I've tried before, lol, I'm not a good pilot
It's time to revisit the PVP rebuy. Distant Ganks 2 makes the point.
- Thread starter Chaparral
- Start date
-
- Tags
- kingziggy pvc_community
Deleted member 115407
D
https://youtu.be/qqfDcrg3if0?t=218
Skip to 3:38
[video=youtube_share;qqfDcrg3if0]https://youtu.be/qqfDcrg3if0?t=218[/video]
Please take a look at my survival guide stickied on the guides forum. None of what you assume is true here is actually true. I'm fighting gankers in an explorer spec Krait, there is a video attached that shows how effective this can be.
Yes Ziljan, because you want to. Most are not interested in that kind of gameplay in this game. For them playing in a group is the ideal solution.
If what Ziljan thinks is likely to happen actually does happen, there's going to be a lot of sad little 'splorers really wishing they'd taken a peek at his manual/listened to his message instead of screwing their eyes shut, drumming their heels on the floor and screeching that he should quit telling them to git gud.
Watching the community's majority reaction to him is both sad and hillarious at the same time.
Watching the community's majority reaction to him is both sad and hillarious at the same time.
Is it more or less entertaining than seeing the community react to DG2 pretending they are helping the game?
Nowadays I'm primarily an explorer. I tend an NPC faction in the bubble (alone) and am happy enough for any company that comes my way but I've tried most things & those two activities are what's left. I play in Open, I try to be friendly & approachable but I am self-motivating, I don't need other players to enjoy the game the way I play it. But I play in Open, because there are players (like yourself) that feel the need for there to be willing victims - I am essentially your content.
But you never find me. You are so easy to avoid because I'm not a particularly sociable player. So I'm out exploring, in what you would probably describe as a paper thin ship (75ly Conda atm, exploring the fringe), and I'm playing in Open because I pretty well always play in Open. If you found me you could pop my ship & cost me my first discoveries, and you could mock me for building such a weak ship while I just easily eat the rebuy and carry on without a word of complaint.
But you don't find me, because the galaxy is truly ENORMOUS. You'd have more chance of winning the lottery than you would finding a specific player that wasn't on your friend list.
Now DW2 is a social event, it's a travelling party and the participants all want to hang out with each other. DG2 is providing some optional entertainment for anyone on DW2 that wants it, you are at their beck & call, you are hangers on, you are the riff raff that bouncers are there to keep out of the coolest nightclub in town. This is ideal content for a private group - you only interact with the other invited people, and any troublemakers are ejected from the private party if the organisers don't like the look of them.
There is no more significant risk to an explorer than there was before, just a lot of fluff that might as well be discussing what you'll spend the money on when you win the lottery.
Taking reasonable precautions is fine to recommend or advocate, but it's up to the player to mitigate their risks. In a game where a significant fraction of the gameplay is in figuring out how to play the game, just let them figure it out for themselves, very probably by simply staying in the private group the party is happening in.
Last edited:
Sorry, I meant to say with minimum engineering as in Farseer etc. I would say most explorers would go as far as Palin. But if players don't do combat stuff, they're not going to grind out many of the other engineers.
Phantom is a great choice, but does it meet the needs of various roles within Fleetcom?
We have mechanics, miners, etc, all requiring specific builds. In order for them to be effective and productive, is there much room left over for defensive mods/builds?
Just as an example, I brought my phantom back to the bubble and traded for an anaconda. I love the Phantom, very happy with it's speed and for me alone it is a good explorer.
As a deep space fleet support ship... It's not great. It's workable, but not the best.
Anaconda fitted for repairs, on a deep space trip, is excellent. Has everything and more. But defensive wise, it's non engineered. I can fill my spare utility slots with shield boosters, use the military slot. But none of them are engineered. Is that going to stop an alpha strike?
My boost is ok, but still, it's not as fast as a phantom. Am I going to be able to get away?
I know all the builds you are alluding to because I am flying a fully self sufficient conda that - assuming I don't burn out my powerplant or run out of fuel - can keep killing until I die of old age. This is exactly what I am flying: https://s.orbis.zone/23yb
If the PS4 DW2 fleet had any dedicated PvP defense vessels they would be vastly superior to mine in combat because they could specialize and I can not. I assumed once I incurred a bounty I might never have any support outside my own ship. Any of my bubble builds would stomp on this build in 1v1.
