Should void opal and LTD mining be more dangerous?

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

I'd prefer it if the random "NPC's show up only when you drop in/log in" was replaced with NPC's finding you while you're mining.
You'd get warning in the form of unresolved contacts, followed by a new contact, then a scan detected, then a warning, then being shot at.
If you miss all those, well you deserved to die. Lol

Theoretically, it could explained that the "sensor disruption" from a blast could be picked up by NPC's on long range sensors, or by repeatedly probing rings for recent detonations, then swoop in.

Much more believable than "I'm here because you are" spawning mechanic.

 

[NeilF]

erm, first, you are thinking too complicated.
limpets already have different modes that just depend on what you have targeted (or nothing locked at all).
the Sub-Surface missile and Seismic charge can be combined and just deploy depending on what you have selected:
1. sub surface deposit = drill mode
2. fraction = seismic charge mode
3. nothing or other ship = flak mode

and the mining laser - as in the 3 other topics, no i dont mean to have two modes on one hardpoint, but
both blaster and laser comming in sizes from C1 to C4,
both beeing able to chip off regular mining fragments (and materials),
and both are able to dislocate surface deposits. (with the difference that the blaster breaks them off as one chunk, and laser in multiple smaller)
the blaster comes just with the advantage of doing combat damage

if i have spare large slot, i should be able to fit a large mining laser / Blaster, and not having to rely on mounting that tiny c1 module.

If we consider just combining the sub-surface missiles and seismic charge launcher as a single module, and then as much as possible all else working the same (ie: the sub-surface and seismic charge launchers still both appear as the existing two devices do in fire groups), how is your proposed "new modes" for the module less complicated? Sounds like completely new mechanics/behaviour to select which "mode"/device to deploy?

With my solution very little new mechanics are required, and no swapping/selecting of devices are required. For aall intents and purposes it's just the two devices combined in one module/slot. Done...

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

I'd prefer it if the random "NPC's show up only when you drop in/log in" was replaced with NPC's finding you while you're mining.
You'd get warning in the form of unresolved contacts, followed by a new contact, then a scan detected, then a warning, then being shot at.
If you miss all those, well you deserved to die. Lol

Theoretically, it could explained that the "sensor disruption" from a blast could be picked up by NPC's on long range sensors, or by repeatedly probing rings for recent detonations, then swoop in.

Much more believable than "I'm here because you are" spawning mechanic.

I think it would be great if I could hide between the asteroids and be barely visible making it hard for NPCs to detect you. Hiding in the cloud after blowing up the icy asteroids brings my ship's heat to 1%, I should then be nearly invisible and could wait until the NPCs left. Not that I've had a problem with NPCs, they scan me and complain when I drop in, then I move off and they don't follow me.

 

[Kenneth McGrew]

I've been brought down to 25-30% hull twice in a Python, and I've been blown up once in an Asp Explorer while deep core mining. It is a very dangerous endeavor when your limpets have gone rogue.

limpets are pretty dangerous in 3.3

 

[Bill Clement]

It doesn't have to be pew pew. It can involve hiding from pirates you detect. It can involve fleeing when needed.

And you can still have peaceful meditation mining just not in void opal or LTD hotspots.

People complain about balance and the problem is that there is no risk vs reward balance. You can make millions on passenger missions and mining without taking any risk.

See CS below for the first part of what you posted. That I wouldn't object to, I'm more against the incessant whining from the pew pew crowd about how profitable activities are profitable, so either nerf all the things or add murdervettes in wings anywhere people are enjoying making credits in non combat roles. [sour]

I often complain about balance and risk vs reward. The game's balance was skewed against non combat builds from Day 1 and there's naff all risk for the guys (now wings) rocking up in warship builds to seal club anyone not winged up in warships of their own. That's been further skewed by crazy engineer boosts that the NPCs are balanced against. The sad fact is, BSC, a vanilla miner is already running huge risks, even in solo, thanks to power creep brought on by pew pew crybullies constantly draining down on the devs about combat related shenanigans.

Miners and explorers finally got some cool new game features to play with, one of them happens to be very profitable. I'm fine with that. If players, new or old, fancy earning billions? Good on 'em, I say. The people complaining loudest about high profits or too much credit are usually billionaires already!

