It's time to revisit the PVP rebuy. Distant Ganks 2 makes the point.

[NeilF]

Yes, I suspect you're right. I would guess that a big driving force for many PKers is to ruin someone else's fun. But allowing a ship to continue, when it has just been blown to shreds certainly isn't worthy of being included in the game. Would love to see it as a social experiment though

Agreed. Agreed and Agreed. It's simply a mental exercise in demonstrating the caliber/nature of the folks in question...

 

[Powderpanic]

Advocate A - "Please show me the proof of your argument."

Advocate B - The proof doesn't exist, so I am going to change the narrative slightly. "How about you go and find the proof"

Powerpanic
The Voice of Griefing

 

[StevieG]

Given the number of players who play Solo because they don't want to meet the players who *don't* shoot at them either - because they can still block the landing pads, or have a silly name, or try to chat, or whatever it is they object to - this is not going to work.

I don't get this idea of "getting more people into Open by changing how it works". By far the most effective thing Frontier has done over the last four years for "getting more people into Open" has been to sell the game in general to more people, thereby increasing the number of players in Open. And by far the second most effective thing they did was improving the instancing so that if you were in Open in the same place as another player you stood a decent chance of actually seeing them.

When I first started playing (a few months after release), I saw about five other players in Open in the first four or five months - most of which was spent in the Alliance core systems, so it's not like I was somewhere obscure. The first time someone tried to talk to me I was so surprised that they'd given up and left the instance before I remembered what key the comms panel was bound to... Nowadays I regularly see that many players in a day. Sometimes I see that many just docked at a single station. And I'm out in Colonia, so these are not "busy" systems by the standards of the main bubble.

There's not a problem in the first place with the number of players in Open. And given the choice between "significantly redevelop the 'rules' of Open so that maybe a net 5% extra players find it appealing" or "add some more general content to all modes so 20% more people buy the game or play it 20% longer having bought it" ... well, I know which I'd rather Frontier spent their time on.

I take your 5% and times it by 10. Open offers alot more than shooting at or being shot at by another CMDR. The first 3-4 months of the game Open was such a nice place, nice pirates, nice pvp fights, nice interactions. That nice gaming atmosphere was gradually eroded away with Engineering being the final nail in the coffin. All those private groups for DW2 are not needed if Open was more inclusive of all ED CMDRs gaming styles.

 

[AlexAndTheDJ]

Advocate A - "Please show me the proof of your argument."

Advocate B - The proof doesn't exist, so I am going to change the narrative slightly. "How about you go and find the proof"

Powerpanic
The Voice of Griefing

Indeed

 

[sollisb]

Of course. Barely anybody reads such things but if you want me to entertain your argument you need either supply a direct quotation, or index the relevant information.

You have me mixed up with someone who cares what you want to be entertained by.

Ignorance is never accepted as an excuse.

 

[sollisb]

Advocate A - "Please show me the proof of your argument."

Advocate B - The proof doesn't exist, so I am going to change the narrative slightly. "How about you go and find the proof"

Powerpanic
The Voice of Griefing

The proof is in the EULA/Code Of Conduct. You seem to have a modicum of reading ability, so why not branch out from comics and story books and read something pertinent to your posts? I can help you with the big words if you need.

 

[AlexAndTheDJ]

You have me mixed up with someone who cares what you want to be entertained by.

Ignorance is never accepted as an excuse.

And one's word is never accepted as evidence (except in special cases, which this most certainly is not).

Shall I demonstrate how silly your argument is?

Ok, ready? It clearly states in FDevs document entitled "PvP and PvE rules, notes and enforcements" that complaining about PK kills is a bannable offence. Go and see for yourself!

 

[Powderpanic]

The proof is in the EULA/Code Of Conduct. You seem to have a modicum of reading ability, so why not branch out from comics and story books and read something pertinent to your posts? I can help you with the big words if you need.

Yes i find reading very difficult.

Perhaps you could help someone as mentally deficient as me, by showing me exactly the part of the TOS.

Being as slow and stupid as I am, I would find it near impossible to filter through so many words, let alone interpret their meaning.

Please brain overlord. Help me...

