Active States: None mean and how have Fdev created this huge change in system states without having a way to show it in game (or does it show in the system map)?

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

1. Yes, anythign else would be incredibly stupid.
2. eddb has been updated now with triple state information, so that's something - https://eddb.io/faction/44284

Re 1, the map is basically unusable on PS4 due to some buggy behavior - some systems simply cannot be selected no matter what the zoom or angle. So I think the whole thing is incredibly stupid! But more seriously, having it show all active states in system would make more sense to me, although require some rework of the GUI. I don't personally care because I always just use 3rd party tools on a laptop and then type in the system name I want, skipping gal map GUI as much as possible.

RE 2 that's a good point, I had in mind the search boxes but I was imprecise. I had already used that display you linked to while doing my mats research, and they continue to do good work over there.

o7

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

Just curious, what does - Active States: None mean and how have Fdev created this huge change in system states without having a way to show it in game (or does it show in the system map)?

It shows in system map where it lists the factions. ASAIK it is inaccessible in gal map, just one more reason to skip gal map and use 3rd party sites.

 

[Aashenfox]

Just curious, what does - Active States: None mean and how have Fdev created this huge change in system states without having a way to show it in game (or does it show in the system map)?

Yes, each faction can now have three states and there is no way to know what they are unless; you are in the system or use a 3rd party tool, or the faction is affiliated with your squadron.

That's why the request for clarification.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

Yes, each faction can now have three states and there is no way to know what they are unless; you are in the system or use a 3rd party tool, or the faction is affiliated with your squadron.

That's why the request for clarification.

I was under the impression it wasn't up-to-3 states per faction, but instead the faction could be in a different state (or none) in every system it occupies. At least, that was the understanding the Aisling PP BGS team gave to everyone before I quit that discord (and they seemed to know their stuff) as well as how I interpret the Background Simulation Changes - Multiple states spoiler tag content in the roadmap thread here.

So if factionX is in 6 different systems, it could have up to 6 states, but each state only applies to one system. The same state can be duplicated (so MyFavoriteFaction could be at war in SystemA, famine in SystemB, war in SystemC, none in SystemD, boom in SystemE, and bust in SystemF for example).

What is the source of the 3 states per faction? Not trying to be argumentative, just to understand.

 

[Aashenfox]

I was under the impression it wasn't up-to-3 states per faction, but instead the faction could be in a different state (or none) in every system it occupies. At least, that was the understanding the Aisling PP BGS team gave to everyone before I quit that discord (and they seemed to know their stuff) as well as how I interpret the Background Simulation Changes - Multiple states spoiler tag content in the roadmap thread here.

So if factionX is in 6 different systems, it could have up to 6 states, but each state only applies to one system. The same state can be duplicated (so MyFavoriteFaction could be at war in SystemA, famine in SystemB, war in SystemC, none in SystemD, boom in SystemE, and bust in SystemF for example).

What is the source of the 3 states per faction? Not trying to be argumentative, just to understand.

No worries you now have Civil state (happy vs unrest), Military state (none vs war) and economic state (boom vs bust). Outbreak and famine are civil state I think, and the other niche states fit into that model. I've been trying to gather data, but it's very random, VERY random.

So when an HGE is spawned, it could belong to any faction, but it could also belong to any state of that factoin (or at least, that's what I'm trying to determine in this thread, if the HGE will be tied to a higher priority state, either economic, civil or military, or maybe a specific state such as outbreak takes priority, I know it doesn't, just saying, maybe other states are 'stronger'). I've definitely had HGEs in EZ Aquarii from the same factoin, using their economic state at the time (none) and also their military state (war), and the materials inside also seem to be randomly chosen (none state mats in war state HGEs, but not vice versa, yet, which is interesting on its own). Most factoins and systems are still in a state of none across the board (thanks to the BGS reset) and the second and third states only actually come into play when they happen (naturally, cos no state is 'none').

P.S. If you're looking for a new squadron and you're sick of simpering silver spoon imps, give me a shout, consider that an invite, I like the way you think, diagnostically.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

No worries you now have Civil state (happy vs unrest), Military state (none vs war) and economic state (boom vs bust). Outbreak and famine are civil state I think, and the other niche states fit into that model. I've been trying to gather data, but it's very random, VERY random.

So when an HGE is spawned, it could belong to any faction, but it could also belong to any state of that factoin (or at least, that's what I'm trying to determine in this thread, if the HGE will be tied to a higher priority state, either economic, civil or military, or maybe a specific state such as outbreak takes priority, I know it doesn't, just saying, maybe other states are 'stronger'). I've definitely had HGEs in EZ Aquarii from the same factoin, using their economic state at the time (none) and also their military state (war), and the materials inside also seem to be randomly chosen (none state mats in war state HGEs, but not vice versa, yet, which is interesting on its own). Most factoins and systems are still in a state of NONE across the board and the second and third states only actually come into play when they happen.

That makes sense now that you explain it that way, but I can only react... oh wow. They made it even more opaque and non intuitive.

P.S. If you're looking for a new squadron and you're sick of simpering silver spoon imps, give me a shout, consider that an invite, I like the way you think, diagnostically.

