It's time to revisit the PVP rebuy. Distant Ganks 2 makes the point.

True - some may indeed find the proposed changes unacceptable.

Some opinions won't be persuaded. The most important opinion belongs to Frontier as only they are in a position to change the game - players cannot *force* them to do anything. Having recently reaffirmed their stance on the game's design regarding the BGS and who it is for, I very much doubt that the discussion relating to the proposed changes will be anything more than a way to pass the time on the forums.

Ok, so we're back to the only objection being FDev's current stated intent, an argument that renders a good deal of the forum pointless, so please stop making it. We're here to discuss problems/solutions.

If you're unable, or simply unwilling, to find actual flaws with the proposals I've made I'll take it as read that you agree, however grudgingly, that they do what I've said they'll do.
 
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Ok, so we're back to the only objection being FDev's current stated intent, an argument that renders a good deal of the forum pointless, so please stop making it. We're here to discuss problems/solutions.

If you're unable, or simply unwilling, to find actual flaws with the proposals I've made I'll take it as read that you agree, however grudgingly, that they do what I've said they'll do.

It's more like that you are unable or unwilling to accept the flaws which have been pointed out.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Ok, so we're back to the only objection being FDev's curent stated intent, an argument that renders a good deal of the forum pointless, so please stop making it. We're here to discuss problems/solutions.

If you're unable, or simply unwilling, to find actual flaws with the proposals I've made I'll take it as read that you agree, however grudgingly, that they do what I've said they'll do.

Frontier's stated intent it entirely relevant - simply because that's what caused the game that everyone bought to be developed and released - and they remain the only entity that makes decisions as to the direction of the game's development. If they had no intent we would not be here discussing their game.

Discussing perceived problems, that are not considered to be problems at all by some players, is part and parcel of forums. Making proposals with the expectation of universal agreement is ultimately pointless. We're here to discuss the game - that's what a game's forums are for - and none of us have any direct sway over the game's development, nor can any player force another player to support their proposed changes for the game. We can identify and discuss "problems" and potential solutions to our heart's content though. We won't all agree though.

Then there's the fact that not all players frequent the forums.

I do not agree that the BGS needs to be split - as it would create divergent galaxies, create an issue regarding which galaxy was canon, introduce exploits if players could switch between the divergent galaxies and increase Frontier's running costs relating to running the galaxy in terms of servers and staff.

I do not agree that either Solo or Private Groups should be removed - as every player has bought a game with three optional game modes, where other players are an optional extra and where console players without premium access cannot play in either of the multi-player modes. Just as players are entitled to play among other players, they are also entitled to play without the possibility of encountering another player.
 
I would just prefer if there would be some meaning to destruction, the whole ganking for fun is kind of immersion breaking for me...

Ahh... you want the universe to make sense? ;)
Well, they got that Zarek fella telling them what to do now, apparently. Though he seems a lot like the Squire of Gothos to me.
I say call off your attack dogs Zarek, a powerful ruler is one that shows mercy. And tell us where Raxxla is. And move out of your aunt's basement.
 
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it would create divergent galaxies
This isn't an issue. It's the point of the split.

an issue regarding which galaxy was canon
Both would be Canon for its respective players

introduce exploits if players could switch between the divergent galaxies
Ameliorated with with Penalties and Time Limits. Yesterday I amended an earlier answer regarding premium console access; preventing mode switches completely would penalise those players in particular, as and when they get full access.
However, exploits exist. They exist today and they will exist tomorrow irrespective of anything else that changes.

and increase Frontier's running costs relating to running the galaxy in terms of servers and staff.
Negligibly, if at all.

The server infrastructure would remain exactly the same, catering to the same number of players as it is now sending and receiving the same amount of data. It would reduce the server costs of instancing by removing unnecessary Solo/PG/Open mode switches. It may have an additional cost of running a separate BGS, but from what I understand this in itself is a minor cost, certainly compared to player numbers and instancing.