EDIT - and that said, DW2 defense vessels would still most likely never kill me because [defense/escape] is so much [more powerful/easier] than attack. They'd have to be an exceptionally good wing, or catch me in a screw-up, for me to die
If you post your build I can make specific suggestions, as long as you refrain from insinuating I need google for what I consider basic knowledge.
You keep using phrases like "alpha strike" and such. You're not wrong but all this tweaking and DPS crunching is besides the point for the majority of deaths due to DG2 IMO.
I didn't bother maximizing my alpha strike because it doesn't matter when I can announce in system chat I'm going to a POI, then show up, ram the CMDR there, and make a second pass before CMDR reacts.
It doesn't matter if I can direct message a docked ship 5km away that I'm going to kill it, and upon departure the CMDR flies directly at me instead of away from me. (Or better yet switch to solo).
The lion's share of vulnerability to DG2 has to do with piloting, not build. I realize it would be absurd to expect an explorer to invest as much time into pew pew pew as I have. However I'd ballpark the ratio to be about 20:1 (or higher), in terms of many hours one needs to learn how to fight versus to learn to survive/avoid fights.
It's also a perfectly logical choice to change that ratio to infinity by playing in solo. I personally would never trust a PG that was larger than my in-real-life friends but that is a different can of worms I avoid by just not joining any PGs. All y'all can hash that out without me.
Last edited:
Is it more or less entertaining than seeing the community react to DG2 pretending they are helping the game?
Nowadays I'm primarily an explorer. I tend an NPC faction in the bubble (alone) and am happy enough for any company that comes my way but I've tried most things & those two activities are what's left. I play in Open, I try to be friendly & approachable but I am self-motivating, I don't need other players to enjoy the game the way I play it. But I play in Open, because there are players (like yourself) that feel the need for there to be willing victims - I am essentially your content.
But you never find me. You are so easy to avoid because I'm not a particularly sociable player. So I'm out exploring, in what you would probably describe as a paper thin ship (75ly Conda atm, exploring the fringe), and I'm playing in Open because I pretty well always play in Open. If you found me you could pop my ship & cost me my first discoveries, and you could mock me for building such a weak ship while I just easily eat the rebuy and carry on without a word of complaint.
But you don't find me, because the galaxy is truly ENORMOUS. You'd have more chance of winning the lottery than you would finding a specific player that wasn't on your friend list.
Now DW2 is a social event, it's a travelling party and the participants all want to hang out with each other. DG2 is providing some optional entertainment for anyone on DW2 that wants it, you are at their beck & call, you are hangers on, you are the riff raff that bouncers are there to keep out of the coolest nightclub in town. This is ideal content for a private group - you only interact with the other invited people, and any troublemakers are ejected from the private party if the organisers don't like the look of them.
There is no more significant risk to an explorer than there was before, just a lot of fluff that might as well be discussing what you'll spend the money on when you win the lottery.
Taking reasonable precautions is fine to recommend or advocate, but it's up to the player to mitigate their risks. In a game where a significant fraction of the gameplay is in figuring out how to play the game, just let them figure it out for themselves, very probably by simply staying in the private group the party is happening in.
I almost hurt myself laughing when I got to the "you are the riff raff that bouncers are there to keep out of the coolest nightclub in town" part. Thanks for that
@Ziljan, see what we're up against?
Last edited:
What a carefully crafted load of twaddle. I almost hurt myself laughing when I got to the "you are the riff raff that bouncers are there to keep out of the coolest nightclub in town" part. Thanks for that
@Ziljan, see what we're up against?
No rebuttal, just 'twaddle'? Surely you can do better than this. Entertain me
So what we have here is a situation where a bunch of players are trying to take out as many other players as possible, seemingly in the name of encouraging all players to equip for a possibility that is only really a thing at all because of the players advocating it in the first place. Players that do not conform may well lose their ships, and even if they are not all that bothered about this it will be assumed that they are and they will therefore be mocked accordingly.
I suppose this is similar advice to 'always equip a scoop', 'remember KGB FOAM' or for a trader, 'never travel empty'. All worthy bits of advice.
But there is an overarching piece of advice that I think all players can take on-board:
Play your own way, let them play theirs.
