Obsidian Ant on Pilots Federation idea

Ironically enough, I've already suggested the "community service" things as well... and I doubt I'm the first.

:D

I believe you, no doubt there. I too have seen my ideas (if I was the first at all) surface in others' threads and posts again and again but I find it best to just support them. Looks way better if a lot of people support an idea again and again than if people start fighting.

It is completely possible that
A) OA never read such a proposition and thought of it independently,
B) his mind recycled the idea and he's not even aware of it,
C) he knew he saw it before, couldn't find the suggestion and found it irrelevant who started it, as long as the idea goes out in the loudest form possible.

Other, less nice optiona are there, too, but frankly I thank him for making a vid FD will definitely see. Oh, I also thank you for probably incepting the idea into his mind.
 
There are two pieces early on in the video that are stated as assumptions but to me were actually quite surprising:

- the Pilots Federations issues bounties (I thought they only issued bounties in places where they are the jurisdiction, i.e. Shinrarta)
- the Pilots Federation is a safety net for citizens (really?)

That makes it a bit hard for me to see this as not designed to strongly punish behavior you don't like, and seems a bit divorced from the rest of the galaxy's politics.

It makes sense for me to get a bounty for conducting less than legal operations in a Federation or Independent system and have consequences to that related to the jurisdiction. I totally understand that services should be disabled for me in stations where they hate me and have put a bounty on my head. And if that is all-Federation after some time, I totally understand that and would make the game better. Indies, being unaffiliated would and should be just for that system and any others that indy faction rules.

But it would make no sense for me to be thrown out of the Pilots Federation for such things. Unless you'd give me the option to properly join the Alliance, for instance, to restore access to services at least in Alliance stations.

I think we can have criminal game play without going as far as throwing CMDRs out of the PF. This seems to throw a bone at the end to criminals, but primarily aimed at eliminating certain "undesired" valid gameplay from the game. Why don't we instead just flush out better how jurisdictions work?
 
I'd suggest it's a given?

But you'll need to clarify you're thinkning/point here. So you don't agree, there's some destruction going on in the game simply because CMDR X enjoys destroying other CMDRs? And they'll do this even if there's no game reason, purpose or outcome driving them to do so?

ps: I don't count "role play" as an in game reason.

Their out of game motive for attacking other players is absolutely moot. We're all playing to have fun. How we have fun is up to the individual.

I guess I'm supposed to consider my motivations for mining? If I'm just doing it for the sake of doing it, because I find it fun, then my motivation for mining isn't adequate?

Entertainment isn't a suitable reason to play the game anymore? We should all find vested interests in the actual game world and devote ourselves completely to them, expunging any personal motivations we have as a person because fun isn't a "good reason"?

ED isn't to be approached as a game anymore. We should all consider it a second career and take it just as seriously.

It's ironic, given that you say role play isn't a suitable in-game reason, yet following your logic roleplay should be strictly enforced and the only motivator for playing.

Games aren't supposed to be fun unless you like NeilF's version of fun?


I swear.... Every defense of these authoritarian suggestions eventually boils down to "But people should play the game my way because that's what's best for my experience."
 
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If there were pirate stations, with illegal mods, gear and weapons, then I think a lot of people would turn to the darkside to acquire them. Not sure if the exclusive ganker club would like that though?

Initially I guess all the gankers prey would dry up due to everyone grinding their way to the rank of 'Pirate Lord' :D I'd probably be one of them! Ha Harrr!

Well, and all backed up by some pirate reputation with missions etc.

We could also envisage some of these missions even crossing into OPEN only CGs, or for where the BGS orchestrates specific OPEN hotspots etc for PvP.
 
Their out of game motive for attacking other players is absolutely moot. We're all playing to have fun. How we have fun is up to the individual.
Well this is where we have to differ in opinions then, sort of. Because one person's fun may not be another, especially when it can result in signifant hassle/grief (eg: hours and hours of lost time/effort).