I'd prefer it if the random "NPC's show up only when you drop in/log in" was replaced with NPC's finding you while you're mining.
You'd get warning in the form of unresolved contacts, followed by a new contact, then a scan detected, then a warning, then being shot at.
If you miss all those, well you deserved to die. Lol

Theoretically, it could explained that the "sensor disruption" from a blast could be picked up by NPC's on long range sensors, or by repeatedly probing rings for recent detonations, then swoop in.

Much more believable than "I'm here because you are" spawning mechanic.

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

well, combat payouts got nerfed with every patch

you go void opal mining - get 1.6million almost risk free for ever shot with an unlimited ammo blaster,

try to find a combat target these days that is worth a million credits for shooting down.
the last elite assassination mission i got was 2M for bringing down a pirate corvette - that i had to search for an hour.

and that mission had some risk involved... especially for my keyboard to be smashed in rage about that stupid mission script

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

pew pew crybullies constantly draining down on the devs about combat related shenanigans. [...] The people complaining loudest

I agree with most of your balance points, in particular the engineering vs. vanilla skew, and I am possibly the most vocal defender of mining's profit on various elite related subreddits. I have also posted there a lot research on the new mechanic that was very popular (will provide links if requested if you won't take at face value).

But I also enjoy pew pew pew and your painting that whole aspect of the game with one big brush is very inaccurate to many of us who have no interest in seal clubbing. I hate the engineering requirements myself. I think blaming some truly poor design decisions on FDev's part on us "pew pew crybullies" is inaccurate.

Also, at least on PS4, it's virtually impossible to find miners to gank. I know, not because I gank them, but actually try to find them to pirate "by the rules" (e.g. use comms, not a murder build, don't open fire until reason to, etc). It's way way way way harder than mining which I've also done a lot of, possibly more of. When I've interdicted at CGs or eravate, usually these result in friend requests.

I've found a few miners, but always only with limpets. And now that there are 39 stations to sell at, I can no longer find any at all. I know PC is different, but are there really that many gankers 180 ly out from Shinrarta where some of the sell stations are, even on PC? (I realize I could be wrong here, having not played on PC)

For the record it's completely viable to mine in open with engineering. I can provide combat capable builds on request that I have actually used to make hundreds of millions. By combat capable I mean, can kill a poor to medium skilled gank, have a decent row with a decent ganker, and flee from any except for a *very* good wing. Obviously for the non flee options, there's a big time investment. Learning to flee takes a few hours max to someone already well versed in other aspects of the game (enough to mine successfully).

 

[Bill Clement]

I agree with most of your balance points, in particular the engineering vs. vanilla skew, and I am possibly the most vocal defender of mining's profit on various elite related subreddits. I have also posted there a lot research on the new mechanic that was very popular (will provide links if requested if you won't take at face value).

But I also enjoy pew pew pew and your painting the whole aspect of the game with one big brush is very inaccurate to many of us who have no interest in seal clubbing. I hate the engineering requirements myself. I think blaming some truly poor design decisions on FDev's part on us "pew pew crybullies" is inaccurate.

Also, at least on PS4, it's virtually impossible to find miners to gank. I know, not because I gank them, but actually try to find them to pirate "by the rules" (e.g. use comms, not a murder build, don't open fire until reason to, etc). It's way way way way harder than mining which I've also done a lot of, possibly more of. When I've interdicted at CGs or eravate, usually these result in friend requests.

I've found a few miners, but always only with limpets. And now that there are 39 stations to sell at, I can no longer find any at all. I know PC is different, but are there really that many gankers 180 ly out from Shinrarta where some of the sell stations are, even on PC? (I realize I could be wrong here, having not played on PC)

For the record it's completely viable to mine in open with engineering. I can provide combat capable builds on request that I have actually used to make hundreds of millions. By combat capable I mean, can kill a poor to medium skilled gank, have a decent row with a decent ganker, and flee from any except for a *very* good wing. Obviously for the non flee options, there's a big time investment. Learning to flee takes a few hours max to someone already well versed in other aspects of the game (enough to mine successfully).

Sorry mate, I didn't mean to strike a nerve!