In this thread it has been strongly stated several times that poor behaviour in-game does not translate to real-life poor behaviour, yet this mocking of those that do not conform does extend outside of the game, with terms like 'git gud' and other general condescension for not playing the game the same way, or with the same motivation.
If you want to hang out with other people there are risks inherent in that. Others may act in a way that is frustrating at any level, this is inevitable. If it is done on purpose (or they claim it was after the event to mask their ineptitude) complaining will only make the situation worse.
So if you complain about gankers, more will gank to gain attention.
If you complain about combat logging more will CLog because they know it will frustrate you.
Just let them play their own way, and if they ask for help by all means give it, there is absolutely no need to attempt to insist that anyone should change their playstyle to suit you, or to mock them if they choose not to.
This is what I abhor, the 'you're doing it wrong' attitude.
I suppose this is similar advice to 'always equip a scoop', 'remember KGB FOAM' or for a trader, 'never travel empty'. All worthy bits of advice.
But there is an overarching piece of advice that I think all players can take on-board:
Play your own way, let them play theirs.
In this thread it has been strongly stated several times that poor behaviour in-game does not translate to real-life poor behaviour, yet this mocking of those that do not conform does extend outside of the game, with terms like 'git gud' and other general condescension for not playing the game the same way, or with the same motivation.
If you want to hang out with other people there are risks inherent in that. Others may act in a way that is frustrating at any level, this is inevitable. If it is done on purpose (or they claim it was after the event to mask their ineptitude) complaining will only make the situation worse.
So if you complain about gankers, more will gank to gain attention.
If you complain about combat logging more will CLog because they know it will frustrate you.
Just let them play their own way, and if they ask for help by all means give it, there is absolutely no need to attempt to insist that anyone should change their playstyle to suit you, or to mock them if they choose not to.
This is what I abhor, the 'you're doing it wrong' attitude.
Yep, thats elite dangerous
The entire game should have been open only from the start.
Yep. And then it would only be played by those people who enjoy PvP and judging from the popularity of Mobius and the frequency with which PvPers have to join private groups to get their laughs ..... it would be a desert.
It would have been different, we don't know whether it would have been more popular. I think a lot of Eve players bought ED but don't play any more, possibly more would have bought an 'open only' version of the game.
Modes don't just add to the game, they detract from it for some too. Personally I'm happy to have the choice but my gameplay is not dependant on it.
I do wonder how popular the game would have been if it were solo online & the BGS was the only way to interact with other players, co-op and PvP. I'd play that game but I don't think I'd prefer it over what we have now.
Open players want a shooter. I could care less as open has nothing to offer the game except combat. Yes I do drop in now and then but only in a combat ship. I'm always left alone. Hmmmm The three modes allow everyone to play at their own speed. I've lost over 80 ships so p[lease give me the care bear retort.
This has never been my goal. I've expressed my reasons on this board in the past, and am usually met with personal attacks. So I stop explaining the subtleties and leave it at "I like to shoot things". I do not think better piloting/building is a likely result of DG2.
I started a thread about what I thought might actually encourage better play in open. It did not include blowing up explorers, it centered around early game training and accurately conveying risk/reward information to new players about various modes.
Zarek has been pretty explicit about his goals, and they certainly do not include improved build and piloting skills.
Ryan and others post helpful builds, but I don't think we say that's the point of DG2 - to encourage build and pilot skills. It seems pretty clear the goal is to kill as many explorers as possible. (I could be wrong on this, if so will be easy to find counter evidence of DG2'ers who've said otherwise).
Yes, my way of playing is shooting ships in open. Let me do this. I encourage all others to play their way. If it happens to intersect with my way, so be it.
I just consider a clog much the same as a kill. In any case it is inevitable it will happen sometimes, and I think it extremely rare that the motivation is to frustrate me. The motivation is usually simpler - frustration and not wanting a rebuy.
There are ramifications of clogging which I acknowledge (notably a focus on builds min/maxed for time-to-kill, and impossibility of an in game "ranking" or other sort of formal competitive landscape for PvP) but I don't complain about these ramifications.
