Station construction in game

[Ian Doncaster]

True, but bearing in mind there are 400 billion star systems out there (or whatever, I haven’t had time to count every one), isn’t it likely to take some time for the universe to lose its sense of scale? Even if 1000 new stations were brought online every week, it would take nearly 2000 years to colonise another 1% of the Elite galaxy, so I reckon you can relax on that score.

It depends very strongly on how and where they're placed.

If they're placed as close to Sol as possible in uninhabited systems, then yes, the rate of expansion will be pretty slow on a galactic scale and no-one will really notice from an exploration perspective. It would take decades just to fill up Wregoe with stations, and most of them would be pretty pointless.

If they're placed in an "octree" model (which is not the most efficient, since the galactic disk is very flat, but it's good enough)
- DWE's station at Sag A* means you can never be more than ~40,000 LY from a station
- 8 more means you can never be more than ~20,000 LY from a station
- 64 more means you can never be more than ~6,000 LY from a station
- 256 more means you can never be more than ~2,000 LY from a station
... that's less than your single week and the galaxy is already covered in a substantial grid of stations slightly denser than the Colonia-Sol highway. A fast ship can reach safety in under an hour without even needing to neutron-boost. The concept of "deep space" exploration is now very definitely dead.

- 2,048 more means you can never be more than ~600 LY from a station
... two more weeks, and the entire galaxy is as dense as the halo of deep-space stations surrounding the bubble

- 16,384 more, and you can never be more than ~200 LY from a station.
... four more months, and a fast ship can neutron-boost to the nearest station in a single hop

- 131,072 more, and you can never be more than ~60 LY from a station
... three more years, and you don't even need to neutron boost. A fast ship can never be more than a single jump from a station.

 

[ADAMtheWELSHMANz]

Thanks Ian, pretty much the point I was trying to make. More stations is fine, placing them wherever you want is the issue regardless of requirements

Whilst I do agree some form of credit sink would be a nice addition to Elite at some point it needs to make sense to the game as a whole

In the 4 years since launch we've had a secondary bubble in Colonia, a few (mostly research) stations ~5000ly from the bubble, 3 CG starions en route to Colonia and 1 new station coming soon near the Galactic Core

I'm sure one day we may even get something towards BP and more research stations in other far flung Sectors, but given the growth we've seen so far it just wouldn't make sense to have multiple "bubbles' popping up everywhere

 

[Cosmo]

In the 4 years since launch we've had a secondary bubble in Colonia, a few (mostly research) stations ~5000ly from the bubble, 3 CG starions en route to Colonia and 1 new station coming soon near the Galactic Core

I'm sure one day we may even get something towards BP and more research stations in other far flung Sectors, but given the growth we've seen so far it just wouldn't make sense to have multiple "bubbles' popping up everywhere

They could designate certain regions for squadrons to construct their own stations.

A lot of players yearn to do more than own a bunch of ships.

 

[M00ka]

They could designate certain regions for squadrons to construct their own stations.

A lot of players yearn to do more than own a bunch of ships.

So who would pay for these stations?

How would the squadrons get the commodities to sell in these stations?

How would the squadrons get the ammo to sell in these stations?

How would the squadrons get the modules to sell in these stations?

How would the squadrons get the ships to sell in these stations?

 

[BinakAlgo]

Thanks Ian, pretty much the point I was trying to make. More stations is fine, placing them wherever you want is the issue regardless of requirements

Whilst I do agree some form of credit sink would be a nice addition to Elite at some point it needs to make sense to the game as a whole

In the 4 years since launch we've had a secondary bubble in Colonia, a few (mostly research) stations ~5000ly from the bubble, 3 CG starions en route to Colonia and 1 new station coming soon near the Galactic Core

I'm sure one day we may even get something towards BP and more research stations in other far flung Sectors, but given the growth we've seen so far it just wouldn't make sense to have multiple "bubbles' popping up everywhere

I guess that's the problem of the whole discussion. I'm not really interested in the whole deep exploration, so I would actually like to see more Bubbles and everything between them being wild badlands. But as M00ka points out below that should take a lot of player's work, I want to be one of those hauling all that cargo, looking for safe heavens among the 30,000 ly to reach whatever to deliver the precious cargo of food and water that they need to save them from a famine or the advanced medicnes to stop an outbrake. So I guess we have completely different point of views and only devs can decide which path to take, or if it possible to take both.

So who would pay for these stations?