Same to you, re diagnostics. Appreciate the offer, but just joined CODE after an amicable parting from Pileus Libertas (source of the manatee lore, if you're aware of that whole bit of silliness).

Now I can actually liberate imperial slaves (last week's CG had Aisling pilots hauling them) by "negotiating" with Imperial pilots after I manifest scan slaves in their cargo. I know I could do that too as a dirty Fed with you guys, but I was so disgusted by the game mechanics of powerplay I just can't muster any enthusiasm for any of the powers, so it's the pirate's life for me. Yarrrgh!

 

[babelfisch]

That makes sense now that you explain it that way, but I can only react... oh wow. They made it even more opaque and non intuitive.

Regarding the BGS that's a good thing. The point of the BGS is not to be intuitive but to be a simulation of the galaxy. I can see how that is a problem for HGE's, maybe rules need to be reconsidered. I hope the BGS stays as it is though, if anything it should be made more complex.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

Regarding the BGS that's a good thing. The point of the BGS is not to be intuitive but to be a simulation of the galaxy. I can see how that is a problem for HGE's, maybe rules need to be reconsidered. I hope the BGS stays as it is though, if anything it should be made more complex.

A minor faction that wants to expand to a specific nearby system should first need to fill every system closer than that one with the maximum number of factions, since that's the only way to direct expansion? That's a good simulation of the galaxy?

Turning in one tiny combat bond at a time, basically flying back and forth from a station with a moment of pew pew now and then, is the most efficient way to win a war?

I feel the actual galaxy is way more intuitive than the BGS.

I heard they finally reined in easy transaction accumulation via murderhobo'ing NPCs in solo for INF-, so I guess that's good at least, I guess.

If the people who play deep BGS are happy with the changes, then I'm all for those changes.

I just personally found BGS a huge turn off, and not because I'm not analytical enough to piece out how it worked. None of it seemed fun, and the non-intuitiveness of it seemed like downright work-anti-fun.

Turns out I just like the occasional unscripted CMDR interactions and feeling like I'm in a big space jet going VROOM VROOM and PEW PEW PEW.

EDIT and obviously spending way too much time on forums ;-) o7

 

[babelfisch]

A minor faction that wants to expand to a specific nearby system should first need to fill every system closer than that one with the maximum number of factions, since that's the only way to direct expansion? That's a good simulation of the galaxy?

Turning in one tiny combat bond at a time, basically flying back and forth from a station with a moment of pew pew now and then, is the most efficient way to win a war?

I feel the actual galaxy is way more intuitive than the BGS.

I heard they finally reined in easy transaction accumulation via murderhobo'ing NPCs in solo for INF-, so I guess that's good at least, I guess.

If the people who play deep BGS are happy with the changes, then I'm all for those changes.

I just personally found BGS a huge turn off, and not because I'm not analytical enough to piece out how it worked. None of it seemed fun, and the non-intuitiveness of it seemed like downright work-anti-fun.

Turns out I just like the occasional unscripted CMDR interactions and feeling like I'm in a big space jet going VROOM VROOM and PEW PEW PEW.

EDIT and obviously spending way too much time on forums ;-) o7

Sorry, it seems you completely missed the point. I was talking about having multiple BGS states per faction per system. I thought that's clear since it's related to the topic.

 

[Aashenfox]

If the people who play deep BGS are happy with the changes, then I'm all for those changes.

We are not.

Go to bed!

 

[Vardaugas]

You know what would be interesting? A new filter that checks for faction states in a system. And the more factions in a system are at the filtered state, the brighter the dot on the map becomes. With the new HGE system, that information would be worth gold, imho. Then sort by population and you're good to go.

 

[Aashenfox]

You know what would be interesting? A new filter that checks for faction states in a system. And the more factions in a system are at the filtered state, the brighter the dot on the map becomes. With the new HGE system, that information would be worth gold, imho. Then sort by population and you're good to go.

I love the idea but fear the coding effort.

 

[Vardaugas]

I love the idea but fear the coding effort.

Programming isn't using anything new. Biggest obstacle would be in all the data required to generate such a map. Gathering every faction state in every system and then sorting through that to match the filters may put too much load on the servers.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

Programming isn't using anything new. Biggest obstacle would be in all the data required to generate such a map. Gathering every faction state in every system and then sorting through that to match the filters may put too much load on the servers.

For PC could easily be done on client side tool like ED pathfinder, which DLs the data and then simple brute force loop through all inhabited systems is fine, only takes moments.

Serverside, agree, possibly too much load if many people are hitting the server, and the query uses O(LogN) type joins.

I can't off the top of my head think of a way to do it with O(1) hash tables but if it can, then it's server side possible too.

Maybe another coffee and I can figure out the constant time lookup version.

Of course, all this depends on enough CMDRs reporting back accurate info to server, but that's already the case.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

I love the idea but fear the coding effort.

Why would I code when I can debate with strangers on the internet about whether or not I should be allowed to interdict them, and whether that constitutes a breach of the "rules of engagement" in open?

Priorities, man.