I do not agree that either Solo or Private Groups should be removed - as every player has bought a game with three optional game modes
The proposal caters to all of these people. Having the Solo/PG/Open buttons removed doesn't affect their gameplay.

console players without premium access cannot play in either of the multi-player modes.

From my answer written and edited yesterday, on this point and referenced above...
Those players would default to the PvE mode. This will have no effect on their gameplay. As and when they get full access, they will then be able to explicitly choose either PvE or PvP.

Just as players are entitled to play among other players, they are also entitled to play without the possibility of encountering another player.

PvE mode will make encountering another player a non-event unless they specifically choose to engage in conversation.


If you think these answers are insufficient, on specific grounds....
 
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Ahh... you want the universe to make sense? ;)
Well, they got that Zarek fella telling them what to do now, apparently. Though he seems a lot like the Squire of Gothos to me.
I say call off your attack dogs Zarek, a powerful ruler is one that shows mercy. And tell us where Raxxla is. And move out of your aunt's basement.

I know that I am a silly person! ;)

I think Zarek is one of the better things that happened to the game regarding PvP and RP. What's missing though is a reflection of his efforts in game, the result is there (dead explorers) but the 'reason' only exists outside of the game. And while being funny, his reasons are usually even more silly than anything else. I'd like it to be the other way around, first there should be an ingame reason and then we can orchester (did I spell that right?) our RP around it. I know this is pretty vague and leaves lots of room for misinterpretation. As an example I posted a potential scenario earlier:

There could be a prototype ship missing and various groups / cooperations / factions send explorers out to find it. Or scientific observation suggests there is a hotspot with valuable resources in a specific region of the galaxy. Obviously there would be people who want to get there first or want to stop competition so there would actually be a reason for PvP. That's the kind of killing I would enjoy. By the way, this is the kind of exploration that happened in the real world (minus the killing). If you wanted to get funds for an expedition there usually where financial interests behind it.

This would be different from a total player controlled system like it's in Eve and requires a game master, Frontier is already doing that with CGs, the concept just needs to be expanded.
 
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Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
This isn't an issue. It's the point of the split.

Noted.

Both would be Canon for its respective players

That's a given - however my point related to which one would be Canon for Frontier - as they develop the evolving galaxy.

Ameliorated with with Penalties and Time Limits. Yesterday I amended an earlier answer regarding premium console access; preventing mode switches completely would penalise those players in particular, as and when they get full access.
However, exploits exist. They exist today and they will exist tomorrow irrespective of anything else that changes.

Noted.

Negligibly, if at all.

The server infrastructure would remain exactly the same, catering to the same number of players as it is now sending and receiving the same amount of data. It would reduce the server costs of instancing by removing unnecessary Solo/PG/Open mode switches. It may have an additional cost of running a separate BGS, but from what I understand this in itself is a minor cost, certainly compared to player numbers and instancing.

Speculation noted. Who would be expected to meet the additional running costs associated with hosting and curating the second BGS?

The proposal caters to all of these people. Having the Solo/PG/Open buttons removed doesn't affect their gameplay.

It does not - as, from previous discussions, some players only want to play in Solo or Private Groups and have no interest in an Open mode - whether it be PvE or PvP.

Why should a player's choice of game mode be arbitrarily removed?

What is the purpose of removing that choice.

From my answer written and edited yesterday, on this point and referenced above...
Those players would default to the PvE mode. This will have no effect on their gameplay. As and when they get full access, they will then be able to explicitly choose either PvE or PvP.

Without premium platform access the console service provider will not permit them to play in a multi-player game mode - it's Solo or nothing in that situation.

PvE mode will make encountering another player a non-event unless they specifically choose to engage in conversation.

It may, for some players, however, for reasons stated above, that is not the case for all players - and removing Solo and Private Groups looks to be a rather capricious proposal for no stated reason.