How would the squadrons get the commodities to sell in these stations?

How would the squadrons get the ammo to sell in these stations?

How would the squadrons get the modules to sell in these stations?

How would the squadrons get the ships to sell in these stations?

WE WILL MOVE IT! THE SPACE TRUCK SIMULATOR HAULERS!!!

 

[Vasious]

Well yes, it wouldn't make sense if a single cmdr could start a station build with just credits, the same way they can create a squadron.
Building a station would have to be a huge team effort. In addition to a huge sum of credits, it would also require tens of thousands of multiple commodities delivered to a location to even start the build. (just like how these CG's work) Something that would be next to impossible for a single cmdr to do.

​

Hence my concern they start and be abandoned as too large a task for a single Cmdr, if they were tied to a squadron but also tied to the BGS

​

Anyway, to be honest, I'd much rather see them add small, player-owned 'outposts' to the game. No large stations or bases, just a small planetary settlement (or maybe asteroid base) that a player could customize somewhat and call home. No faction allegiance, no commodities market, basically nothing that could impact the BGS. Just a small home base for the player.

Yeah there was robust discussion as an alternative to Megaships for Single Sqn Cmdrs having such which had many good ideas for non BGS connected homes

 

[IndigoWyrd]

But then we have a system called Kuk... (all Swedish speaking knows)

We also have people who refer to their significant others as "bae", which makes the Danish people cringe.

So you're going to have things like that from time to time, but you can bet your last paczki it's not intentional.

 

[Saxon Kili]

Because they don't "Barry McCoquinner Station" or "Bawls Orbital", or "Lotta ina Platform" floating around out there for one thing. It's bad enough to see a Dolphin named "Dee Snutz" pull up in your face.

Thank goodness I'm a badarse pilot in in a cutthroat galaxy and can handle a game where people buy and sell slaves, smuggle drugs, and kill other commanders. It kind of makes me immune to funny names like that.

 

[Tarman]

Thank goodness I'm a badarse pilot in in a cutthroat galaxy and can handle a game where people buy and sell slaves, smuggle drugs, and kill other commanders. It kind of makes me immune to funny names like that.

Also, you can walk down any given dockside IRL and see some of the most stupid names created in all the history of named items. I consider that to be a sign of realism.

 

[Vicktore Beskor]

Why I keep bringing up the topic of proper colonization mechanics or PCM is because I feel in my so humble opinion that I would like to see elite dangerous reach it’s full potential. Being able to colonize unpopulated Star systems would be a step in the right direction of development for elite dangerous. I don’t see it as empire building is see it as part of basic human nature to not only go where no one has gone before but to take that new found place and make it a home. We as humans have done that throughout our history. We take pride in making new discoveries and creating new places for humanity to grow and develop.

 

[BinakAlgo]

Why I keep bringing up the topic of proper colonization mechanics or PCM is because I feel in my so humble opinion that I would like to see elite dangerous reach it’s full potential. Being able to colonize unpopulated Star systems would be a step in the right direction of development for elite dangerous. I don’t see it as empire building is see it as part of basic human nature to not only go where no one has gone before but to take that new found place and make it a home. We as humans have done that throughout our history. We take pride in making new discoveries and creating new places for humanity to grow and develop.

Completely agree, it should be just a matter of good thinking and balancing to keep most players happy. Not making it easy but a far milestone for veteran players but not so hard that new players will look at it as a pipedream impossible to achieve. Put a max limit of player's stations in a system or a planet, do not give rewards in credits but in recognition or other kind of "prizes", make it possible to do it alone but make it more rewarding if working with others, etc.

But well, anyway, probably right now the devs are busy with the atmospheric flight, space legs, slowing the current gold rush, etc.

 

[Vicktore Beskor]

What I would like to see because this is such a big topic is that just for once a developer come on this thread and comment on this topic. I would like to ask a developer if this is something they would like to do with with elite dangerous and in what form would it take.
Even though a lot of commanders would like atmospheric landing and or space legs I feel PCM should come first because that would give us something to do other than take screenshots in the new discovered locations.

 

[BinakAlgo]

What I would like to see because this is such a big topic is that just for once a developer come on this thread and comment on this topic. I would like to ask a developer if this is something they would like to do with with elite dangerous and in what form would it take.
Even though a lot of commanders would like atmospheric landing and or space legs I feel PCM should come first because that would give us something to do other than take screenshots in the new discovered locations.

