Mamba vs Phantom comparison

[Vedmo]

I don't use same weps as you on my Phantom, but this is an alteration of your link that gets close to mine: https://s.orbis.zone/1Q8r

I don't stick around to fight in pvp though, so purely pve, but it can take a pounding without losing shields, and plenty of hull tankability until back up if they do drop.

I also don't have heat issues with the 6 scb, but I'm also using 2 thermal vent beams, so that might not mean much.

 

[Vedmo]

I didn't see your last post when I posted, or I wouldn't have linked the bi-weaves! For what you're aiming for, I'd say you've done a fine job with that Phantom build. I'm actually using the bi-weaves build to help myself do less face tanking, seeing how well I can keep them up.

I've had a lot of fun with Federal ships and SRP/shield builds, so respect for trying something different.

 

[Krash]

I didn't see your last post when I posted, or I wouldn't have linked the bi-weaves! For what you're aiming for, I'd say you've done a fine job with that Phantom build. I'm actually using the bi-weaves build to help myself do less face tanking, seeing how well I can keep them up.

I've had a lot of fun with Federal ships and SRP/shield builds, so respect for trying something different.

Yeah, I realize now my thread title/OP may have rubbed some people the wrong way. I wasn't very clear on my intentions. Bob is good at drawing that out of people

 

[Bryan K]

Nice try, but I see more CMDRs flying phantoms in combat.

Their mistake, IMO. The Phantom is much less suited to combat than its big brother the Mk.II. I use my Phantom for exploration, and as a general runabout.

 

[Krash]

Their mistake, IMO. The Phantom is much less suited to combat than its big brother the Mk.II. I use my Phantom for exploration, and as a general runabout.

You might be shocked to learn I agree with you. I chose the phantom for this project because its faster than the MkII and more agile than the Mamba. I might very well fail miserably. Don't laugh too hard, ok?

 

[psylim]

Not sure where you got your DPS numbers. Coriolis numbers yout linked gives the Mamba a ~10% DPS advantage. It is actually bigger than this, because Coriolis greatly exaggerated Railgun DPS (skewing you Phantom DPS to look higher than it really is). Coriolis rail DPS assumes you can spam rails which I haven’t seen anybody able to pull off.

If you want to compare DPS numbers of differing ships you need to load them out similarly (i usually use all fixed multi’s to understand how different HP configurations affect DPS)

 

[fus roh potato]

Phantom

Mamba

Quick summary:

	mamba	phantom
boost	591	570
MJ	2732	2440
Armor	1566	461
DPS	668	810
Agility	3	3
Jump	17	27

The phantom is more agile than the mamba (not reflected in the 3 score), but I dont know if that's enough to overcome its other shortcomings in combat. I would rather have the Mamba, probably just my piloting skill level and style preference.

There's few errors here that make a very big difference.

The boost of a Mamba is between 610 and 620 and for a Phantom 580-585 unless you make them pointlessly heavy. Excessive weight can often cost more survival issues than a few less HP. Build to the ship's advantage.

The Mamba has more than twice the acceleration of the Phantom so I don't know where you're getting agility from. While their tracking rates are approximately the same, that's not by definition agility or maneuverability. This was poorly worded and defined by frontier. Maneuverability is the ability to change translational vector, to change flight path, not the direction you're looking. The Phantom can only gain 600 m/s in a single boost but the Mamba can gain 1200+. It can literally go from top speed in one direction to top speed in the other off a single boost, just like the FDL. That is a significant advantage to the Mamba in terms of agility, maneuverability, nimbleness, etc...

The Phantom has so much room for HRPs that 461 is not realistic. We fly it with 3600-4000. That may make the Phantom sound better, but the ability for a ship to avoid and escape damage altogether usually favors the more agile ship despite small differences in effective HP. This is why T10's with 10k hull get scrapped in seconds, how much you can take vs how much you can avoid taking.

The Mamba has a greater burst potential running more + larger weapons, but the distro of the Phantom gives the phantom more long term DPS. The DPS of each is strongly determined by the weapons and flying style. It's not something you can really put a number on. For example, if both are plasma jousting, the Mamba will win. If both are using long range beams, the Phantom will win.

The Phantom's most promising quality is its mass lock factor, but in a team fight, competent pilots should generally do better in a mamba for similar reasons an FDL will beat an MK2. Kraits take a lot longer to get moving and that is the dominating factor.

 

[Krash]

There's few errors here that make a very big difference.

The boost of a Mamba is between 610 and 620 and for a Phantom 580-585 unless you make them pointlessly heavy. Excessive weight can often cost more survival issues than a few less HP. Build to the ship's advantage.

The Mamba has more than twice the acceleration of the Phantom so I don't know where you're getting agility from. While their tracking rates are approximately the same, that's not by definition agility or maneuverability. This was poorly worded and defined by frontier. Maneuverability is the ability to change translational vector, to change flight path, not the direction you're looking. The Phantom can only gain 600 m/s in a single boost but the Mamba can gain 1200+. It can literally go from top speed in one direction to top speed in the other off a single boost, just like the FDL. That is a significant advantage to the Mamba in terms of agility, maneuverability, nimbleness, etc...

The Phantom has so much room for HRPs that 461 is not realistic. We fly it with 3600-4000. That may make the Phantom sound better, but the ability for a ship to avoid and escape damage altogether usually favors the more agile ship despite small differences in effective HP. This is why T10's with 10k hull get scrapped in seconds, how much you can take vs how much you can avoid taking.

The Mamba has a greater burst potential running more + larger weapons, but the distro of the Phantom gives the phantom more long term DPS. The DPS of each is strongly determined by the weapons and flying style. It's not something you can really put a number on. For example, if both are plasma jousting, the Mamba will win. If both are using long range beams, the Phantom will win.

The Phantom's most promising quality is its mass lock factor, but in a team fight, competent pilots should generally do better in a mamba for similar reasons an FDL will beat an MK2. Kraits take a lot longer to get moving and that is the dominating factor.

Thanks for the great response. My take away from this is that there is a dedicated player group using the Phantom for combat? Hybrid hull tank you say? I just got through testing my blasphemous shield tank in a hazres and I fell in love with the endless boosts and almost magical heat management. SCB with no need for heat sinks. Rail shot after rail shot with no heat warning alerts. All of this with a 0.45 efficiency powerplant :O

 

[Spacecat]

I was actually surprised how much I like the Mamba. I wish the boost sound worked right though. It always seems to cut off weirdly.

 

[Krash]

I was actually surprised how much I like the Mamba. I wish the boost sound worked right though. It always seems to cut off weirdly.

Same here. I don't have the same level of confidence in the Mamba as I do in the FDL for real PvP, but for our player group practices I have a lot of fun in it. How do you deal with the pitch rate? Even FAoff, the Mamba pitches like one of the big ships.

 

[fus roh potato]

Thanks for the great response. My take away from this is that there is a dedicated player group using the Phantom for combat? Hybrid hull tank you say? I just got through testing my blasphemous shield tank in a hazres and I fell in love with the endless boosts and almost magical heat management. SCB with no need for heat sinks. Rail shot after rail shot with no heat warning alerts. All of this with a 0.45 efficiency powerplant :O

A prismatic bank setup certainly has a lot more HP to tank with, but you'll be held back by heat management without sinks. Problem is, the Krait can hold a lot of banks but not many sinks. In order to keep boosting around to avoid damage, and to continue applying offensive pressure, you'll need a venting beam or two. By losing out on boosts or missing target-on time, facing mines or reverb, a lot of that extra HP may go to waste really fast.

How do you deal with the pitch rate? Even FAoff, the Mamba pitches like one of the big ships.

Reading ahead, careful planning, a little patience and a good headlook system or VR. It's not easy to squeeze out good performance in that ship with a fixed view and FAon.

 

[cmdrrdmc]

I think the Kraits are better off as hybrid hull-tanks because of all the extra weight and power needed by shield reinforcements, and the bank/sink dilemma with the limited utility mounts mentioned earlier. They also perma-boost on 2 pips, so you can fly a lot more aggressively and evasively by keeping more in eng. I converted my MkII build to a Phantom in EDSY for fun, and would use something like this:

https://edshipyard.net/builds/3bg

Decent shields that rebuild fast, and a lot of hull. And it's much faster and more agile than a heavy shieldtank.

 

[Bortas]

The phantom is more agile than the mamba (not reflected in the 3 score), but I dont know if that's enough to overcome its other shortcomings in combat. I would rather have the Mamba, probably just my piloting skill level and style preference.

Both are indeed comparable and can be flown as shield tanks. Wouldn't set a foot into a combat ship with 460 hull hp, though. Better fit some military or reactive armor, throw out a GSB or two and fit some HRPs, or you will have a really bad day, should you ever lose your shields (i.e. due to a reverberating cascade attack), or meet someone with phasing sequence.