If you think these answers are insufficient, on specific grounds....

As above. :)
 
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which one would be Canon for Frontier - as they develop the evolving galaxy.

Isn't the point of E: D, that the galaxy is developed by the players? FDev's involvement should really be limited to bug fixing and content creation at this point. Unless you had something more specific in mind...

Speculation noted. Who would be expected to meet the additional running costs associated with hosting and curating the second BGS?
The same people expected to fund the current implementation.

It does not - as, from previous discussions, some players only want to play in Solo or Private Groups and have no interest in an Open mode - whether it be PvE or PvP.
[Solo] is the same as the new Open-PvE, in the effect it will have on the game you play.
A suggested above, no solution will fix any individual's "I bought three mode buttons" mind-set. This one only attempts to fix gameplay issues, and that will be enough I believe to convince those players that the changes have no negative implications for their game.

Without premium platform access the console service provider will not permit them to play in a multi-player game mode - it's Solo or nothing in that situation.
Quite, so OpenPvE as the default. No effect on their gameplay.

It may, for some players, however, for reasons stated above, that is not the case for all players
If OpenPvE want to keep unnecessary Mode switches, by all means... have them (and the additional costs of instancing that ensue?), but they will have no effect on your gameplay and are therefore pointless i.e not a capricious or unreasoned removal.
 
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Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Isn't the point of E: D, that the galaxy is developed by the players? FDev's involvement should really be limited to bug fixing and content creation at this point. Unless you had something more specific in mind...

What Frontier's involvement should (or should not) entail is for them to decide - it remains their game. The galaxy is affected by players - however new features, e.g. stations, megaships, etc., are not able to be implanted by players - nor the storylines behind them - then there may be new features in future DLC that Frontier decide to implant.

The same people expected to fund the current implementation.

Ah - so all players are expected to fund the requirements of those who want a PvP enabled game mode that is unaffected by other players in a game where PvP is entirely optional - got it.

[Solo] is the same as the new Open-PvE, in the effect it will have on the game you play.
A suggested above, no solution will fix any individual's "I bought three mode buttons" mind-set. This one only attempts to fix gameplay issues, and that will be enough I believe to convince those players that the changes have no negative implications for their game.

Agreed - there is no "solution" to the fact that we all bought a game with three game modes from which we are free to choose on a session by session basis.

What gameplay issues are expected to be solved by forcing players who would otherwise play in Solo or Private Groups to play in an Open mode, even if it is a PvE Open mode?

Quite, so OpenPvE as the default. No effect on their gameplay.

Solo is not Open. Open is multi-player. Console players without premium platform access cannot play in a multi-player game mode in this game.

If OpenPvE want to keep unnecessary Mode switches, by all means... have them, but they will have no effect on your gameplay and are therefore pointless (not a capricious or unreasoned removal).

It's a bit rich suggesting that those opposed to arbitrary removal of features are being done a favour by those features not being arbitrarily removed in a proposal that is not unanimously agreed to.

Choosing, on a session by session basis, how many players one may wish to encounter is a feature of this game, not a problem to be solved.
 
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What Frontier's involvement should (or should not) entail is for them to decide - it remains their game. The galaxy is affected by players - however new features, e.g. stations, megaships, etc., are not able to be implanted by players - nor the storylines behind them - then there may be new features in future DLC that Frontier decide to implant.
So we're agreed on the substance of this point, good.

Ah - so all players are expected to fund the requirements of those who want a PvP enabled game mode that is unaffected by other players in a game where PvP is entirely optional - got it.
Inversely, all players are expected to fund the requirements of those who want a PvE enabled game mode that is unaffected by other players in a game where PvE is entirely optional.

This is horses for courses. No net effect. And again you're assuming the opposite of the likely outcome which is a reduction in infrastructure costs.