A quick check of the Suggestion forums makes me think that they have never replied to any suggestion ever. But I did not check it all out so mabye there are some.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Thank goodness I'm a badarse pilot in in a cutthroat galaxy and can handle a game where people buy and sell slaves, smuggle drugs, and kill other commanders. It kind of makes me immune to funny names like that.

Most of us are, but it only takes one weeping snowflake to ruin it for everyone.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Also, you can walk down any given dockside IRL and see some of the most stupid names created in all the history of named items. I consider that to be a sign of realism.

Like...

Or my favorite:

 

[V'larr]

It depends very strongly on how and where they're placed.

If they're placed as close to Sol as possible in uninhabited systems, then yes, the rate of expansion will be pretty slow on a galactic scale and no-one will really notice from an exploration perspective. It would take decades just to fill up Wregoe with stations, and most of them would be pretty pointless.

If they're placed in an "octree" model (which is not the most efficient, since the galactic disk is very flat, but it's good enough)
- DWE's station at Sag A* means you can never be more than ~40,000 LY from a station
- 8 more means you can never be more than ~20,000 LY from a station
- 64 more means you can never be more than ~6,000 LY from a station
- 256 more means you can never be more than ~2,000 LY from a station
... that's less than your single week and the galaxy is already covered in a substantial grid of stations slightly denser than the Colonia-Sol highway. A fast ship can reach safety in under an hour without even needing to neutron-boost. The concept of "deep space" exploration is now very definitely dead.

- 2,048 more means you can never be more than ~600 LY from a station
... two more weeks, and the entire galaxy is as dense as the halo of deep-space stations surrounding the bubble

- 16,384 more, and you can never be more than ~200 LY from a station.
... four more months, and a fast ship can neutron-boost to the nearest station in a single hop

- 131,072 more, and you can never be more than ~60 LY from a station
... three more years, and you don't even need to neutron boost. A fast ship can never be more than a single jump from a station.

For the record, I'm 100% okay with the galaxy becoming so 'populated'. Still plenty uninhabited places to haunt and explore, but also with the excitement of colonizing the Milky Way. I want that.

 

[CMDR_Coenen]

So I ask when is FDev going to take the dog leash off the players and allow us to make decisions for ourselves.

So you compare a community driven and developer-supported aim to create a space station far away with "single player build stations in the bubble"? There is a big difference here.

It seems to me that FDev only want players to construct structures where they deemed fit.

And they should. If every player is going to build a station, we get loads of stations everywhere. Stations are spaced well enough as it is, except in far away places where DW2 is currently building.

Just my 2Cr...

 

[Jimmox72]

The simple solution to the zits effect is to make the process be difficult, expensive, squadron-based, and time-consuming. The expense should include not just credits and a large variety of obvious commodities, but also materials of both a raw and manufactured type. Especially G5. Lllllllots of G5. And if the base is to be abandoned and decays over time, scavengers should be getting half of that back, tops, and that is if they get it all before it decays.

As to mechanics, players building surface ports themselves sounds like a good scenario for use of a new SRV type: a forklift, with 4 tons cargo capacity and a hinged-overhead loading mechanism to put chosen cannisters into the tines from the cargo rack at the rear. The hardpoint controls are used to manipulate the tines as required.

Here's a quick outline of the construction mechanism:

Spoiler

In a well-stocked station:

• Put a forklift in PV Hangar
• Buy four or more appropriate building-marker canisters (could be specific or generic, each option has its own issues)
• Buy starter commodities for the construction site

At the chosen construction site, say just to build a stand-alone building with a four-cornered rectilinear floor-plan:

• Deploy forklift from ship
• Transfer the four building canisters from the ship to the forklift's cargo bay, just as is done now with SRVs
• Load first canister onto tines
• Pick your desired location for one corner of the building and put the first canister where desired
• Use datalink to trigger the canister into activity. The canister will then put hologrammatic rings around itself to mark viable potential positions for the next canister.
• Load second canister onto tines
• Pick your desired alignment for the building, and put the second canister on the desired spot that is within the hologram-ring from the first canister
• Datalink the canister to activate this one too. The holograms switch from the set of circles to four potential spots for the third canister
• Load third canister onto tines
• Place canister on one of the four marked spots, datalink activate it, and the hologram now becomes the one remaining viable corner spot for the fourth canister.
• Load and place the fourth canister in the one spot hologrammatically indicated
• Datalink-activate the fourth canister
• The four canisters whir into action in a visually impressive manner, starting with say arms growing out of the canisters to physically mark out the rectangle, starting to kick up dust, etc

For other structures, say a gigantic flat concourse, perhaps a complex set of canisters can be used, up to some limit (which could be as many as a hundred or more if a full-on star-port all on one big paved surface is the plan?), to mark out a more complex floor-plan.