So, if we take people's fun as a "reason". Can you understand that maybe an explorer doesn't like being destroyed simply for fun? Especially when it may cost them significant time and effort? And even more so when the game could be viewed as rather unbalanced?

ie: They have a ship designed for exploration, and are then faced randomly at times being attacked. And potentially not just by one, but possibly organised wings of other CMDRs, in ships far more powerful than theirs. The explorer doesn't want to PvP, but are being force to. They don't want to fight, because they're not equipped to, but are being force to. And the outcome, at best they get away, but at worst a rebuy screen and quite possibly countless hours of aggravation to return to where they were. All for someone else's fun?

Now let's look at the attacker. They're most likely in quite a power PvP ship of some sort. What is the possible downside and risk of this activity for them? Almost certainly they can escape any interdiction and combat they are not interested in participating in. They face no negative outcome at all in 99.9+% of the galaxy for their "fun at someone elses expense"...

So can you understand how for some, the current balance seems rather skewed and unfair? ie: A CMDR can dedicate themselves to destroying as many weak or exploration ships as they like, over and over. And in truth it's at extremely limited risk - because they govern their exposure to risk. And they certainly don't expose themselves to negative outcomes/risk due to any C&P mechanics being applied, because these are ignore in 99.9+% of the galaxy.

Can you see how this might appear rather one sided unbalanced fun, to some people?


Games aren't supposed to be fun unless you like NeilF's version of fun?

I swear.... Every defense of these authoritarian suggestions eventually boils down to "But people should play the game my way because that's what's best for my experience."
You realise everytime you come up with a counter point or view to one of mine, that's absolutely fair and fine. But do you also realise in doing so, technically that means - seemingly according to your thinking - I can declare, "Games aren't supposed to be fun unless you like Windscren Smudge's version of fun?"

Now I wouldn't suggest that sort of thinking, so why do you? Surely you can realise even though people might not agree on matter, they don't need to resort to personally loaded comments? Because you keep doing it, and I don't understand why... Could I ask you try maybe not to?
 
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Well, and all backed up by some pirate reputation with missions etc.

We could also envisage some of these missions even crossing into OPEN only CGs, or for where the BGS orchestrates specific OPEN hotspots etc for PvP.

Perhas 1 or 2 of top 50 PvP would care at all about any of this at all. Possibly 0.

Pirate rep, leaderboards, BGS - this all sounds like work.

The dunk on each other and try out weird builds and talk smack and there is a loosely organized pecking order with medals of distinction (ryan for backing up his great guides with flight skill, league winners for literally winning, harry for imfamy and salt, etc). Who needs missions and leaderboards when you have youtube videos and a discord? They also happen to be relatively welcome and friendly to the 51-1000 range PvP'ers like myself, as long as you're not totally noob and you're chill. What do these suggestions add to this mini community?

Imagine the reception youd recieve if you took the 50 most effective commanders at BGS-solo-only manipulation, sat them down and said, "now you have to do PvP too, and also he odds ain't gonna be good" How do you think that would go over? You can't even get PP to agree to play in open.
 
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Well this is where we have to differ in opinions then, sort of. Because one person's fun may not be another, especially when it can result in signifant hassle/grief (eg: hours and hours of lost time/effort).

So, if we take people's fun as a "reason". Can you understand that maybe an explorer doesn't like being destroyed simply for fun? Especially when it may cost them significant time and effort? And even more so when the game could be viewed as rather unbalanced?

ie: They have a ship designed for exploration, and are then faced randomly at times being attacked. And potentially not just by one, but possibly organised wings of other CMDRs, in ships far more powerful than theirs. The explorer doesn't want to PvP, but are being force to. They don't want to fight, because they're not equipped to, but are being force to. And the outcome, at best they get away, but at worst a rebuy screen and quite possibly countless hours of aggravation to return to where they were. All for someone else's fun?

