[Appeal to FDev] Let's talk about combat

[Avetorian]

Didn't kill either (though I did take down both their hulls a bit). That said, I did convince the commander to leave the system; which to me, is a success. And no, I didn't have to run away (though I ended things with only 3% hull left).

How many engagements would you be willing to lose in your Krait? I could take my Viper in thousands and lose every time and still not care because the rebuy is so low (not that I typically need to rebuy). That same Viper, has no problems in a Conflict Zone (so it can be used for ranking up, Conflict CG's, etc.)

I'd say that if I can achieve my goals of protecting other commanders in some system, while within a small ship, then it is much more efficient than in a medium or large. Also, because the costs are so extremely low, the barrier to entry is also so extremely low and zoomies are so extremely high, it far surpasses medium and large ship combat, for me.

I could lose my krait plenty of times, it is just as much of a throw away ship to me as a viper. You can protect others in a small ship, but a large or medium ship can do it better. Cost should not be the primary factor in a ship's performance.

Another user stated this above:

Medium and large ships are better at a lot of things - they should be better at something, with that price tag - but small ships have their uses where neither cargo capacity nor raw firepower is required

I'm not sure why you wouldn't want a more specialized viper. The reason combat is talked about so many times on this forum, is because combat is a primary factor in the game, EVERY ship comes with weapons mounted on it. More specialized strike craft would be an amazing thing, why wouldn't you want that? I don't even understand it.

 

[EternalSorrow]

completely disagree... only after getting over 1000 hours in the game have I gone to the Small Ships for the challenge, the low rebuy and the fun they present. I use the following ship to chase down Large and Medium ship Commanders and distract them from killing other Commanders in systems like Deciat and Shinrarta Dehzra

https://s.orbis.zone/1P9m

and I've several other builds of Vipers (Mk IV and III) that I rather enjoy using

I'm flying my ICourier now. It's fun and challenging, but it doesn't mean anything in relation of a small ships competitiveness. I've flown all ship classes in different situations, and I understand, that if my enemy on medium/large ship is not a complete idiot - I will lose, and anything I can do is to deal as much damage as I can before I will run out of ammo or shield Mj.

In the former times, there was a possibility to destroy a CMDR's Python on a Viper, because of much lower time-to-kill. The larger time-to-kill we have, the more the combat result is defined by the ships's firepower and health points relation. I've spent a bunch of time doing combat in pre SCB's time, and continue to play CQC and usual game now - so, I'm completely confident in what I'm saying.

 

[bicarbon8]

You can protect others in a small ship, but a large or medium ship can do it better.

I personally feel that small ships should be required to group up to take down large ships and should struggle to take down medium ships on their own (as they currently are). I also feel Medium ships should struggle to take down large ships on their own and large ships should struggle to even hit small ships. This, to me, would be good balance.

 

[EternalSorrow]

I personally feel that small ships should be required to group up to take down large ships and should struggle to take down medium ships on their own (as they currently are). I also feel Medium ships should struggle to take down large ships on their own and large ships should struggle to even hit small ships. This, to me, would be good balance.

The better idea is to group a medium ones. If we compare an equal quantity of ships, mediums are better in all ways, excluding speed, sometimes.

Yes, 10 Sideys will be much cheaper than a FAS, and take down an Anaconda in much more efficient way. But it's a game, where everyone has it's own setup, and the only small subset of those setups is viable in combat.

 

[Amargosa]

Combat is good I just wish we had more "group" and "big ship" based stuff to do with friends.

No, there should be far less of that. Not everyone has the luck to have started playing a game with friends. Most signed up for the game on their own and therefore are limited to "experience" Open Mode as solo players.

 

[Avetorian]

No, there should be far less of that. Not everyone has the luck to have started playing a game with friends. Most signed up for the game on their own and therefore are limited to "experience" Open Mode as solo players.

Why? This is the largest game world ever to exist. One large group can't dictate other players actions not even in single solar system. Wait till we can land on planets, There isn't enough players in this game to populate a single continent let alone an entire planet.

Give the bigger groups more big stuff to play with and fight over, You'd have less ganking, as right now that seems to be the primary pvp activity.

 

[sidereal6]

anything you can do in a small ship I can do in a medium or large ship better.

This is most definitely true, but it hints at something the game doesn't currently simulate in any meaningful way. See, what you just stated is this:

This is the way that we think as individual players playing this game. We think this way because we can only fly one ship at a time.

If there was a strategic element to this game - if we could play as the leader of a minor faction, then you would thinking more like this:

To put that another way, imagine you were the leader of a minor faction and you knew that a rival faction was about to attack you. You knew that they had a god-tier corvette they were going to send. You could invest a billion credits to counter their corvette, in which case you would be at best even with them, or you could counter it with this:

And I imagine it's obvious to everyone that if you could coordinate an attack by 100 Eagles (or even 50), you could defeat anyone's corvette.