If "let them play their own way" means "don't shoot ships in open" I disagree, because that is my way of playing. Otherwise I agree. I answer questions when asked, but almost always follow up with recommending solo/PG as an alternative. I also acknowledge that following my advice takes effort and is only applicable to folks whose chosen way of playing involves a moderate or higher risk of meeting someone like me in open. Other than that use case, my advice is best ignored.
If your definition of "let them play their own way" includes a cease-fire on ships in open, then that is much too broad and I see no real basis to comply. It is not letting me play my way, and significantly curtails the sorts of player interactions I get to have. How else could I have gotten to shoot some random Anaconda from an SRV? That is fun! Also while in bubble, my post-interdiction actions are more subtle than DG2, and often are resolved non-violently. I'm not going to limit what I can do in game because someone else doesn't like it.
As far as the PG hijinks, I want nothing to do with any of that.
Last edited:
It doesn't.
Last edited:
Ok, that's what I'm getting at. Our builds are pretty much the same, I have a 6A shield, instead of the bi weave, only grade 3 low power thingiebob with multiweave.
DD g5 6a thrusters with drag thingamajig.
None of my shield boosters or armour are engineered and I am not armed, I'm a pacifist, I won't be engaging.
All things being relatively equal, your engineering literally doubles your armour and shields, if not a little more than that.
It's not just a little different, a bit of an edge, or a 50% bonus. It's massive.
Pretty sure my shields and armour won't last against your guns, let alone a dedicated pvper.
In Eve Online, it doesn't take a great deal of effort to build a ship (And skills), combine with some basic flight tricks, and it is very rare to get caught in a gatecamp etc. If you are a pve player, a miner, an industrialist or a trader, you don't have to chase the PvP metagame or grind the PvP gravy train to just run away, hide and survive.
In ED... the balance is proper fried duck. I think that's why the separation between PvP and pve is getting wider, and both camps have had enough... But the Pve crowd are making their own space and doing their best to be inclusive for their gameplay.
Why can't pvpers do that? There's no challenge in chasing players who aren't playing PvP OR the PvP metagame.
Anything else is just turkey gravy.
It is ironic that I post my build and among the first things that you notice are how similar our builds are aside from how strong my defense is.
Your previous posts gave the impression we were all flying around dedicated murderboats with some outrageous attack advantage. Now you see, this is not the case. My shield resists don't let my ship kills yours any quicker, unless your piloting allows me to ram you.
To be specific, my engineering ~doubles my raw shield, and ~quintuples my thermal resists. The armor effect is less dramatic, ~20% raw and 50-80% resists. My DPS is boosted by much less than this. That is one of several reasons why it is easier to escape & live than to attack & and kill.
Choosing not to leverage engineering on shield boosters is choosing to forego what is arguably the most overpowered module in the game. That is your decision.
You are correct to not carry guns. My guns cost me ~5ly jump and I pay this price when I keep pace with DW2. I am performing about 10% more jumps because of this choice. You made a different time trade-off - you chose not to highly engineer for defense. A very rational decision if in solo, an irrational one if in open.
I have never played Eve Online so cannot comment on any of that. I don't do this for a challenge, although I will note that keeping the pace of DW2 with those heavy guns and without the ability to repair/refuel at bases means that I am arguably facing more of a challenge than the solo/pg explorers.
Ironically, I am likely to have my codex discoveries and mapping tags nabbed by someone else, as I can only turn in my exploration data infrequently. Another trade off I have made.
As far as "why can't pvpers do that" - well, sure we could. I choose not to. Every time I've tried to explain why I've just encountered personal attacks so I don't bother any more. It's not worth asking why, better to just accurately assess the situation and act accordingly.
EDIT - To be specific about one point you made - undersizing your thrusters to 6A instead of 7A is a build tradeoff I consider incredibly unwise if flying in open (although even some gankers have done this). This is much more important than engineering shield boosters IMO. The 40 ton difference between size 6 and 7 does incur a jump range penalty of about 1-1.5ly (~3-4%) but in a confrontation it means my Conda will probably be able to ram your Conda, and certainly keep it in optimal firing range. By performing ~3% more jumps, I have the ability to kill your ship because I can dictate the distance during the engagement and most likely ram you at will.
This can also apply to distro, although tradeoffs here are more subtle
Last edited:
Exactly like that, yes. It was done to make a point that you acknowledge.
Are you suggesting the description is not accurate?
Last edited: