CMON then BOY!!!!

Since this is a warzone we're talking about your hardpoints should probably already be deployed in the first place. Your tactics may apply to a less hectic area but it's very easy to get jumped while in a dogfight with a couple of AI fighters since the situational awareness the radar gives you in a busy area doesn't mean a whole lot. Why should anyone have to go out of their way and dedicate a lot of SA on this that could be better spent on actually performing well in the fight going on around you just because you (you is a general term here, not you personally) think it's your god given right to loiter around a zone specifically meant for, you know, fighting?
 
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People need to stop calling everything they're not 100% comfortable with "griefing". I send out a warning first, asking people to pick a side or be treated as enemy when I see somebody loitering around at warzones, since there are some who likes to avoid picking a side just to be able to sneak up on you later while you're preoccupied. But one shouldn't be surprised if others aren't as accomodating. It is a warzone after all, you should expect to be fired upon.

^---Included to keep the context...

Talk about a knee jerk reaction. I never said I was space justice. This is a bloody warzone we're talking about, and I already mentioned there are those that likes to sneak up on people under the "neutral" flag. If you sent me a message stating you were filming a video I would probably leave you alone, but if you wander into a warzone without stating anything as such and loiter around for an extended amount of time then don't be surprised if you're fired upon. It's not like "Oh, I'm just here to film a cool youtube video" is the norm.

If you want to make a video you might want to get some people together and do this in a private group where you can actually get some coordination going. There's a reason these options exist.

What I said was far from being a knee-jerk reaction.

Yes it's a war zone in the game - with some defacto plot mechanics set up by the game such as;

1) There are two factions fighting - the Federation and the Eranin

2) You warp into the war zone area - at that point in time you have not yet selected a side.

3) This effectively makes you a neutral - neither Federation NPC's nor Eranin NPC's will target you as neither of which consider you a threat.

Okay I get your worry; you're concerned that a human player who hasn't declared a side yet will start attacking you - this has happened to players as reported above.

This is because some players have no sense of honour or trust. They have a selfish desire to go after other human players, and will ignore plot mechanics such as the three points I mention above - all they're looking for is pew-pew with human players in any way they can, and this includes ganking players who have not declared a side (i.e. neutrals). <---- This is the type of player I class as the lowest form of pond scum. They will use any form of excuse (e.g. It's a war zone dude! Anything goes!) as justification for ganking neutrals. This is a ridiculous argument given that the game plot mentioned above. It is an excuse and a bad one at that.

The NPC's in this scenario will not bother you unless you declare a side, so why should any human player.

You, Humbug, stated "there are those that likes to sneak up on people under the "neutral" flag." <--- see "pond scum" paragraph above - I agree with you, they're greedy parasites sucking the life out of a game. However! What you are doing, is this: you spot a human player who hasn't declared a side, then demand to know from them which side they're on, then you stated you will fire upon them if they don't respond. Which is why I asked who made you Space Justice.

Here's a radical idea - why not just be aware of the neutrals, and only take action against them if they start attacking you? No need to interrogate them in comms asking what they're up to, and you can see from your scanner if a neutral is getting close to you.

And finally, we're all yammering about the current game mechanics as they stand in this Beta 1 - perhaps it would be better to stop wasting our time yammering about it (myself included), until after the rest of the game mechanics are rolled out in Beta 2, Gamma - especially Gamma, as that's supposedly at the stage when everything has been rolled out into the game prior to the full release. Because until then, all this is just noise until we players can see the results of the intended handling of pond scum players.

Regards
 
If I had some reason to be in a combat zone [edit] without choosing a side [/edit], like filming a cool YT video, I'd be furiously messaging ALL other players on the radar, probably with a macro.

I AM NOT A COMBATANT - FILMING FOR ELITE YOUTUBE VIDEO - PLEASE DO NOT TARGET ME - I AM NOT HOSTILE! THANK YOU!

And I'd be absolutely sure to have hardpoints stowed. :)

Lots of war photographers/cameramen have been shot up in earlier conflicts, so a film-ship as it were is no guarantee of safety.
To be honest the safest course of action is to probably pick a side, deploy hard-points and get on with filming, then if anyone has a go at least you're ready for them.
 
Lots of war photographers/cameramen have been shot up in earlier conflicts, so a film-ship as it were is no guarantee of safety.
To be honest the safest course of action is to probably pick a side, deploy hard-points and get on with filming, then if anyone has a go at least you're ready for them.

What people are forgetting though is that the game itself defines the plot mechanics in the Fed/Eranin situation. I outlined this in my post before this reply. tl;dr: NPC's do not target neutrals in that warzone - so why should humans?
 
^---Included to keep the context...



What I said was far from being a knee-jerk reaction.

Yes it's a war zone in the game - with some defacto plot mechanics set up by the game such as;

1) There are two factions fighting - the Federation and the Eranin

2) You warp into the war zone area - at that point in time you have not yet selected a side.

3) This effectively makes you a neutral - neither Federation NPC's nor Eranin NPC's will target you as neither of which consider you a threat.

Okay I get your worry; you're concerned that a human player who hasn't declared a side yet will start attacking you - this has happened to players as reported above.

This is because some players have no sense of honour or trust. They have a selfish desire to go after other human players, and will ignore plot mechanics such as the three points I mention above - all they're looking for is pew-pew with human players in any way they can, and this includes ganking players who have not declared a side (i.e. neutrals). <---- This is the type of player I class as the lowest form of pond scum. They will use any form of excuse (e.g. It's a war zone dude! Anything goes!) as justification for ganking neutrals. This is a ridiculous argument given that the game plot mentioned above. It is an excuse and a bad one at that.

The NPC's in this scenario will not bother you unless you declare a side, so why should any human player.

You, Humbug, stated "there are those that likes to sneak up on people under the "neutral" flag." <--- see "pond scum" paragraph above - I agree with you, they're greedy parasites sucking the life out of a game. However! What you are doing, is this: you spot a human player who hasn't declared a side, then demand to know from them which side they're on, then you stated you will fire upon them if they don't respond. Which is why I asked who made you Space Justice.

Here's a radical idea - why not just be aware of the neutrals, and only take action against them if they start attacking you? No need to interrogate them in comms asking what they're up to, and you can see from your scanner if a neutral is getting close to you.

First off, in war there is no justice. If I went around stations in lawful areas demanding random people docking to state their intentions or be fired upon then I could see your point. But as it is, your point holds very little ground here. Yes the AI will not fire on you while you're neutral, but if they wanted neutrals to feel perfectly safe in this area then they would assign bounties on players that fired on a neutral player. War isn't safe and war isn't fair and neither should it be if we want to keep any semblance of reality. And as far as your radical idea goes I already answered this in the post above yours but I'll repeat it again here for your convenience. Dedicating a lot of situational awareness to somebody that just flies around and can pounce on you whenever they feel like doing so isn't something I should have to do in an area dedicated to fighting. Everybody gets more or less target blind when going in for the kill and it's very easy to get jumped while this is going on.

There's three (soon to be four) different modes for people with different tastes. I don't judge anyone for not wanting to face the risk of being fired upon with or without warning at any given moment, but if they come to the only mode where this actually CAN happen and then complain about it, then I will not feel sorry for them. Feel free to demonize me for this opinion. Call me pond scum or whatever you like, but this is my opinion and I'll stand by it.
 
First off, in war there is no justice. If I went around stations in lawful areas demanding random people docking to state their intentions or be fired upon then I could see your point. But as it is, your point holds very little ground here. Yes the AI will not fire on you while you're neutral, but if they wanted neutrals to feel perfectly safe in this area then they would assign bounties on players that fired on a neutral player. War isn't safe and war isn't fair and neither should it be if we want to keep any semblance of reality. And as far as your radical idea goes I already answered this in the post above yours but I'll repeat it again here for your convenience. Dedicating a lot of situational awareness to somebody that just flies around and can pounce on you whenever they feel like doing so isn't something I should have to do in an area dedicated to fighting. Everybody gets more or less target blind when going in for the kill and it's very easy to get jumped while this is going on.