See, small ships like Eagles absolutely do have a place in the ED universe - in the simulated universe that we're supposed to pretend to be living in. They just don't have a place in the game, because in the game we are individuals flying single ships and the universe isn't actually simulated - ships just spawn randomly and nobody actually pays for them.

If the universe was real, then nobody would fly around in a corvette without escort. You'd know that your corvette was vulnerable to a swarm of small ships with torpedoes. So maybe you'd have gunships armed with packhounds as escort. If a bunch of small ships show up, your gunships would make short work of them.

...but knowing this, your enemy might plan a first wave to specifically target your gunships - maybe a few iCouriers with short-range beam weapons. So then maybe you'd try to counter that. Etc. etc.

What you said above is absolutely true, but it's only true because this game is about individuals flying single ships.

 

[voidwalker]

Yeah... I was about to say something about small ships not having a place. They certainly have a place for everyone flying them, don't they. Like all the new players. And myself. I love the small ships. The Eagle is one of my favourites of all time.

 

[Kenneth McGrew]

snippy mcsnipface.

ah yes using your logic i calculated the top speed of a Bugatti veyron

 

[Avetorian]

This is most definitely true, but it hints at something the game doesn't currently simulate in any meaningful way. See, what you just stated is this:



This is the way that we think as individual players playing this game. We think this way because we can only fly one ship at a time.

If there was a strategic element to this game - if we could play as the leader of a minor faction, then you would thinking more like this:



To put that another way, imagine you were the leader of a minor faction and you knew that a rival faction was about to attack you. You knew that they had a god-tier corvette they were going to send. You could invest a billion credits to counter their corvette, in which case you would be at best even with them, or you could counter it with this:



And I imagine it's obvious to everyone that if you could coordinate an attack by 100 Eagles (or even 50), you could defeat anyone's corvette.

See, small ships like Eagles absolutely do have a place in the ED universe - in the simulated universe that we're supposed to pretend to be living in. They just don't have a place in the game, because in the game we are individuals flying single ships and the universe isn't actually simulated - ships just spawn randomly and nobody actually pays for them.

If the universe was real, then nobody would fly around in a corvette without escort. You'd know that your corvette was vulnerable to a swarm of small ships with torpedoes. So maybe you'd have gunships armed with packhounds as escort. If a bunch of small ships show up, your gunships would make short work of them.

...but knowing this, your enemy might plan a first wave to specifically target your gunships - maybe a few iCouriers with short-range beam weapons. So then maybe you'd try to counter that. Etc. etc.

What you said above is absolutely true, but it's only true because this game is about individuals flying single ships.

Right but also in a simulated Universe, you're not gonna throw 100 eagles at a corvette, that's just silly, but I do see your point. However consider that you might be throwing those 100 eagles at 10-15 corvettes with fighters deployed. What I'm personally advocating is specialized combat vessels, different roles of combat. Support, DPS, Ewar, Interceptor. And so on. imagine you only needed 5 ewar eagles to mess with the corvettes sensors while a few bombers fire off torpedos. Just saying.

 

[sidereal6]

ah yes using your logic i calculated the top speed of a Bugatti veyron

lol! That's not my logic at all!

I'm certain you're joking, in which case, I laugh along with you. But if you're really trying to be serious, please let me know, because that's kind of sad, and you'll want someone to explain it to you.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

I think the worst thing in combat, just on top of the engrindeers, is the interdiction minigame.

It's stupid and glitchy, because it doesn't serve any purpose in any mode.

Pvp :
Against a ganker from Australia behind a VPN, P2P lag will simply mean the receiver will loose every single time. There is no ship stat involved in this, no turn rate to get an edge. Every commander and his dog will state this :
"lose it and high wake"
This is one case of rare broken game design where you actively need to lose to be able to escape.

Pve : Easy-peasy to win the minigmae. The result : Those pirates'll spawn wherever you go anyway, even if this means to escort you to the station while barking.

In term of design : It's not adapted to Elite's net architecture. It's ugly : a tunnel with jpeg and a cross to move around. It's bypassed totally by a block feature (Stig's favoutrite) against Pvper. Gameplay wize it's simply inconsequential. Ironic when you think lore describes FSD jumps as a risky business, getting another ship remotely out of SC thanks to presumed thargoid's magic will barely scratch your paint here. And gankers can chain it.

They could have design some dueling device for 1v1 in witchspace, with damage and avaries applied as a leveling field.

As of now, simply removing the minigame placeholder and making interdicted ships autosubmit would just be an improvement.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

Straight up remove emmisive, nerf seekers/SB's and make silent running ships great again!

REINSTATE TLB FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

Pvp :
Against a ganker from Australia behind a VPN, P2P lag will simply mean the receiver will loose every single time. There is no ship stat involved in this, no turn rate to get an edge. Every commander and his dog will state this :
"lose it and high wake"
This is one case of rare broken game design where you actively need to lose to be able to escape.