What gameplay issues are expected to be solved by forcing players who would otherwise play in Solo or Private Groups to play in an Open mode, even if it is a PvE Open mode?
None. The proposal seeks to fix actual gameplay issues, namely, and I've been very explicit on this point, non-consensual PvP and protected BGS manipulation.
The 'fix' doesn't cause problems for anyone else, and seems unique in that characteristic.

Solo is not Open. Open is multi-player. Console players without premium platform access cannot play in a multi-player game mode in this game.
There is no logic to your argument. Perhaps the use of 'Open' needs to be removed for easier understanding of the issues... we can go with [PvEMode] & [PvPMode]. Either way the point is a non-sequitur. Basic access console players will not be affected by this proposal.

It's a bit rich suggesting that those opposed to arbitrary removal of features are being done a favour by those features not being arbitrarily removed in a proposal that is not unanimously agreed to.
Not rich, not arbitary. They are pointless modes leading to unnecessary expense given the changes proposed.
 
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If you think these answers are insufficient, on specific grounds....

Yes. I do.


This isn't an issue. It's the point of the split.

You say "it's the point of the split" as if it would not cause any issue for any other player. That's wrong.

I get it that "it's the point of the split" from your perspective, but you simply *can't* be stupid enough to think that this wouldn't actually *create* issues despite it being the entire point of your desired change...


Both would be Canon for its respective players

In which case, twice the staff would be required to curate the storyline for each separate galaxy, or it would take the same staff twice as long to generate the storyline for each galaxy. GalNet would be split into 2 and require at least *some* differing stories as the storyline progressed.
In some specific detail -I imagine that you would want PP to be in one galaxy and not the other, and for expansions/contractions of super-powers, and their aligned minor factions and government types to take place in one galaxy. Do you think that this should drive the other galaxy? Or should the other/second BGS be allowed to evolve due to the actions of the players within that galaxy BGS?
The whole idea of 2 x BGS is fundamentally flawed. Unless, of course, you impose the PvP galaxy state onto the PvE galaxy state such that those players cannot interact with it?
The idea appears to be fatally flawed from the get-go. That isn't my "opinion". That's a dispassionate deduction given the justifications I've just outlined above.



Ameliorated with with Penalties and Time Limits. Yesterday I amended an earlier answer regarding premium console access; preventing mode switches completely would penalise those players in particular, as and when they get full access.
However, exploits exist. They exist today and they will exist tomorrow irrespective of anything else that changes.

Fundamentally fraught with inconsistencies and inherent flaws.

In the case of any CMDR popping from one BGS to the other, the station they may be docked at would, in all probability, have different levels of faction status, different system states, etc. Even basic things like different commodity prices. The cotrolling faction would probably be different.
Do you allow cargo cross-over?
Is the penalty fixed?
What is the time limit for swapping BGS?
In one case, a cargo may have a loss on value. Do you also impose a "penalty" on top of the loss?
In one case it may be a faction in Boom changing to a different faction in famine. Or vice versa. What are the limits/penalties you impose on going one way against the other way?
It is entirely a non-starter as far as I can tell - far to complicated and far too wide-ranging for any set of arbitrary limits/penalties to be foreseen or to be "reasonably" thought out.



Negligibly, if at all.

It would definitely increase their running costs. There would be twice the data storage requirement and twice the maintenance of that data costs involved. As well as the cost of staff to write articles and progress the individual galaxy states, or the opportunity costs to the players of having the galaxy progress half as quickly with half the new content in the same time period.

Same number of players = same instancing requirements. The matchmaking server cost can't be reduced by any amount. Instances are still hosted peer-to-peer. Unless you want a wholesale re-write of the game to be a server/client network architecture, and then we're talking about very large costs involved with coding that new game code and the server farms that would require increased costs rather than the relatively modest matchmaking servers.

The server infrastructure would remain exactly the same, catering to the same number of players as it is now sending and receiving the same amount of data. It would reduce the server costs of instancing by removing unnecessary Solo/PG/Open mode switches. It may have an additional cost of running a separate BGS, but from what I understand this in itself is a minor cost, certainly compared to player numbers and instancing.


As above. Either way, the server infrastructure would need to be expanded. Perhaps "modestly". Perhaps not. The cost implication is a net extra spend.



The proposal caters to all of these people. Having the Solo/PG/Open buttons removed doesn't affect their gameplay.

Yes it does. I use all 3 modes. I expect that I am not alone.
The implication of locking in to one BGS or the softer lock of penalties and time-limits does indeed change every single player's game play. They either remain locked in one mode, or pay a penalty to be agile, and certainly cannot be as agile as we all are right this moment.
It would also "affect" every player's gameplay due to both BGS being divergent. Swapping modes would insert a player into a different BGS. A player who flew from A to B, then swapped modes, the B would be different, and then flying back to A that would be different too. That's a gameplay issue right there. It would affect every single player who chose to play in a mode-agile fashion. Or preferred to have mode agility, even if they then chose not to use it due to the differences they'd find on swapping BGS.





From my answer written and edited yesterday, on this point and referenced above...
Those players would default to the PvE mode. This will have no effect on their gameplay. As and when they get full access, they will then be able to explicitly choose either PvE or PvP.


Yes it would affect their gameplay for all of the reasons outlined above. The BGS is not static, but would evolve differently within each BGS. Divergent galaxies is a gameplay issue.


PvE mode will make encountering another player a non-event unless they specifically choose to engage in conversation.


You say non-event. I say exactly the opposite. There are players who eschew playing "amongst" other CMDRs for the simple reason of avoiding ridiculousness. Like joining a wing to find that another player in that very wing destroys them. That is a massive and significant disincentive for some people to be as sociable as they would like to be. Your experience of "PvE players" is clearly that they probably keep to themselves. In a PvE environment, there would be no disincentive to social contact and players would not feel compelled to "keep to ones-self". The environment and atmosphere would be entirely different. To the extent that I contest your description of "non-event".



Basically, you appear to be unwilling to invest any effort into visualising the factual implications of what you are suggesting. The direct consequences are, if I may - insurmountable. At least without any extra investment or direct costings and staffing issues if each discrete BGS are not to half their rates of progress and change.


Yours Aye

Mark H
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
So we're agreed on the substance of this point, good.

Nope. It's for Frontier to decide, not us.

Inversely, all players are expected to fund the requirements of those who want a PvE enabled game mode that is unaffected by other players in a game where PvE is entirely optional.

This is horses for courses. No net effect. And again you're assuming the opposite of the likely outcome which is a reduction in infrastructure costs.

How does any player play this game without engaging in PvE? In a previous, somewhat heated thread, Sandro reminded us that we all engage in PvE....

All players bought a game with a PvE mode, i.e. Solo.

No players bought a game where their preferred game mode is unaffected by players in the other two game modes, i.e. the single shared galaxy state is affected by all players, regardless of game mode or platform.

I doubt that infrastructure costs would reduce if the game required two discrete BGS.

.... or is it four discrete BGS? One for each platform's Open only mode and one tri-modal BGS for PvE.

None. The proposal seeks to fix actual gameplay issues, namely, and I've been very explicit on this point, non-consensual PvP and protected BGS manipulation.
The 'fix' doesn't cause problems for anyone else, and seems unique in that characteristic.

Then why does the proposal contain any elements that relate to a three game mode PvE BGS that does not affect the proposed Open only BGS?

There is no logic to your argument. Perhaps the use of 'Open' needs to be removed for easier understanding of the issues... we can go with [PvEMode] & [PvPMode]. Either way the point is a non-sequitur. Basic access console players will not be affected by this proposal.

Why should PC players who wish to play in Solo or Private Groups be affected by the proposal?

This game is sold to all players on the basis that they can all choose how many, or few, players they play among (non-premium platform console players excepted as they have only one option).

