Piracy options for exploration data and data delivery missions

[rekurzion]

They would require no additional cargo space: since you can take a total of 20 missions cap data 'cargo' at 20 and exploration data as a fraction of a whole (i'll explain in a bit).

Why?

More gameplay options.

Example Scenarios

The Explorer...

Currently an explorer heading back to the bubble has no direct threat of their cargo. NPC's and CMDR's don't know about their cargo, but if the explorer encounters an aggressive ship and destroyed their cargo is lost with no option to negotiate like a trader may be able to. Imagine being able to parlay with a pirate and dump a portion or all of your scanned data. The explorer could dump a quarter, a half, three-quarters or all of their data in exchange for their life. Each portion has a value proportionate to the whole. If a pirate is able to acquire the goods they can turn it in for the equivalent profit. Also, a quick explorer who just lost their precious scan data can catch up to said human pirate and get their stuffs back.

NOTE: not sure how to handle ownership of the scans. seems to make more sense in this scenario to still award discovered and scanned to the CMDR who did the work. Maybe have stolen data only able to be sold on the black market with a 50% cut taking out and significantly reduced BGS impact.

Data Delivery Missions

Similar with exploration data except there are no partial portions. Stolen data can be sold back to competing factions and would lose value the farther you travel from the ~20ly range of the mission giver. Could be sold on the black market anywhere but farther away would generate significantly less reward.

Could offer missions for stealing data from a competing faction.

both of these would bring new piracy options and other gameplay.

How to detect?

The cargo manifest will return not only normal cargo but data and exploration data. for data it returns quantity and faction of origin and for exploration data only price.

Recon Limpet

attaches to ship with longer operation time which simulates hacking the target db (say 5-10 seconds). In this case the data is doubled and who ever turns it in first is awarded. So if its exploration data if the explorer CMDR is hacked but turns in their data first the hacked data becomes void. If it's a data delivery mission then if the CMDR turns in their mission first the hacked counterpart is voided.

OR

Use the Data Link Scanner

Must be close (less than 1km) and takes 30 seconds to complete. 15 seconds at 500 meter range. make the data link scanner a one button press. if you go out of range or lose line of site must re-press button.

Hatch Breaker Limpet

Engineering mod that focuses on releasing data. takes about 10 seconds to 'find, locate and purge' data from target computer db. Done this way the data is transferred to the new CMDR and no duplicate exists. Limpet will need to return to pirate ship and transfer data to computers. another 5 seconds or so. This should give an attacked commander time to target and shoot the limpet rather than trying to fight and destroy the pirate. engineering quality determines chance to hack a greater fraction of exploration data.

 

[varonica]

Currently an explorer heading back to the bubble has no direct threat of their cargo. NPC's and CMDR's don't know about their cargo, but if the explorer encounters an aggressive ship and destroyed their cargo is lost with no option to negotiate like a trader may be able to. Imagine being able to parlay with a pirate and dump a portion or all of your scanned data. The explorer could dump a quarter, a half, three-quarters or all of their data in exchange for their life. Each portion has a value proportionate to the whole. If a pirate is able to acquire the goods they can turn it in for the equivalent profit. Also, a quick explorer who just lost their precious scan data can catch up to said human pirate and get their stuffs back.

So;

1) An explorer coming back from a long trip can carry billions worth of data, far more than it's possible for any other form of goods exchange, it would make explorers the only target worth attacking and every explorer coming into the bubble in open would be dead in minutes, well me personally because I never give anything to filthy pirates, aaaaaar. All it will do is make the explorer/trader gap much larger.

2) Who gets first discovered tags, first mapped tags, does the pirate who stole the data get exploration ranks for turning it in.

3) Explorer ship are lightly armed and lightly defended, yeah have fun interdicting a pirate, oh that's right I don't carry an interdictor, and shoot him with my weapons until he surrender my data, oh that's right I don't carry guns, and chase him from system to system, oh that's right I don't have a wake scanner, in fact I am flying an exploration ship not suited for PvP engagements with a uber engineered death machine. So if I do in fact meet him by chance he will wither steal the rest of my data or just blow me up, thus making me lose the rest anyway.

4) All explorers will immediately swap to Solo and/or perfect the accidental combat disconnect, so nothing will be achieved by trying to punishing explorers for doing something you're not capable of doing yourself.

5) I can see this idea has been poorly thought through, but then that's what I expect from PvP focused players, everyone must be forced to be their content whether they like it or not!

 

[rekurzion]

1) it would put a mark on explorers yes. but explorers have other advantages as well. for one, we are coming from the black into the bubble and if we dump our data off at the first port there is an extremely small chance of any player CMDR's intercepting us. this is even an advantage over miners or at least on par with the risk a good miner would face since they have to go to a specific station to maximize their income. we can jump farther and are tied less to certain kinds of stations.

2) i think the first mapped should be the person who first mapped it. no need to change that mechanic as long as the data gets turned in. reduced exploration rank increase for the pirate, like 10% or something.

3) right now, if you come across an aggressive CMDR they may destroy you anyway. and really both players lose (explorer loses data, ganker gets no reward). a pirate will have to chose between data scanning or cargo scanning. also, its no thing for an explorer making billions to switch ships one the outskirts into something more reliable. like a cheap cobra or eagle for delivery. don't think so linear.

4) i'm not sure about that. some might. i wouldn't.

5) i don't pvp, at least not in the way you describe. i don't look for fights but i interact with as many folks as i can for better or for worse.

but thank you for your insult, it shows your intelligence.

with that said i enjoy interactions with other players. the idea first came about after losing a ton of exploration data and thinking of a way i could get it back in a meaningful player interaction. its also possible for explorers and traders to make content out of the pirates you know. i also had the idea after watching a star trek episode where there was a race to scan some planets and return the data and how elite could simulate that. cargo isn't the only worth stealing from someone. also, the threat will cascade down past explorers. with this idea anyone in possession of the data is a target.

(you gave me an idea) this also opens up the possibility of returning exploration data and gives bounty hunters something else to participate in. maybe the exploration data also has the commander owner tag so if a bounty hunter recovers stolen data from a pirate they can return it to the explorer.

a ship that wants to pirate out in the black is going to have to be built much differently than a bubble pirate. will have to carry a fuel scoop, maybe an afm and srv. they will need to carry limpets if they want to steal the data without making the duplicate, which means they also need cargo space for the limpets and a scanner. it will need to be able to survive and be fairly lightweight in order to not be weighed down by small jump ranges. all of which takes away from minmax combat builds.

a fully combat fitted ship out in the black would be at a great disadvantage hunting seasoned explorers. a soon as an explorer sees another commander and marks them as a threat they can make one jump in any direction and rid themselves of the pest probably for good. they can always come back to that system at a later date and finish their scans.

 

[varonica]

1) it would put a mark on explorers yes. but explorers have other advantages as well. for one, we are coming from the black into the bubble and if we dump our data off at the first port there is an extremely small chance of any player CMDR's intercepting us.

Very few actually do that, data is normally sold to increase reputation or affect the BGS and is often sold at multiple stations to spread it around. I personally have a particular station in mind where the data from this trip will be sold, it happens to be in the middle region of the bubble and all the details are posted on my exploration thread including where I am and what I am up to. So any pirate just has to check that thread and wait outside the station on my expected arrival date, so as a result I will be traveling through the bubble in solo.

Explorers often post these sorts of details as they explore because other explorers are interested, giving gankers, griefers and pirates a really good reason to attack us if all negative. As for pirating in the black, that's the silliest suggestion I have ever read. Pirates don't pirate where the chances of bumping into another ship is almost zero. I have traveled 125kly so far on this trip and do you know how many other ships I have seen since leaving the bubble, NPC and player driven? Zero, what pirate in their right mind would bother doing that when all they have to do is wait in the cosy bubble, or indeed Colonia mini bubble for the explorers to fly into their clutches?

 

[Captain Thea Kreutzer]

Explorers would be the only target for PvPers if this were ever implemented.

 

[varonica]

Explorers would be the only target for PvPers if this were ever implemented.

That's certainly the case, but lets make a few other points while we are here.

Explorers are by far the group least interested in PvP encounters, so forcing them on to explorers in particular seems unreasonable.

Explorers have the most to lose, by probably several thousand times once you take in the lost data as having an intrinsic as well as a monetary value.

Explorers have the least ability to defend themselves.

Making these changes to the game would be self defeating. Only explorers returning from expeditions would have enough data to make it worth pirating, explorers returning from expeditions would all change to flying in solo/pg whenever they are in an area where piracy is possible and where they have data to hand in, therefore there would be no data to be stolen by pirates so the time and effort put in by FDEV to make these changes would be just wasted time.

 

[varonica]

but thank you for your insult, it shows your intelligence.

Fortunately I know the difference between an Ad Hom attack and one that isn't.

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"^[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself

If you feel this was a personal attack rather than a comment on your idea you are free to use the "report post" button.

I in turn will feel free, when I see a silly idea, to call it silly without any compunction.