Now let's look at the attacker. They're most likely in quite a power PvP ship of some sort. What is the possible downside and risk of this activity for them? Almost certainly they can escape any interdiction and combat they are not interested in participating in. They face no negative outcome at all in 99.9+% of the galaxy for their "fun at someone elses expense"...

So can you understand how for some, the current balance seems rather skewed and unfair? ie: A CMDR can dedicate themselves to destroying as many weak or exploration ships as they like, over and over. And in truth it's at extremely limited risk - because they govern their exposure to risk. And they certainly don't expose themselves to negative outcomes/risk due to any C&P mechanics being applied, because these are ignore in 99.9+% of the galaxy.

Can you see how this might appear rather one sided unbalanced fun, to some people?


You realise everytime you come up with a counter point or view to one of mine, that's absolutely fair and fine. But do you also realise in doing so, technically that means - seemingly according to your thinking - I can declare, "Games aren't supposed to be fun unless you like Windscren Smudge's version of fun?"

Now I wouldn't suggest that sort of thinking, so why do you? Surely you can realise even though people might not agree on matter, they don't need to resort to personally loaded comments? Because you keep doing it, and I don't understand why... Could I ask you try maybe not to?

The only way you accommodate every person's definition of fun and offend no one, is by not making a game.

Period.

And segueing from that concept, we get back to the OP, which was a suggestion that we take someone else's suggestion on how to make the game more fun for a specific group of players, at the expense of others' experience, for the sake of favoritism.

My comments aren't personally loaded, that's your interpretation. There's a lot of interpretations, projections and speculations happening, and none of them are very good. Expect them to be ridiculed.
 
The only way you accommodate every person's definition of fun and offend no one, is by not making a game.

Period.
But no one is asking for that...? ie: Why resort to a strawman?

People are simply asking for a more leveled and balanced OPEN experience. ie: Where one CMDR's fun (& risk) isn't seemingly skewed significantly at the expence of anothers.

My comments aren't personally loaded, that's your interpretation. There's a lot of interpretations, projections and speculations happening, and none of them are very good. Expect them to be ridiculed.
Feel free to ridicule your own strawman if you feel the need... :)
 
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Just watched the O-ant vid.

Don't know if this has been pointed out already but there is a substantial number of players who post on this forum complaining that they got killed for a 300 credit bounty by system Auth.

Can you imagine the uproar if these same number of players were denied access to Galmap or every station?

Genuine question. In your heart of hearts do you think the player base this suggestion has developed from is emotionally mature enough to deal with that level of consequence?
 
Well this is where we have to differ in opinions then, sort of. Because one person's fun may not be another, especially when it can result in signifant hassle/grief (eg: hours and hours of lost time/effort).

So, if we take people's fun as a "reason". Can you understand that maybe an explorer doesn't like being destroyed simply for fun? Especially when it may cost them significant time and effort? And even more so when the game could be viewed as rather unbalanced?

ie: They have a ship designed for exploration, and are then faced randomly at times being attacked. And potentially not just by one, but possibly organised wings of other CMDRs, in ships far more powerful than theirs. The explorer doesn't want to PvP, but are being force to. They don't want to fight, because they're not equipped to, but are being force to. And the outcome, at best they get away, but at worst a rebuy screen and quite possibly countless hours of aggravation to return to where they were. All for someone else's fun?

Now let's look at the attacker. They're most likely in quite a power PvP ship of some sort. What is the possible downside and risk of this activity for them? Almost certainly they can escape any interdiction and combat they are not interested in participating in. They face no negative outcome at all in 99.9+% of the galaxy for their "fun at someone elses expense"...

So can you understand how for some, the current balance seems rather skewed and unfair? ie: A CMDR can dedicate themselves to destroying as many weak or exploration ships as they like, over and over. And in truth it's at extremely limited risk - because they govern their exposure to risk. And they certainly don't expose themselves to negative outcomes/risk due to any C&P mechanics being applied, because these are ignore in 99.9+% of the galaxy.

Can you see how this might appear rather one sided unbalanced fun, to some people?