I'm not claiming 'pirates' or guys interested in PvP are all seal clubbers. What I am saying is that for three years the overwhelming majority of the development effort in Elite seemed to be directed towards aspects of the game based around combat. Funnily enough, most of the 'improvements' seemed to mirror lobbying on the boards and forums about what combat players seemed most interested in. Crafting and then engineers seemed to be skewed towards combat applications, nerfs and buffs to ships were in areas that directly affected combat performance, new content like surface installations came with armed targets to shoot at... there's a whole lot more but I don't want to re-open old wounds. Just go back a few dozen pages on the main board, you'll soon see what I'm talking about.
From time to time profitable opportunities came up. Things like smuggling and passenger missions got nerfed into oblivion after months of loud complaints from people crying about not being paid to use all the new upgrades to their kit. They got the lion's share of development effort, they wanted 'gold rushes' to go along with them and mounted weeks long temper tantrums when other (lesser?) styles of play got rewarded. Ironic, really, as the goldrushes were usually a pretty transparent attempt to hide the complete lack of content in those 'lesser' modes.

Looked at another way- the gap between non combat builds and min/max warships has been getting larger with every patch. The guys flying ships that are useless at everything bar destroying other ships are extremely vocal- check out who's starting all the 'miles wide, inch deep' threads. Mostly they were the same guys throwing teddy out of their pram because newbs were (allegedly) coming by credits way too easily, or people were 'getting away' with using what they considered unsuitable builds in player groups or solo. Vitriol directed at the mythical 'unshielded trader' apparently undermining unspecified factions was liberally splashed around this forum and others.
Again, I'm not going to go too far down that road, there was a lot of bad feeling on both sides. But Frontier have spent three years increasing the options and amplifying the differences between non-combat and combat orientated ships. It's very hard (for me) not to feel that 'pew pew' has gotten far too much attention from the company and I can't help but notice that many of the new ideas seem to have been mooted on here a few months before they appeared in game.

Personally, I got really bored of calls to nerf everything a long way back. I'm pretty sure the next patch will kill the void opal goldrush, but even if it doesn't, miners making fortunes doesn't bother me in the slightest. I'm very suspicious of those who do complain, though. What's their objection? If it's jealousy, an irrational anger at someone being rewarded for doing something that doesn't involve blowing up kiddie on spaceships, then I'm calling them out for what they are! Meanwhile, I'm really happy with the latest season, or whatever it is we're calling this year just gone. It's had a ton of really cool stuff and miners have finally gotten a wee bit of love. I'm all for that, even if it has taken four years to land. Better late than never...

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

Sorry mate, I didn't mean to strike a nerve!

NP it's no big deal, just not healthy when different segments of the community can't even converse without name calling(one thing I firmly believe is a strength of ED is so many different ways to enjoy).

As someone with feet in multiple pools I like to to point out these things and stand my ground. But I didn't think you were going all super ragey or anything

Anyway to address a few points - I will defer on the historical stuff simply wasn't here and lack the knowledge or will to look it up. Yes Engr is combat slanted, but not quite as extreme as you say, look at G5 FSD with mass manager and the guardian boost. Plus racing and a few other niche. But yes fully engineered murder machines are overpowered, nothing can fight back - but many things can flee quite successfully. It would be nice if that wasn't the only option but at least it's there, and why I refuse to budge when convos start by implying ganking is unavoidable. I will agree it must be annoying. I will also point out, fighting back would require much more than build for 9/10 complainers. Even "casual" PvP'ers like myself have hundreds of hours of focused practice and research on it and will beat anyone who hasn't done that, even if that other person has an equal (or even greater) combat build. There are PvP pilots with thousands of hours invested who are an order of magnitude better than I am, and they can beat unbelievable odds. It's unpleasant to have someone hand wave away your hundreds of hours of (fun) practice as merely the product of an OP build.

There's vitriol coming our way too. In a recent thread, someone accused me of being a griefer over an incident I described. He had no idea what he was talking about, at *best* the incident was a combat pilot in over his/her head with me - but most likely I was actually interdicting a griefer who was using a 2nd ghost account to get an extra pip via multicrew (ship was mamba, which has no legitimate reason for multicrew aside from extra pip).

As someone who puts actual effort into open mode roleplay, it really was annoying to be called a griefer by someone who probably never flies in open - especially when I have a video of the whole thing posted.

So just try to have a wider perspective on the vitriol.