Oh, and while I am here I should point out that while my comment wasn't an Ad Hom attack yours actually was because it was attacking my intelligence, therefore attacking the person and not the argument.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

Explorers would be the only target for PvPers if this were ever implemented.

That's certainly the case

No, we'd still target whoever we wish to.

Credits are not much of a motivating factor, especially now that they are essentially free. Only a few if any PvP'ers care about tags.

We have other motivating factors, even if they are commonly dismissed in these forums.

As far as OP's idea, I agree with Varonica no pirate would bother trying to track in the black, there are no tools for this and chances of encounter near zero. Even in bubble, a pilot who knows what he/she is doing can easily defeat a wake scanner, the only tracking tool we have when pirating. It is hard to successfully find pirate targets even in the bubble (and here I mean going along with the whole act of trying to get void opals, etc - caring or pretending to care about credits. not finding a random gank)

So none of us would bother spending dozens of hours in deep space just to find no one.

 

[Marra Morgan]

They would require no additional cargo space: since you can take a total of 20 missions cap data 'cargo' at 20 and exploration data as a fraction of a whole (i'll explain in a bit).

Why?

More gameplay options.

Example Scenarios

The Explorer...

Currently an explorer heading back to the bubble has no direct threat of their cargo. NPC's and CMDR's don't know about their cargo, but if the explorer encounters an aggressive ship and destroyed their cargo is lost with no option to negotiate like a trader may be able to. Imagine being able to parlay with a pirate and dump a portion or all of your scanned data. The explorer could dump a quarter, a half, three-quarters or all of their data in exchange for their life. Each portion has a value proportionate to the whole. If a pirate is able to acquire the goods they can turn it in for the equivalent profit. Also, a quick explorer who just lost their precious scan data can catch up to said human pirate and get their stuffs back.

NOTE: not sure how to handle ownership of the scans. seems to make more sense in this scenario to still award discovered and scanned to the CMDR who did the work. Maybe have stolen data only able to be sold on the black market with a 50% cut taking out and significantly reduced BGS impact.

Data Delivery Missions

Similar with exploration data except there are no partial portions. Stolen data can be sold back to competing factions and would lose value the farther you travel from the ~20ly range of the mission giver. Could be sold on the black market anywhere but farther away would generate significantly less reward.

Could offer missions for stealing data from a competing faction.

both of these would bring new piracy options and other gameplay.

How to detect?

The cargo manifest will return not only normal cargo but data and exploration data. for data it returns quantity and faction of origin and for exploration data only price.

Recon Limpet

attaches to ship with longer operation time which simulates hacking the target db (say 5-10 seconds). In this case the data is doubled and who ever turns it in first is awarded. So if its exploration data if the explorer CMDR is hacked but turns in their data first the hacked data becomes void. If it's a data delivery mission then if the CMDR turns in their mission first the hacked counterpart is voided.

OR

Use the Data Link Scanner

Must be close (less than 1km) and takes 30 seconds to complete. 15 seconds at 500 meter range. make the data link scanner a one button press. if you go out of range or lose line of site must re-press button.

Hatch Breaker Limpet

Engineering mod that focuses on releasing data. takes about 10 seconds to 'find, locate and purge' data from target computer db. Done this way the data is transferred to the new CMDR and no duplicate exists. Limpet will need to return to pirate ship and transfer data to computers. another 5 seconds or so. This should give an attacked commander time to target and shoot the limpet rather than trying to fight and destroy the pirate. engineering quality determines chance to hack a greater fraction of exploration data.

It might make more sense to disallow hacking NPC's since they don't "turn anything in"

+1

There's good potential here!

I've always liked the idea of hacking and stealing data, it makes for a good alternative to traditional cargo piracy.

 

[Rebel Yell]

Hmmm... interesting.

I believe FDEVs should have a look at how piracy could be improved in ED.

 

[Nadreck]

Given the lore surrounding Universal Cartographics (check the Codex), the data is unhackable, so it won't be possible to steal first-discovered tags and suchlike. However, UG can access it, and might (for instance) pay 50% of the standard payout to the person who hands it in, and transfer the other 50% to the account of the original gatherer. It is in their interests to obtain the data, from whoever has it.

It would make sense to integrate this with the "recoverable black box" concept for saving exploration data on ship destruction: so instead the explorer has the option of manually ejecting the data cache with its transponder set to general broadcast.

 

[EWanderer]

Hmmm... interesting.

I believe FDEVs should have a look at how piracy could be improved in ED.