Not rich, not arbitary. They are pointless modes leading to unnecessary expense given the changes proposed.

That's one opinion. Other opinions vary. Matchmaking is used in all modes and facilitates the modes themselves.
 
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When FDev proposed the three modes this was to get as many people on board the kickstarter as possible.

It was a business move to even get the game into production. < This being very important.

Long term the division caused by this system is a good portion of the problem on these forums.

Personally, it seems ridiculous in this day and age to have a community which asks to be segregated from the rest of the players. With only a singular game mode costs would be less, and I would imagine things would be far more stable in game, as it would'nt have to tie together the infomation from three, essentially, parralel galaxies.
Results being a better connection, faster instancing, less lag, not to mention a galaxy that actually feels populated, and much more scope for new mechanics. (Be it those to support PvP, PP or whatever else. The basic infastructure needs vast improvement before any of this is possible)

The moded system is divisive and hugely limits the potential for both a stable, and content filled game.

ps: Plenty of console games have no single player nowdays, console players are well used to online only games. So that argument is a fallacy.
 
With only a singular game mode costs would be less, and I would imagine things would be far more stable in game, as it would'nt have to tie together the infomation from three, essentially, parralel galaxies.

There is only one galaxy and BGS.

The mode selection is simply the default matchmaking whitelist. There is no other functional difference between them and no real cost to having them.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
When FDev proposed the three modes this was to get as many people on board the kickstarter as possible.

Maybe - or maybe they wanted to give players choices as to how many players they play with.

It was a business move to even get the game into production. < This being very important.

That it did.

Long term the division caused by this system is a good portion of the problem on these forums.

The long term division relates to the fact that players can play the game without encountering players who wish to engage them in PvP - and some players cannot accept that fact.

Personally, it seems ridiculous in this day and age to have a community which asks to be segregated from the rest of the players.

Other opinions vary.

With only a singular game mode costs would be less, and I would imagine things would be far more stable in game, as it would'nt have to tie together the infomation from three, essentially, parralel galaxies.

Citation required on costs.

The matchmaking system underpins all three game modes - and various flags are used to determine which players might be instanced together.

The information from all instances is collated to affect the single BGS.

Results being a better connection, faster instancing, less lag, not to mention a galaxy that actually feels populated, and much more scope for new mechanics. (Be it those to support PvP, PP or whatever else. The basic infastructure needs vast improvement before any of this is possible)

Citation required in connection, instancing and lag.

PvP remains optional in this game - as it has always been.

The moded system is divisive and hugely limits the potential for both a stable, and content filled game.

It's a bit of a cliché no these forums but "I am not your content" is a perfectly valid response to those demanding that others play with them.

ps: Plenty of console games have no single player nowdays, console players are well used to online only games. So that argument is a fallacy.

Indeed - however using other games as comparators does not mean that this game requires to follow their lead.

Is there a suggestion that single player games are no longer on sale?
 
There is only one galaxy and BGS.

The mode selection is simply the default matchmaking whitelist. There is no other functional difference between them and no real cost to having them.

Are you sure?

Either way, that is still something that is running constantly, actively divvying up the playerbase and using up server resources to do so.

Like how you can skinny down the process' on your Pc to get a bit more oomph out of it, things like that^ , being removed would make a more playable and enjoyable experience for all.

Stable servers systems and less divsion in the community are the most important things.
 
Opinons may vary indeed.

I can't be bothered to argue semantics with you.

I've said my piece. I've no time for those who bleat the same tired nonsense time and time again.

Good luck in your next unwanted PvP encounter.
 
What is the proposal that results in less division between players with diametrically opposed play-style preferences?

If you say so Robert.

People like yourself are the ones serving the divisive nature of this game. Not I.

"Diametrically opposed" lol.

You need to go experience some more of the gaming communitys avalible mate. Very large amounts of them see PvP and PvE working together to move all thier ends. But then, theres always players who refuse to see that I guess.
 
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