There's three (soon to be four) different modes for people with different tastes. I don't judge anyone for not wanting to face the risk of being fired upon with or without warning at any given moment, but if they come to the only mode where this actually CAN happen and then complain about it, then I will not feel sorry for them. Feel free to demonize me for this opinion. Call me pond scum or whatever you like, but this is my opinion and I'll stand by it.

I was not calling you pond scum. Read what I said again.

I was also talking specifically about the scenario within the game - not what happens in real life.
 
I was not calling you pond scum. Read what I said again.

I was also talking specifically about the scenario within the game - not what happens in real life.

I know you weren't. I was speaking preemptively. This is also a simulation, so I think we all agree it should at least keep some semblance of reality. War is pretty much a constant thing, no matter if it's on solid ground or in space. The setting in Elite is also a very grim one, where even police will murder you for seemingly petty crimes like loitering in a space station, so again, why should you feel safe in a warzone? You also didn't answer any of my other points like why I should have to dedicate a whole lot of situational awareness in order to prevent joyriders from pouncing me in said warzones, or why there is no bounty for attacking said joyriders. Or why said joyriders just don't use any of the other modes of which there are many, where getting attacked by players will never happen.
 
In the spirit of fight fire with fire, it seems.

Regardless of whether you think it's ok to kill someone that is neutral in a warzone or not, killing someone once is not griefing.

Placing bounties on someone again and again with the purpose of making them "lose his will to live" is definitely griefing.

Edit:

Does the game put a criminal bounty on you if you take out a "neutral" in a warzone?

Yes, you get a bounty for attacking them and one for killing them. They would also get bounties for attacking and killing people if they do not pick a side.
 
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You can report a player too, if you are able to provide date time of you being griefed I imagine FD would be able to verify the login activity easily enough, and thus be able to verify the activity!!

is there no chance they were using heat mechanics to escape, I have done that to great effect when I felt I was going to get a hiding!!

Situations like this are why the "no name and shame" forum rule frustrates me. There is someone clearly out to grief, and being cowardly about it at that. Such a person is the ideal candidate for the blocklist, IMO.
 
I know you weren't. I was speaking preemptively. This is also a simulation, so I think we all agree it should at least keep some semblance of reality. War is pretty much a constant thing, no matter if it's on solid ground or in space. The setting in Elite is also a very grim one, where even police will murder you for seemingly petty crimes like loitering in a space station, so again, why should you feel safe in a warzone? You also didn't answer any of my other points like why I should have to dedicate a whole lot of situational awareness in order to prevent joyriders from pouncing me in said warzones, or why there is no bounty for attacking said joyriders. Or why said joyriders just don't use any of the other modes of which there are many, where getting attacked by players will never happen.

It's a psuedo-simulation - there are a lot of things in the game which are artificial - handwavium flight model for example, in the name of "WWII plane-style dogfights". Sure the galaxy is simulated, but a lot of the game is not a simulation as such.

And like I said, I see no more point in yammering about this subject until the rest of the game mechanics are rolled out in subsequent versions, because arguing about player behaviour as it stands in this very cut down pre-release version of ED is pointless, so I'll waste no more of my time on this subject.
 
is there no chance they were using heat mechanics to escape, I have done that to great effect when I felt I was going to get a hiding!!

As of yesterday, strange things happened.
1) When in a (PvP) fight with another Anaconda, a Viper joined in and i had to SC out. I was a bit unhappy with that so i got back to take him out. Found him, shot a few rounds, he vanished only to reappear a few seconds later. Next try the same...and next, and next....
He later told me he did message me before joining our Anaconda fight. I checked my video and i never got a message. Ha also told me he saw me disappearing too when i came back.

2) Few minutes later i start taking hits on my shields. Noone around. No way someone could take out my 4 pips shields in the time it took without getting visible. Although wildly turning i never saw a beam or projectile...had to SC out.

Yesterday there were massive problems. Many things were not what they looked like.
I assumed being set up when the Viper showed up. I assumed he was doing CAD out constantly when i attacked him later. When i was attacked by that ghostship i slowly got the feeling that everything is just messed up.
 
It's a psuedo-simulation - there are a lot of things in the game which are artificial - handwavium flight model for example, in the name of "WWII plane-style dogfights". Sure the galaxy is simulated, but a lot of the game is not a simulation as such.