On no, i have swallowed my own tongue again BRB *gargle gargle

Powerpanic
The Voice of Griefing

 

[sollisb]

Yes i find reading very difficult.

Perhaps you could help someone as mentally deficient as me, by showing me exactly the part of the TOS.

Being as slow and stupid as I am, I would find it near impossible to filter through so many words, let alone interpret their meaning.

Please brain overlord. Help me...

On no, i have swallowed my own tongue again BRB *gargle gargle

Powerpanic
The Voice of Griefing

Acceptance of your failures is a great step to understanding where you can improve.

o7

 

[Ephraim Stone]

Dude, there's no point. There's never a point. For years now I have gotten sucked into arguments on forums and Facebook and other places. I've written essays defending my position with carefully thought out arguments and there's JUST. NO. POINT.

Why? Because one way or another it goes in a circle, over and over, until someone leaves, and the other person feels like a winner.

If I was to go back to our last post, for example, where you talk about the "dangers" of deep space, trying to refute my point... I could point out that it was pretty damn clear I was talking about the dangers I'd LIKE to see whereas you're arguing the lack of dangers that currently exist. Yet you're still talking as if it's refuting my point, even though you're not commenting on what I said at all.

But then you'd simply move on to the next point, and the next and the next, and eventually things will come full circle and the next thing you know we're talking about the dangers of space and lack of them again.

Spoiler alert, I'll tell you how it ends. I don't change your mind, you don't change my mind, we both end up wasting time and possibly frustrated. Even when you win these kind of things you lose.

So I snarked, yes, to make a point.

Honestly, as much as you believe you're having an honest discussion and are welcoming other viewpoints, I really doubt you're going to feel that way when you look back on this thread when it hits 90 pages or whatever. There will be newcomers to take up the cause on one side or another, people bowing out because they've had enough, and some people will think they've won while others will just go away annoyed, and some might just forget about this thread (or do what I'm about to do, hit unsubscribe).

I think a number of people keep going at it because they're afraid if they don't, the Devs might listen and the (gasp!) WRONG PEOPLE will get paid attention to during the next development cycle. Or that public opinion might be swayed unless they guard the gates.

(Quite frankly we all overestimate how much value our posts have, I suspect)

I keep getting sucked into these things, make my points as eloquently as I can, feel a twinge of joy when I get repped by someone, and then dread returning to the thread for... THE REBUTTAL... (dun dun duuuuunnnn...)

It's just not healthy, nothing is accomplished, and nobody's mind is ever changed. And the wheel keeps on turning.

If you're getting a kick out of all this then kudos, but I've hit my limit. I just hope I've learned my lesson this time.

(I'm sure I haven't, though...)

Well said!

 

[sollisb]

And one's word is never accepted as evidence (except in special cases, which this most certainly is not).

Shall I demonstrate how silly your argument is?

Ok, ready? It clearly states in FDevs document entitled "PvP and PvE rules, notes and enforcements" that complaining about PK kills is a bannable offence. Go and see for yourself!

We were talking about EULA/Code of Conduct. Which part of that are you having problems with? And just so we're clear; EULA/Code of Conduct trumps all. Unless you want to get legal and tell us how it doesn't? Or maybe you just want to raise a strawman to cover your inability to accept the truth?

 

[rincewindcymru]

Why not wing up and try to actually fight back? You know, strength in numbers?

Because an explorer ship capable of taking on a dedicated PvPer would jump about 10 lys and a cargo ship carry 32 tonnes! I have enough speed and shields to escape an Elite NPC but last around 10 seconds against even a single dedicated Pvper. What is required is appropriate punishment for CMDRs who kill other CMDRs.
In RL murder doesn't expire when you buy a new car you're still a killer and will be punished. The more you kill the more the manhunt against you will grow. Countries have co-operation and extradition agreements to help track these killers down. Popping across to France on the ferry and returning doesn't reset the offence. It is against to law to profit from crimes so there is a monetary punishment too.
My approach would be you're wanted across all systems until you are killed. You lose your assets. The more you kill the larger the asset loss. If you have killed multiple CMDRs DW Ganker you lose a lot more and the armed response gets faster.