Otherwise I pretty much agree with all your points, except a few. PvP'ers don't care about gold rushes, we're all already rich and materials are far far far more valuable than credits to us. Also passenger isn't really nerfed (although the crappy unified mission board has hit this hard, along with any BGS play). in 3.2 I was still making 100 mil / hour or more plus a lot of g5 mats with it (super boring though). Now it's down to ~25 million, so I do void opals (more fun, more money, although I miss the exquisite focus crystal and biotech conductor rewards).

o7

 

[BlackSpaceCowboy]

But I also enjoy pew pew pew and your painting that whole aspect of the game with one big brush is very inaccurate to many of us who have no interest in seal clubbing.

I'll take it further. It's not the pew pew crowd that are crybabies. Remember what happened when the NPC actually became dangerous. People were up in arms. Especially the space truckers.

All danger has been removed from this game. That's why I kind of smiled when I got destroyed by the pirate. It was all very exciting. I just needed one more second for my FSD to kick in. My heart was pounding. It was great.

And you don't have to pew pew to defend yourself. You can focus on escaping. And thinking about how you'll escape a potential pirate adds to the immersion.

 

[Iron Golem]

It's easy to lose your opals.
Crashing into an asteroid while perma boosting searching for those bright yellow ones.
Pirates find you with opals in your cargo bay while mining.
Getting interdicted while flying to a station to sell them.
Getting blown up along with asteroid.

I use a Python with 500m/s perma boost, no weapons and class 3 shields. I've not died or lost any hull yet.

I'm in the Python with the same shields and I fly right in there and get down with those big tumbling chunks. I am a big fan of the ram stop. I couldn't imagine doing any of it without shields.

The only time I lose hull is the sc drop where I hurtle into the ring at impossible speeds =D

 

[Havvk]

Yes. I want my shields stripped and even my hull caved in if I'm less than 500 meters from the roid. 500-1km is shield damage and anything past 1km to about 1.3km is just the static interference effect before it becomes just plain harmless after that distance


(Bonus points if my canopy is high risk of being popped within close proximity upon detonation too!)

 

[Iron Golem]

Yes. I want my shields stripped and even my hull caved in if I'm less than 500 meters from the roid. 500-1km is shield damage and anything past 1km to about 1.3km is just the static interference effect before it becomes just plain harmless after that distance


(Bonus points if my canopy is high risk of being popped within close proximity upon detonation too!)

Agreed, mini nukes should be deadly. Would be sweet to cover the capital ships in all those seismic charges for a simultaneously detonation of like 40 of em lol.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

I'm in the Python with the same shields and I fly right in there and get down with those big tumbling chunks. I am a big fan of the ram stop. I couldn't imagine doing any of it without shields.

The only time I lose hull is the sc drop where I hurtle into the ring at impossible speeds =D

I had one opal that was so close to the asteroid that it kept clipping into it; I had a collector try to grab it but destroyed itself in the process. I then scraped my Cobra against the asteroid and pushed the fragment away a bit when it "emerged", I still couldn't pick it up with my scoop so I launched another collector and retrieved the fragment. The noise of scraping my hull against the asteroid was horrendous.

I'm so nervous about damaging my hull I take my time dropping in to a ring, slowing to 30 km/s.

 

[Daynen]

The only thing really dangerous about new mining is your limpets if you don't bring a shield. It's kind of insulting actually.

 

[Brrokk]

I have doubts about the motivation in this thread. Is it people who like mining thinking it would be a bit more exciting with more pirate danger, or are people who don't like mining put out about others making profits in a non-combat activity? I would respect the first possibility, but not the second.

Personally, I think the new mining is about right. Void Opals are indeed very profitable, but they take skill and time to find. To be fully outfitted for mining you have to give up on carrying defensive weaponry, so even "That's the ship I'm looking for" pirates are a threat on the way to sell. The biggest profits are in low-security piratical systems by design.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

are people who don't like mining put out about others making profits in a non-combat activity?

[...]To be fully outfitted for mining you have to give up on carrying defensive weaponry

Combat activities are among the worst paying in the game. Mining, road to riches, passenger and wing delivery all pay much more, so I don't understand the first line.