From this point on, people need to keep feeding the construction site with more canisters, according to a schedule appropriate for each structure type. The need to feed the construction should not be a one-off thing, but that the work needs fresh supplies at regular intervals. A datalink-scan of the construction site will inform a scanner of what the status is and what needs the site has, and so on. On a lack of one or more needed supplies the construction will halt. Non-supply of hydrogen fuel and critical commodities such as Building Fabricators will lead to decay rapidly, and non-supply of other needed things will still lead to decay but at a slower pace.

Just a thought: perhaps senior personnel in the Squadron can have 'keys to the place' so to be able to dock their SRVs there and "board" the construction site, which takes them to a separate "Site Manager" screen entirely in a similar fashion as going to an outfitting screen. From there, these players can direct construction type. This would obviate a need for having different canisters for different buildings, and instead make construction an issue of player choice at this Site Manager screen. The Site Manager screen would also inform the player being the Site Manager of what supplies are needed, who would then communicate that to the rest of the squadron in whatever way suits their fancy (eg Discord etc).

The visual appearance of the construction site is to be updated as appropriate every Thursday as part of server maintenance.

A whole site will not become a functional port until a suitable variety of buildings are in place, and that the first arrivals must be one or more passenger missions to bring in hired staff. This will require a new type of mission available. The building requirements must also include something that provides exportable goods, and that the players actively support the production of these exports (eg bring in minerals to refine into metals, etc). The marketplace will not sell any commodities but those produced as a result of players selling in the required precursors.

Construction should take quite some time to lead to a functioning star port, say (arbitrarily) 12 weeks for a simple building, and longer for more complex ones (note: more than one building at a time can be under construction)? Supplies and cash will continue needing to be delivered to the site to keep it going until the site is viable, as I've mentioned before.

I think that is enough to get the idea, so I wont develop it further.

 

[ChrisF0001]

Even with the size of the unexplored galaxy, I still think that letting even a tiny fraction of the playerbase build whatever they want whenever they want, even if, say, only >1000 ly from the bubble, would generate an implausible amount of 'urban blight' just outside that radius. I'm not convinced that such a cheapening of the idea of colonisation is worth mildly stroking the ego of a few super-rich players.

So personally I fully support new stations / colonies only being built by FD under exceptional circumstances. If you really think you have enough resources and / or support to make such a thing even remotely plausible, go ahead and make your case. That's the 'gameplay'.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

The simple solution to the zits effect is to make the process be difficult, expensive, squadron-based, and time-consuming.

That's certainly a given, but how do you define "expensive".

If you want a squadron of 50 people - which is going to be one of the larger ones - to be able to succeed at all, then a commodity requirement [1] of five million tonnes would mean it probably took them three to six months to do that bit.

But that would allow a typical maximum-sized squadron (500 people) to complete it in a week or two.

And if you look at the performance of a really dedicated squadron of maximum size - DWE is mining ten times faster than the typical mining CG pace right now, and has doubled the previous record with fewer people and still three days to go - they could probably set up a station in a couple of days.

On the other hand, if Frontier set the commodity requirement at 500 million tonnes so that even if a community leader managed to catch the imagination and get multiple full squadrons working on their project (on a separate station for each squadron, of course), it would still take them a few months per station ... no-one else would stand a chance at all.

Balancing "expensive" when Frontier have no way to predict in advance whether 10 people or 10,000 people will try it is really tricky ... worse, the levels interact badly with the participant numbers:
- if they set it so low that 10 people can eventually build themselves a station, then 10,000 people can build a *lot* of stations and the chance of people getting mass station projects together is really high.
- if they set it so high that 10,000 people can eventually build themselves a station, the chances are that everyone gives up when they realise how high the target is, and you never get that group together in the first place (and they might as well just stick to the current approach where you get the thousands of people together first, and then ask for the station, because that's easier to implement)

I don't think there's a good answer to that.

[1] I'm using the commodity part of the cost for discussion because that's where the best data exists on how fast people collectively haul stuff, and the scaling issues don't change with the other types of cost.