 

[AlexAndTheDJ]

We were talking about EULA/Code of Conduct. Which part of that are you having problems with? And just so we're clear; EULA/Code of Conduct trumps all. Unless you want to get legal and tell us how it doesn't? Or maybe you just want to raise a strawman to cover your inability to accept the truth?

Have you read the "PvP and PvE rules, notes and enforcements" document?

And of course I can show the legal argument of how the EULA/Code of Conduct doesn't trump all. . . It hasn't been provided as evidence to substantiate your claims. So the alleged content on which you rely is merely heresay and speculation on your part. Am I to take your word on face value?

 

[Muetdhiver]

Why not wing up and try to actually fight back? You know, strength in numbers?

1. Need a trained PvP wing for that
2. Need them to be available
3. Need the perps to have some balls and not flee/CLog when actual opposition appears

For 1+2+3 to be not true one needs to be into PvP quite a bit. Yet here you are giving your precious advice to PvE minded players…

All one can do is plan to flee and flee well. There is not meaningfull way to fight back short of getting into PvP fully.

 

[Navynuke99]

No, but all three require you to be able to defend yourself.. at least long enough to HW

Theoretically. But the last couple of times I've gotten ganked, I was dead before my FSD had even finished charging for the high wake. And this was a Python with A-rated shields.

 

[Muetdhiver]

Theoretically. But the last couple of times I've gotten ganked, I was dead before my FSD had even finished charging for the high wake. And this was a Python with A-rated shields.

A-rated means nothing. You need engineering in any case other than a 1v1 gank attempt. It may be annoying, but fitting properly is the open "tax".

A way to see it is that a trader, miner or explorer willing to engage in open must be willing to debuff his income w.r.t. PvE for a higher chance to not get blown up for giggles.

The way I see it : PvE should require the same level of protections and planning.

 

[dm06]

Nah - no interest in PvP, at all - and not much in combat in general.

You do not have to do it by yourself. Organize then. Find people who will do that for you. Hire them to protect you. Pay them with rare commodities. FD gave us a lot of options in the game to cooperate with people, but people just want to fly in Open, o7 other pilots and have no rebuy.

 

[Robert Maynard]

You do not have to do it by yourself. Organize then. Find people who will do that for you. Hire them to protect you. Pay them with rare commodities.

That implies trust in any party contracted - trust is a scarce commodity.

 

[Jockey79]

As you're the one pushing this point, I'd appreciate if you could copy and paste the relevant information, or at least point to which section/paragraph/line it is mentioned. We do it in the legal business and it makes for a much easier time for all.

By the time you typed this, you could have hit Google and found it yourself;

https://www.frontierstore.net/ed-eula/

4. Acceptable Use Restrictions
4.1 You may not use the Game or any Online Features in any unlawful manner, for any unlawful purpose, or in any manner inconsistent with this EULA, or act fraudulently or maliciously, including but not limited to hacking into, inserting malicious code (including viruses or harmful data) into the Game, any Online Features or any operating system.

7.3 Communication and interaction with other users
7.3.1 The Game and/or Online Features may allow communications between users by means including but not limited to text and voice. When using such features you must use common sense and good manners, your behaviour, conduct and communications must be considerate to other users and you must not be directly or indirectly offensive, threatening, harassing or bullying to others or violate any applicable laws including but not limited to anti-discrimination legislation based on race, ethnicity, religion, gender or sexual orientation.

Dishonestly requesting to join a PG for the sole purpose of breaking the rules of that PG (Joining Mobius PvE groups and then shooting people for example) is malicious bullying and harassment.

Not that any of this matters, as those who do it are clearly not punished for it, by the fact they still post YT videos of them playing.
So the entire EULA isn't even worth the paper it's printed on (if any).

 

[sollisb]

Have you read the "PvP and PvE rules, notes and enforcements" document?

And of course I can show the legal argument of how the EULA/Code of Conduct doesn't trump all. . . It hasn't been provided as evidence to substantiate your claims. So the alleged content on which you rely is merely heresay and speculation on your part. Am I to take your word on face value?

You haven't read the EULA covering the game, therefore in your 'legal' opinion, it does not exist, or at best, is heresay and speculation. That demotes any credibility you 'may' have had, to a grand total of zero.

We're done.