Now at first I was going to gloss over this because there really wasn't anything relevant that I haven't heard a thousand times before, and which hasn't been proven moot a thousand times before, but I'm eating lunch and if I'm going to chew fat I might as well chew the whole wad of it.


Miner saw the ganker coming and escaped unscathed? What gave him the right to take away the ganker's fun like that?


The explorer who doesn't like getting destroyed has options if that's not his definition of fun:

1 - Don't get destroyed.

2 - PG or Solo.

3 - Reconsider the fact that logging in to open you've agreed to all of the risks of playing in open, and that if you aren't comfortable with those risks, if you don't find them fun, then you've probably made the wrong decision. At this moment you have the option of switching modes or you could reinterpret the situation and alter your perspective to accept those risks as part of the fun, and continue.

Fun in a multiplayer game always comes at someone else's expense. Unless everybody is logged in to some communal game of Simon Says or some other crazy cult crap that I don't want to consider because I'd like to sleep tonight.

Exploration player gets blown up? Pew'ers fun came at the Explorers expense.

PvP'er gets blown up? He loses fun, it may not be today but some day he's going to have to grind those credits back up.

Miner is mining? PvPer is losing out. Less players out looking for fights means he has less fun.

Explorer is out Exploring? Powerplay players are losing. Less people in the bubble to interact with, and when that player returns his data is going to effect the BGS in a likely detrimental way depending on where he sells it, according to the PowerPlayer.

CG Farmer is farming? Everyone not participating in the CG loses fun. Less players to interact with elsewhere.

This is not a Zero-Sum transaction. There is no scenario in which people playing the game benefit everyone else who is playing the game.

Why do you think people were screaming, literally wailing at the crap multiplayer features and QOL functions for years and years? Because not being able to interact with other players in the manner in which they desired was taking away from their fun. That is exactly why.

If you log into open, you are looking for that interaction with other people to be a integral part of your entertainment. Any activity that anyone takes which reduces your optimally desired form of interaction reduces your fun.

Quite simply, people who get blown up in their exploration ship and sadface about it only have themselves to thank for the experience. They willfully ignored the reality of the game and made direct, controllable decisions which led to their unpleasant experience.

All they had to do was not lie to themselves before deciding which mode to play in.

But no one is asking for that...? ie: Why resort to a strawman?

People are simply asking for a more leveled and balanced OPEN experience. ie: Where one CMDR's fun (& risk) isn't seemingly skewed significantly at the expence of anothers.

Feel free to ridicule your own strawman if you feel the need... :)

If you don't want the experience skewed, stop tipping the table in favor of the person sitting on the other side by dreaming of unicorns when you log in, when you fit your ship, and when you willfully ignore your radar of potential hostiles.

I mean really, you're ruining the experience for gankers too. You don't even put up a fight most of the time and that's what they're looking for. Their only solace is when you start with the boo-hooing over the private messages, then they have no choice but to laugh at your expense because it's the only reward they're getting out of your poor performance.

[down][down][down]

Shame on you. Why don't you ever consider your impact on their experience?
 
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addressing parts of the topic so far in a general post

-Financials
I could see the crime side being more profitable that the 'pilots fed' side… why? Government :p

Wanna live in anarchy, suffer lawlessness, maybe poor trader routs and high prices at station, all due to the lack of control (even repairs and fuel could be more costly)… Out brakes, famines, war… what a mess, what a H3ll hole. But for the right type of pilot, willing to take advantage of the situation…. Gonna be rich.

For example, in pirate space, traders may have nothing to pirate, but if you go to fluffy space, pirate some goods and take it back to a pirate station, 10-20 time the value for your efforts… and not via a black market, just a market that is open to the alternative players.