There are far better ways to work on piracy. UC went to great lengths to ensure Data couldn't be faked, I don't think a hack will be able to retrieve the data from the Black Box and award the Money to someone else. This suggestion was made in the past and didn't go anywhere in the Discussion, Explorers don't like being attacked in their Ships, that never were designed to withstand a fully engineered Combat Ship and PvP Persons or advocates, don't see or want to see the problem with the imbalance or realize, how the other person feels about loosing months of work in an instant.
You want to have more stuff to pirate: We have Megaships, that could be made more interesting as a heist target or have some more profitable stuff inside them. In both cases you would have a good amount of challenge, that could satisfy you beyond pure greed.

 

[rekurzion]

oh i forgot one other part...

passengers should be cargo as well with the option to either pirate to slavery or return to faction of origin.

the crux of the idea is that elite has always been about the trader, their cargo and the pirate in a constant game of cat and mouse. but with exploration data, data delivery and passengers there is 'cargo' that is unaffected by this dynamic.

 

[rekurzion]

Given the lore surrounding Universal Cartographics (check the Codex), the data is unhackable, so it won't be possible to steal first-discovered tags and suchlike. However, UG can access it, and might (for instance) pay 50% of the standard payout to the person who hands it in, and transfer the other 50% to the account of the original gatherer. It is in their interests to obtain the data, from whoever has it.

It would make sense to integrate this with the "recoverable black box" concept for saving exploration data on ship destruction: so instead the explorer has the option of manually ejecting the data cache with its transponder set to general broadcast.

yeah i was playing with the idea of still giving a payout to the original explorer but it seemed weird to pay the victim of stolen cargo when its pawned off. maybe give explorers a way to cash in first discovered/scanned while in the black but have a separate reward for turning the detailed data scans into a UC.

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

I'm all for hacking data delivery missions. I'd prefer the use of the data link scanner over limpets, but even better would be a new mechanic where some skill is required to successfully hack into a system, even if it's triggered/initiated by the scanner or limpet. Yes, that would probably mean another mini-game, but if done well it could be fun.

As for hacking exploration data, there are some valid concerns pointed out in this thread.

What I would suggest as an alternative is that hacking exploration data works more like espionage, where if you're caught you're done.

Specifically, you'd need to hack into the target ship's system and download the exploration data without being detected.
If the hacking attempt is detected, the data gets flagged in the Universal Cartographics database, and you won't be able to sell it.
Failing in the hacking mini-game for exploration data will cause your hacking attempt to be detected, and obviously, attacking the ship will also get you detected.
Failing at the hacking mini-game for data delivery missions will cause your hacking attempt to be detected, and creates a chance for some of the data to be corrupt, so you won't be able to cash in one or more of them.

Being detected hacking data delivery missions won't result in an inability to sell/deliver the data as it would with exploration data, as it's not offered the same protections that UC provides.

One aspect of the hacking process/mini-game should be that you're downloading the data over time, so the longer you're able to keep it up, the more exploration data or delivery missions you're able to download, and you can stop at any time to walk away with what you have so far. The hacking process could possibly increase in difficulty as you continue to download, so a choice must be made to measure your skills against your chances. The idea here being that it's you against the target ship's dynamic AI data protection, and you work to get around it without triggering it.

Downloading data for delivery missions removes them from the target ship, but not so with exploration data, as it's black-boxed, whereas data for delivery missions is just kept encrypted on the system drive.

If you've downloaded exploration data, then you need to get to a station to sell it before the explorer does. If you don't make the sale first, either you simply can't sell the data, or possibly you get caught red-handed if you try, and you get issued a fine.
Explorers can still sell their own data even if a hacker sells it somewhere first, and they don't lose their First discovered/mapped/etc tags.

Importantly, the target of the hack is not notified of a scan or hacking attempt unless that attempt fails.
If the target of the hack has the "Report Crimes Against Me" option enabled, then the hacker is issued a fine if they fail in their attempt.

 

[Rebel Yell]

There are far better ways to work on piracy. UC went to great lengths to ensure Data couldn't be faked, I don't think a hack will be able to retrieve the data from the Black Box and award the Money to someone else. This suggestion was made in the past and didn't go anywhere in the Discussion, Explorers don't like being attacked in their Ships, that never were designed to withstand a fully engineered Combat Ship and PvP Persons or advocates, don't see or want to see the problem with the imbalance or realize, how the other person feels about loosing months of work in an instant.
You want to have more stuff to pirate: We have Megaships, that could be made more interesting as a heist target or have some more profitable stuff inside them. In both cases you would have a good amount of challenge, that could satisfy you beyond pure greed.