Re the second, you are completely incorrect. This medium ship build is capable of mining hundreds of millions worth of credits (and has done so for me in practice) while also being able to easily kill any NPC pirates, many solo CMDR pirates, and escaping the better CMDR pirates. It can also run 3x or 4X Abrasion nearly as well as the asp can run 5x for those who use that behavior until it's fixed (of course at the expense of combat/defense). It also has better handling than the asp with 2 or fewer pips to eng, and always has better laterals/verticals. This makes hitting surface deposits quicker/easier. Rebuy under 6mil.

https://s.orbis.zone/1uar

The same can be done with medium pythons and kraits (probably clippers too). With the big 3 it's almost trivial to load a defense capable build.

How do I know? In addition to a miner, I am a CMDR pirate. Pirating is way harder (please do note I enjoy mining as well, it's by far the best income activity in the game by virtue of both paying well and actually being reasonably fun).

[For anyone sharp eyed enough to notice the power overrun, one must simply cut power to the pulse analyzer if combat arises]

 

[NeilF]

Personally, I think the new mining is about right. Void Opals are indeed very profitable, but they take skill and time to find.

I'd raise a few comments on this...

"takes time" - It takes time because there is no alternative to the one mechanic we currently have as our go-to-CR-mining-mechanic. At the moment (CR mining) consists of nothing more than motherlode->motherlode->motherlode. So you invariably fly along, finger on a button for minutes, looking for the same PWA signature, and same looking asteroid, over and over. ie: Where is any other mining mechanics in CR mining at the moment? Indeed why is many miners don't even bother with a sub-surface missile launcher?

"takes skill" - It does indeed involves more than it used to. But I'd suggest it would be a better (& more skilful) experience, if more mechanics were involved. We're back again at the entire lower teir of mining mechanics not even existing (ie: standard surface deposits and sub-surface deposits being balanced into the mechanics).

And my comments about pirates at hotspots? FD need to decide one way or the other. At the moment with the rediculous amount of hardware required, a small/mid ship is hard pushed to defend itself. So FD need to decide to either basically do away with the magical we know where you're going pirates, or merge the hardware into sensible consolidations to free up points:-

1. Combine the Sub-surface missile launcher and seismic charge launcher into a single module, which then works exactly as know, appearing as the two individual devices everywhere else (eg: in firegroups).
2. Combine the abrasion blaster and mining laser into a single module, which then works exactly as know, appearing as the two individual devices everywhere else (eg: in firegroups).

Combat activities are among the worst paying in the game. Mining, road to riches, passenger and wing delivery all pay much more, so I don't understand the first line.

Oooh! Oooh! Oooh! I know this! The worst paying is PvP Piracy?

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

Oooh! Oooh! Oooh! I know this! The worst paying is PvP Piracy?

Lol it's as if we've had this conversation before ;-)

Re takes skill, well it takes skill if you make it take skill. Like pretty much every other thing in the game it can be as hard or easy as you want it to be (except for the impossible broken things).

the abrasion blaster is actually a difficult to use "weapon" having the projectile lead requirement of a Plasma accelerator but delayed firing time of a railgun. Sure if you just park, point, press it's trivially easy.

Try hitting the surface deposits while circle strafing the roids at 25-50% speed using mostly laterals/verticals. add fa-off for more skill. remove shields for more more skill. etc.

i agree, subsurface is useless in current state, and the part of mining that is boost-pulse-boost-pulse-boost-pulse is pretty boring, although can have minor fun with fa-off

regarding medium ships and defense, click the build link. that thing is extremely murder-y

 

[NeilF]

the abrasion blaster is actually a difficult to use "weapon" having the projectile lead requirement of a Plasma accelerator but delayed firing time of a railgun. Sure if you just park, point, press it's trivially easy.

I actually find aiming/using the abrasion blaster easy to the point of tedious, and that's even in a low grade snail on sand paper Cutter.

As I've said elsewhere, IMHO surface deposits should be the polar opposite of the rest of the mining mechanics, and be fast and furious (instead of aiming/timing based). There should be lots and lots more surface deposits on asteroids, and we should instead fit utility mount abrasion blaster (type) units which simply like counter measures fire upon any surface deposit in their line of sight automatically. So mining surface deposits should be about quickly and efficiently presenting your utility mining points to bear on the sides of asteroids and quickly and efficiently collecting the fragments. Almost akin to strip mining!

Leave aiming and timing and such mining gameplay to sub-surface and seismic charges. Making them all slow and considered is a poor choice IMHO.