-engineering and ships.
Sure, restrict access to all engineers that have pilot’s federation links, when you switch masters (Notoriety 11? Details, details)… maybe keep it open if you have remote workshops (personally, I don’t mind if that goes as well). People can unlock all the engineering stuff, get their ships and modules, then change sides.. End game stuff.. Game choices really having agency on your game (Ground breaking stuff for Elite)

Then, you start unlocking the ‘pirate’ side ships and modules. This is where there will be some upset.. as people that don’t wanna try out, or have no interest in being a full outlaw, well they won’t get these items.. TUFF! Get so fed-up with the game bending to; everyone should be able to have anything, no matter how they play the game :(

It’s just game progression and not one all would like… you could be a goody, unlock all, be a baddy, unlock all, and then reform your actions… unlocking all the cool stuff and go back to playing by the pilot federations rules set (just with an extended back story)

-Player level
Maybe make this choice the harder choice. After all, your facing the same sort of scum that your are :p … Fills space with engineered Npc ship what would be the equivalent(but a lot harder) of high security in ‘pilot federation’ space (something like ‘none’,’Harmelss’,’Risky’,’Deadly’), but these ship are out for anyone that is not allied with the controlling faction… KOS NPCs… Reward for facing one down? Materials of many rarities 

This could be what elite really needs, for the players that like progression and challenge (don’t say thargoids,lol). Hehe, as for any sort of power play. Even in solo, you’re not goanna be flying a paper ship in that space :p

access to gall-net news (the most important thing in game) and maps

- Well the dark-side has its hackers :)


Also: don’t know if this will have any impact on ganking, I don’t care… I just want some new and interesting game play.. its not about them!

---------------------

Honestly, I find this rather frustrating.

Many, many, people have suggested this sort of stuff for years, and I don't recall seeing Ant' voicing an opinion in any of those discussions, I'm afraid.

And now he posts up a video where he suggests exactly the same things that a heap of us have been suggesting and it's all clapping and cheering?
Don’t be worried about who said what and when.. Mr ant is a voice that people can get behind. Let’s not argue over who thought of what
 
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Some interesting history reading here regarding the organisation of pirates in the 18th century.
Some of these ideas being adopted into ED could be interesting.

Brotherhood on the seas
The dream of Libertalia
pirate republic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governance_in_18th-century_piracy

trying to make me read? Present it in cartoon form and i may listen :p (i kid, probably will look ty)


([S]Disclaimer, this is not a racist joke, but a joke about a wheel[/S])<joke removed (by me), just not worth the risk
 
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Now at first I was going to gloss over this because there really wasn't anything relevant that I haven't heard a thousand times before, and which hasn't been proven moot a thousand times before, but I'm eating lunch and if I'm going to chew fat I might as well chew the whole wad of it.


Miner saw the ganker coming and escaped unscathed? What gave him the right to take away the ganker's fun like that?


The explorer who doesn't like getting destroyed has options if that's not his definition of fun:

1 - Don't get destroyed.

2 - PG or Solo.

3 - Reconsider the fact that logging in to open you've agreed to all of the risks of playing in open, and that if you aren't comfortable with those risks, if you don't find them fun, then you've probably made the wrong decision. At this moment you have the option of switching modes or you could reinterpret the situation and alter your perspective to accept those risks as part of the fun, and continue.[/quote>
RE 2 - Absolutely agreed. By going into those modes you are (hopefully - no guaranteed ;)) to not be exposed to PvP you don't want to be.


Now as regards 1 & 3, I'll combine those, and if I can, use your phrase as a talking point, "by logging in to open you've agreed to all of the risks of playing in open".

That is absolutely the case. I totally agree. But the point being raised is, have FD, been absolute game design masters, and from the outset basically got this "agreement" as fair, balanced and "productive" as it might be? Could it be that at the moment for example, it's not as fair, balanced and "productive" as it might be?

Because I'd suggest that some folks might see the following two experience (in OPEN) as rather unbalanced? And if we use say DW2 and the ganking (I'll use the term because you did) going on there as a backdrop?

Ganker - They're invariably in strong combat ships. They generally pick and choose what risk to put themselves in. Even if interdicted, they'll typically be able to easily survive and run. In 99.0+% of the galaxy not a single negative C&P related outcome will befall them.