Believe me, I like piracy because of the challenge, human interaction and RP. Greed balance is negative by far (rebuys, jail, etc) and what I do really would like to have is an improvement of such interaction. The challenge is a bit more in our hands... like I did in the last CG pirating in an unengineered Hauler.

 

[rekurzion]

Spoiler

I'm all for hacking data delivery missions. I'd prefer the use of the data link scanner over limpets, but even better would be a new mechanic where some skill is required to successfully hack into a system, even if it's triggered/initiated by the scanner or limpet. Yes, that would probably mean another mini-game, but if done well it could be fun.

As for hacking exploration data, there are some valid concerns pointed out in this thread.

What I would suggest as an alternative is that hacking exploration data works more like espionage, where if you're caught you're done.

Specifically, you'd need to hack into the target ship's system and download the exploration data without being detected.
If the hacking attempt is detected, the data gets flagged in the Universal Cartographics database, and you won't be able to sell it.
Failing in the hacking mini-game for exploration data will cause your hacking attempt to be detected, and obviously, attacking the ship will also get you detected.
Failing at the hacking mini-game for data delivery missions will cause your hacking attempt to be detected, and creates a chance for some of the data to be corrupt, so you won't be able to cash in one or more of them.

Being detected hacking data delivery missions won't result in an inability to sell/deliver the data as it would with exploration data, as it's not offered the same protections that UC provides.

One aspect of the hacking process/mini-game should be that you're downloading the data over time, so the longer you're able to keep it up, the more exploration data or delivery missions you're able to download, and you can stop at any time to walk away with what you have so far. The hacking process could possibly increase in difficulty as you continue to download, so a choice must be made to measure your skills against your chances. The idea here being that it's you against the target ship's dynamic AI data protection, and you work to get around it without triggering it.

Downloading data for delivery missions removes them from the target ship, but not so with exploration data, as it's black-boxed, whereas data for delivery missions is just kept encrypted on the system drive.

If you've downloaded exploration data, then you need to get to a station to sell it before the explorer does. If you don't make the sale first, either you simply can't sell the data, or possibly you get caught red-handed if you try, and you get issued a fine.
Explorers can still sell their own data even if a hacker sells it somewhere first, and they don't lose their First discovered/mapped/etc tags.

Importantly, the target of the hack is not notified of a scan or hacking attempt unless that attempt fails.
If the target of the hack has the "Report Crimes Against Me" option enabled, then the hacker is issued a fine if they fail in their attempt.

I would prefer the data link scanner as well. the problem with an undetected scan is the difficulty in achieving one. There are only really three scenarios i can think off where you can perform an undetected scan (forgetting that scans are always announced). a nav beacon, docked at a station and a resource extraction site. i've never had much use for a nav beacon when i'm exploring, when i return from the black i usually have a one track mind to get to a station.

at a station, well once an explorer docks they will be rid of their data within a few seconds and i doubt you would find an explorer in a resource extraction site. all other instances of player interaction would require an interdiction or dropping in on a low wake which does no favors for sneaking up on someone.

i do like the idea of the having crimes on playing a role though and the idea of explorers still being able to sell their data for credit of first discovery/scanned.

EVE online has a pretty interesting mini game when hacking things that isn't too mind numbing.

 

[Para Handy]

,,,,,,,,,,,,.

EVE online has a pretty interesting mini game when hacking things that isn't too mind numbing.

... and the other shoe dropped. [down]

 

[Para Handy]

In case that wasn't clear enough - I don't like the proposal since PKers would swarm all over it.

Pirates are scum and should be exterminated, not given interesting things to do.

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

I would prefer the data link scanner as well. the problem with an undetected scan is the difficulty in achieving one. There are only really three scenarios i can think off where you can perform an undetected scan (forgetting that scans are always announced). a nav beacon, docked at a station and a resource extraction site. i've never had much use for a nav beacon when i'm exploring, when i return from the black i usually have a one track mind to get to a station.

at a station, well once an explorer docks they will be rid of their data within a few seconds and i doubt you would find an explorer in a resource extraction site. all other instances of player interaction would require an interdiction or dropping in on a low wake which does no favors for sneaking up on someone.

i do like the idea of the having crimes on playing a role though and the idea of explorers still being able to sell their data for credit of first discovery/scanned.

EVE online has a pretty interesting mini game when hacking things that isn't too mind numbing.

Good point. I think then this would have to be initiated similar to an interdiction, but with the hacking interface popping up instead, and without the target being notified. Possibly, it could require the use of a specialised utility module instead of the data link scanner.
As a further consequence of being detected, you should get dropped out of supercruise so you can't simply just immediately make another attempt.