This is wrong fella. I've been running my net through a 4g phone connection for a while now. Connection has very little to do with it unless it's struggling to make the bridge fully to the other players line, then you might find yourself facing the wrong way randomly in the interdiction, but it's pretty rare. Lose the VPn. It's probably the cause.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

This is wrong fella. I've been running my net through a 4g phone connection for a while now. Connection has very little to do with it unless it's struggling to make the bridge fully to the other players line, then you might find yourself facing the wrong way randomly in the interdiction, but it's pretty rare. Lose the VPn. It's probably the cause.

Lol. Continental optical landline here. Tested it against my friend in the same country on wifi with fair amount of packet loss. He won interdictions against me consistently while initiating. Player interaction is all about connexion, you play an online game...

 

[House0fDerp]

ah yes using your logic i calculated the top speed of a Bugatti veyron

You might want to reread that post if you somehow thought it meant single stat performance was directly, linearly related to price. Because it doesn't even remotely come close to saying that.

 

[DeathFish]

Arcade all ready?

I like your thinking! Unfortunately, as someone else said, ED is just an arcade game now....

To be fair, Elite has always had arcade aspects. For example, you can hear asteroids exploding, you can jump a thousand light years and don’t return to discover the people who handed you the contract are centuries dead, the acceleration to beyond light speed in four seconds doesn’t squash you flat, and you can fly faster than light in straight lines.

Maybe the question is where the boundary between trampling all over physics to make the game possible and making it as fun as possible lies? One of the biggest challenges is that the game caters to so many different special interest groups that it isn’t possible to strike a good compromise for everyone any more.

My only real issue with the game, apart from bugs, is that Frontier are almost afraid of making the game fun. That doesn’t mean to say it needs to be easy, but Elite would benefit from having less of the hair shirt ethic built into it. For example, lots of players love blowing up asteroids, because it is such a great effect. Why not double the number of core asteroids, and halve the yield? Much the same line of thinking applies here, and as someone who has played on and off for years, I am all in favour of the game changing to provide new challenges—and more fun—for everyone.

 

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

Over the years on the forums I have come to think more and more that FDEV shouldn't read them at all and just go ahead and do what they want.

I have seen all sorts of requests, suggestions, ways and methods of improving the game but there's one thing about them all that's clear, they are about improving the game for one person, so it goes, "these are my ideas, do it and the game will be much better" and then when we get a few people come on saying different we often get an epic rant against people who are "afraid of change." Games by committee don't work because every single person on the committee, while seemingly all in agreement, actually have a completely different idea of what is going on to everyone else.

The forums are here basically to allow people to let off steam, get feedback on features and of course bug reports, it's not here to design a game, no forum ever has been there for that purpose, and the moment you start going down that line you are just wasting your time because it's almost guaranteed that every single person here has their own idea of how to improve the game. Why do you think FDEV moved away from the model that got us paid and delayed ship transfers? Because that way lies madness, people are still arguing over it years later, it's gone on longer than Brexit!

By all means let off steam, make suggestion, put ideas forward, but never get upset or annoyed if FDEV completely ignores everything you post because they have a plan already in place and they are not going to change it because someone in the forum wants it to go in a different direction.

You're right. Seriously, if Fdev listened to the Suggestion forum, we'd have 100 multirole ships who were equal in every single regard and could jump 20184793014 lys, required no engineering, all came with super light weight A rated modules, 25 game play modes with only one of them being PVP mode, and in that mode, you couldn't kill anything and could only go "bang bang, I got you". Also in this magical game, every user would be able to discover something extremely rare that only they found, wasn't too difficult, wasn't too hard and unlocked the mysteries of the universe. It's nauseating reading some of the dumb suggestions in the suggestion forum.

 

[DeathFish]

Get a DbS. Set it up for Haz-Res duties, and go pew-pew. I think you'll find that your assertion isn't true.

Can we have a TL;DR too - there's altogether too much hard to read text in your post, and I am very lazy with a short atten

Hey man, no worries, the OP may not have had you specifically in mind when he posted. Just relax.

 

[DeathFish]

You're right. Seriously, if Fdev listened to the Suggestion forum, we'd have 100 multirole ships who were equal in every single regard and could jump 20184793014 lys, required no engineering, all came with super light weight A rated modules, 25 game play modes with only one of them being PVP mode, and in that mode, you couldn't kill anything and could only go "bang bang, I got you". Also in this magical game, every user would be able to discover something extremely rare that only they found, wasn't too difficult, wasn't too hard and unlocked the mysteries of the universe. It's nauseating reading some of the dumb suggestions in the suggestion forum.

If Frontier did more than skim 10% of the threads in here, I would be amazed—they probably don’t even go that far. Life is too short!