Explorer - PvP attacks will be sprung on them, even if they are not interested in PvP. PvP attacks will be sprung on them, even if they are not outfitted for PvP. They might be able to escape from interdictions, but undoubtably they can be caught at locations in regular flight (eg: meeting points or exploration locations), and the first they will know about it is most likely being hit by weapons. They face being attacked by a Wing of CMDRs simultaneously. They face at best escaping destruction, at worse a rebuy but with the added grief of countless hours of probably flying back to where they were. They face all this knowing no C&P of any sort is leveled at the gankers in the locations in question (99.9+% of the galaxy) - They won't even get something as simple (logical?) as a warning there is CMDRs in their instance that over the past couple of days has destroyed dozens of other CMDRs.

Now to me at least, the fun seems stacked rather in favour of the gankers. And strangely the risk also seems heavily stacked in favour of those same gankers.

Am I being unfair in suggesting this "risk" and experience seems rather skewed, unbalanced and unfair? Might this be because FD four years ago simply didn't get it spot on? Might it be that this balance could be adjusted so at least "Elite: Dangerous" is a touch more "dangerous" for these gankers? Might such an adjustment make OPEN more appealing to more CMDRs more often?


Again I completely agree than by going into OPEN you sign up for anything/everything that can happen in OPEN. My suggestion would be, that FD didn't get the balance right in OPEN four+ years ago, and haven't really address that since. And maybe OPEN could be balanced to make it a bit of a fairer experience all round...


EDIT: And BTW, if you feel FD have basically got the balance of OPEN right, and the above scenarios are "working as intended" and "working to best effect", then that's fair enough. There seems to be some unnecessarily heated comments going on so I'm keen to ensure they're defused. If you don't agree I fully understand etc.
 
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Just watched the O-ant vid.

Don't know if this has been pointed out already but there is a substantial number of players who post on this forum complaining that they got killed for a 300 credit bounty by system Auth.

Can you imagine the uproar if these same number of players were denied access to Galmap or every station?

Genuine question. In your heart of hearts do you think the player base this suggestion has developed from is emotionally mature enough to deal with that level of consequence?

And why do you think such expulsion would happen because of a 300 credit bounty?

This isn't a zero-sum binary situation. "Cross the line and you're out forever!" You'd be warned, probably several times, that you are in danger of losing your PF privilages if you continue such actions, and only after ignoring those and continuing to build up your notoriety would action be taken.
 
Agreed... Seems bizarre the PF would ignore CMDR X who has gone out of his way to destroy CMDR A, B, C, D and E for no reason. And then do nothing to protect or even inform CMDRs F, G, H and I about CMDR X, who's right there with them (& just about to attempt to destroy them too).

And let's not even talk about the Insurance Companies view on this :) Seemingly they're happy for CMDR X to quite literally burn their money without even raising an eyebrow!

They're going to have to answer to the Coca Cola Company....

[video=youtube;DUAK7t3Lf8s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUAK7t3Lf8s&feature=related[/video]
 
addressing parts of the topic so far in a general post


-Financials
I could see the crime side being more profitable that the 'pilots fed' side… why? Government


The way I see it, it would be an interesting balancing act of profits. The potential for greater profits is there, but let's face it, most criminals are poor. Only the big dogs make the big bucks.


I would think that, imagining you had a bot running a ship in the BGS for trade (in other words, doing normal trading stuff) under the criminal side of things, they would be making less of a profit. Criminals screwing criminals over prices and all that.

BUT, the opportunity for big scores by having the right cargo in the right area at the right time would also exist, beyond that those within the PF enjoy.

I think that kind of balance would better reflect a pirate's life and, in all honesty, wouldn't shake up how most players play anyway. Most of us are looking for that big score anyway. Who is going to sell biowaste or hydrogen fuel? Not even a starting player is going to do that unless it's specifically for a mission.
 
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