Another question is... if someone choses to use a Phantom and fit it as shield tank... why not just use the Krait Mk2 instead, which can bring an additional hardpoint, a fighter and a resaonably sized SCB or two to the battlefield.

 

[Krash]

Both are indeed comparable and can be flown as shield tanks. Wouldn't set a foot into a combat ship with 460 hull hp, though. Better throw out a GSB or two and fit some HRPs, or you will have a really bad day, should you ever lose your shields (i.e. due to a reverberating cascade attack), or meet someone with phasing sequence.

Another question is... if someone choses to use a Phantom and fit it as shield tank... why not just use the Krait Mk2 instead, which can bring an additional hardpoint, a fighter and a resaonably sized SCB or two to the battlefield.

You are correct, but I can't keep the speed and MJ once I start adding HRP. Same reason for not using the Mk2, its not as fast. However, the biggest drawback for taking this out in the wild is the rebuy (7.2mil) compared to the mamba (4.8mil). So far, I'm back to square one and using the Mamba when I want a raw speed combat ship.

 

[CMDR Plexus Ironrot]

Phantom

Mamba

Quick summary:

	mamba	phantom
boost	591	570
MJ	2732	2440
Armor	1566	461
DPS	668	810
Agility	3	3
Jump	17	27
Rebuy	4.8m	7.2m

The phantom is more agile than the mamba (not reflected in the 3 score), but I dont know if that's enough to overcome its other shortcomings in combat. I would rather have the Mamba, probably just my piloting skill level and style preference.

Thanks for putting this together Krash! I am still on the fence on both. Did not enjoy my time in a Mamba but maybe the patches have helped. The Phantom seems good but I am still working on mine. Good thing is I can Run Dual SRB or OC and it will do fine! on the phatom that is. How is the Mambas placement. It looks bad I did not do any combat in it when I tried it. Might Need to pick one up.

 

[Krash]

Thanks for putting this together Krash! I am still on the fence on both. Did not enjoy my time in a Mamba but maybe the patches have helped. The Phantom seems good but I am still working on mine. Good thing is I can Run Dual SRB or OC and it will do fine! on the phatom that is. How is the Mambas placement. It looks bad I did not do any combat in it when I tried it. Might Need to pick one up.

I'm amazed at how well the phantom does with G5 OC powerplant. This outrageous build needs 38mj, so I could've stopped at G4 but I was going for broke. I can boost all day, fire these weps on a lazy 4/1/1 pip setting and leave it there. No heat issues; no heat sinks required. This was in a PvE setting, so take that for what its worth. If shields drop or someone comes at me with phasing, I'm dead.

The Large HP on the mamba are a challenge for fixed convergence.

 

[Flin]

Mamba and FDL are the ships for raw speed combat.

However have found Phantom great for focusing/practing fix weapons.

Good distributor and heat for low pip and heat management so as to focus on aiming. Good speed to dictate range.

So 2 large long range fixed beam with thermal vent paired with your rails could be an interesting combo. But some may not like this combo and style.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

Krait doesnt melt can easily run OC pa's, it has a superior biweave to a cheiftan in terms of capacity and very similar recharge. it has a C7 distro and the same potential damage output as a FAS.

The Mamba is objesctively worse than most combat ships, poor turn rates, crap convergence, heat issues and meh shields.

I'd say the phantom is a bit OP. I dont like either flight model but the Phantom stands out as being the truly useful one in any form of combat. The mamba was good when it handled better and was slightly slower, post "Buff" (or nerf depending on your preference) it is a waste of quite a substantial amount of money. It looks awesome, but it has nothing to add to the table that cant be found elsewhere bar DPS, and thats only potential DPS, an FDL is going to lay out more firepower because you can hit a larger volume of your shots per strike.

 

[cmdrrdmc]

can easily run OC pa's

Seriously? Can it run three OC PAs? How many volleys before overheating? Also what PP mod are you using.

edit: Oh you probably mean Phantom. Well, same question if so.

 

[Bortas]

Krait doesnt melt can easily run OC pa's, it has a superior biweave to a cheiftan in terms of capacity and very similar recharge. it has a C7 distro and the same potential damage output as a FAS.

Chieftain and FAS are extremely maneuverable, though... compared to them the Phantom handles like a Python