And like I said, I see no more point in yammering about this subject until the rest of the game mechanics are rolled out in subsequent versions, because arguing about player behaviour as it stands in this very cut down pre-release version of ED is pointless, so I'll waste no more of my time on this subject.

How very convenient. Just remember this: I will not judge anyone based on their preferred playstyles. If they want to be able to feel relaxed while playing then that's fine, I totally understand. What I will not do however is feel sorry for someone that knowingly went into the cave of a bear and then complains about getting mauled by the pond scum of a bear. Why can you not simply accept the fact that while some enjoy a relaxing time, others enjoy the thrill of player vs player combat. That's the specific reason why FD have included options for all. There is absolutely no need putting labels like "carebear" or "pond scum" on people that simply enjoy different things.
 
Imo, best solution would be, to disable your weapons-damage (ie. hits don't register) if you're either want to fire at a neutral player, or are a neutral player yourself.
Regardless of whether a target is locked or not.

Or - maybe less restrictive - a neutral player with retracted weapons is invunerable, but can become anyone's target once he deploys weapons.

+1 agreed
 
How very convenient. Just remember this: I will not judge anyone based on their preferred playstyles. If they want to be able to feel relaxed while playing then that's fine, I totally understand. What I will not do however is feel sorry for someone that knowingly went into the cave of a bear and then complains about getting mauled by the pond scum of a bear. Why can you not simply accept the fact that while some enjoy a relaxing time, others enjoy the thrill of player vs player combat. That's the specific reason why FD have included options for all. There is absolutely no need putting labels like "carebear" or "pond scum" on people that simply enjoy different things.

Could not care less if you think I'm being convenient. Let's come back to this in a few months time. By then - hopefully - the game and player mechanics will all be sorted out and we actually have something to witter on about. It's utterly pointless until then.
 
So a neutral player ganked in a combat zone is by definition a sore loser? Was there a contest that he lost? The contest of stalking a combat zone for neutral players and competetively killing them from ambush?
This is neither "ganking", which stands for "gang killing", as he was attacked by a single ship, nor is it "PKing", because this is a combat zone and that's its purpose, if you wish to be neutral, stay out of it.

What I was saying is precisely that "gankers" and "PKers" aren't as bad as people who just like you exagerate things, acting like being shot in a video game that revolves quite a lot around combat is "spoiling somebody's day", and complain unnecessarily about things that didn't happen.
 
I only shoot
- red players.
- wanted players.
- opposite faction players.
- players who ask for my cargo.
- players who try to scoop my pray.
 
This is neither "ganking", which stands for "gang killing", as he was attacked by a single ship, nor is it "PKing", because this is a combat zone and that's its purpose, if you wish to be neutral, stay out of it.

What I was saying is precisely that "gankers" and "PKers" aren't as bad as people who just like you exagerate things, acting like being shot in a video game that revolves quite a lot around combat is "spoiling somebody's day", and complain unnecessarily about things that didn't happen.

That's exactly it. The words griefer, ganker etc gets thrown around so much that they lose all meaning. There are some truly bad eggs out there, sure. But they are nowhere near as numerous as some would imply.
 
Since this is a warzone we're talking about your hardpoints should probably already be deployed in the first place. Your tactics may apply to a less hectic area but it's very easy to get jumped while in a dogfight with a couple of AI fighters since the situational awareness the radar gives you in a busy area doesn't mean a whole lot. Why should anyone have to go out of their way and dedicate a lot of SA on this that could be better spent on actually performing well in the fight going on around you just because you (you is a general term here, not you personally) think it's your god given right to loiter around a zone specifically meant for, you know, fighting?

As it happens, yes. It is my right. A few km from the active fighting, keeping an eye on what is going on. Good practice for escort, recon and bounty hunter gigs. If somebody decides to try and ambush me when I'm doing it, have no bounty and have my hard point undeployed one has to assume that is just a PK attempt for the hell of it.

Pretty weird behaviour if you ask me. Luckily the Elite Federation auto-bounty will apply, as I'm not a combatant in the warzone.
 
Am I missing something here? I do not understand, what is the problem with getting attacked by another player?

Is that actually classed as griefing around here?
 
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