General / Off-Topic Let's Have A Debate: The Best Star Wars Film - Empire Strikes Back vs Rogue One

Okay if I have to choose between these two, I choose Empire Strikes Back.
Though neither of these two is my favourite episode, actually. I have several issues with Rogue One, mainly the fact that it is pointless. It's a good film in itself, don't get me wrong, but from the hindsight and the standpoint of the whole saga, it either should have been the first film made or it shouldn't have been made at all.

Empire Strikes Back is fine. My second favourite episode.
 
Let's Have A Debate
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I'll start.....Rogue One introduced us all to a new bunch of characters and got us to like them.

Sorry. Does not compute.

However this does 100%:

I'm with Mr Plinkett on this one - Empire is the only actually decent SW film and mainly because GL had so little to do with it.
Rogue One was, imho, really awful garbage - mutton dressed as lamb.
I'd link the review but probably not a good idea - viewer discretion advised.

So yeah. Not a debate i can have really. It's like night and day. Any of the original SW films beats the living daylights out of Rouge One or any of the other SW films. They are just better scripts, with better direction and editing, better actors and better stories told in a superior way by individuals all better at their jobs than the people that worked on the prequels onwards (Lucas given way too much respect and reverence for the prequels, which is why they stank).
 
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I'll start. Rogue One did something even Star Trek Enterprise couldn't do, make a new entry in a franchise, with modern technology and make it look like it fits. Rogue One introduced us all to a new bunch of characters and got us to like them, from the wise-cracking droid to the blind keeper of the whylls (or is it whills?). It managed to explain a plot hole in the movie that follows it, tie up all the loose ends, have the new characters not being in the next movie actually make sense and gave us the best 60 seconds of Darth Vader we've ever had (until Star Wars Theory's fan film came along).
I agree. It's a fresh angle to the franchise and I think it's a good war movie in any universe . It reminds me of Heroes of Telemark............
 
I would struggle to fit Rogue One even in my personal top 5 best SW movies. And it's considering that Rogue One is probably the best Disney have managed to come up with.
 
Ok i had a bit more time to think about it and this possibility came to mind.

Rogue One should not have been a SW film at all.

It's tone was just so not right, i mean a story about the premise of the movie set in a 'real' SW setting would have been great fun, but to try to make SW an 'Full Metal Jacket' (too high praise i know) kind of thing just tilted it off the rails.

Rogue one should have been it's own thing, it's own new IP set in it's own new sci-fi universe, it would have had much more breathing room to develop fully without upsetting old SW die-hards (like me) and could have started it's own sequence of films for those wanting more (as it is ALL we get these days) gritty, grim, desperate and bleak sci-fi.

These guys get it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc2kFk5M9x4
 
This is an artifact caused by making a prequel 40 years later, with the advances in cinema.

Nevertheless, I would venture to offer this: few can confidently face their Master and prevail. It plays out in every dojo: experienced instructors can clobber all the students easily, but not the Master.

its made up. Remember the 'Fearsome' stormtroopers were defeated by Ewoks!
 
And the thing with Darth Vader being better, if you are into all the lore, Darth Vader was always that good, and while we understand that sword fighting in movies at that time wasn't as good as what we have today, there are story reasons for why the fight with Obi-Wan wasn't as action packed. My take on it is, they both know they can't defeat each other with lightsabers (as seen in Revenge of The Sith) and they can't defeat each other with force powers, so it's a mind game, not a sword battle.

Yea, I've heard that argument but, personally, I just don't buy it. Vader proclaims at beginning of his duel with Kenobi "Your powers are weak, old man." So, we know Vader believes it. But, regardless of whether he believed it or he was just messing with Kenobi's head, were I Vader? I'd be probing Kenobi for weakness. A thrust here, a feint there, not just with his glowy-stick but with his force powers. The battle would have slowly escalated using both tools until Vader found a weakness. And then there's Kenobi deliberately and obviously lowering his guard. Were I Vader, I would have been hesitant to take that, fearing that it was a similar feint from Kenobi.

But none of that argument explains the scene on board the Tantive, where troopers blow the door open and secure the ship and only then does Vader appear. Contrast that to the scene at the end of R1, where the V-man goes in alone -- on a much larger ship, no less -- and quashes them all by himself.


And they escaped Jedha because K2 was already in the ship flying around, on Scarif they had no escape ship ready for them. No-one on the ground there escaped that, both Rebels and Imperials died there.

That wasn't my point, however. :) The issue for me wasn't how they could escape. The issue was two things: not only how they could be in the exact same situation twice but exactly how it happened in both cases. To the first point, in terms of story telling, to me, it's just too much. One such scene should have been it.

But then there the little problem of how they were even given time to escape. First, we have the dilemma of why Tarkin even fired at either target. Jedha I can understand. You could argue that he was attempting to please the Emperor given how much Palpatine wanted the Jedi destroyed. But they didn't fire on Jedha directly. If Tarkin wanted to please the Emperor, he would have told them to do just that. "Target Jedha." Instead, he left that out and conveniently gave our heroes enough time to get away.

And then there's the dilemma of Scarif. An imperial facility. Yea, I know the Empire has a nasty reputation of not looking out for the people that fight for them, but even if I accept that (I don't) there's still a valuable resource below. And even though it was infested by Rebels, it was contained and the battle was being won both above and below, but, yea... let's just blow it up anyway. Oh, and... yea, don't target it directly, target it at an angle such that, somehow, we place the expendable bad guy directly in the beams path but, you know... still hit far enough away so that the heroes have one final dramatic moment together.

Don't get me wrong, ESB has its flaws too, but... none of them stack up quite as poorly as in R1. I liked R1, I liked it best of all the Disney Star Snores but, IMHO, it was not the better of the two. :)
 
This is an artifact caused by making a prequel 40 years later, with the advances in cinema.

The filmakers were careful to keep Tarkin and Leia consistent with 40 years ago. They should have done the same with Vader. My humble opinion, of course. :)

Nevertheless, I would venture to offer this: few can confidently face their Master and prevail. It plays out in every dojo: experienced instructors can clobber all the students easily, but not the Master.

Yea, but I just don't buy it. Just as I pointed out to Alien, Vader declared his master weak, and even if it was just a mind game, the battle between them should have included force powers as the probed each other for weakness. That and the difference in Vader on the Tantive vs. the end of R1. :)
 
Yea, I've heard that argument but, personally, I just don't buy it. Vader proclaims at beginning of his duel with Kenobi "Your powers are weak, old man." So, we know Vader believes it. But, regardless of whether he believed it or he was just messing with Kenobi's head, were I Vader? I'd be probing Kenobi for weakness. A thrust here, a feint there, not just with his glowy-stick but with his force powers. The battle would have slowly escalated using both tools until Vader found a weakness. And then there's Kenobi deliberately and obviously lowering his guard. Were I Vader, I would have been hesitant to take that, fearing that it was a similar feint from Kenobi.

But none of that argument explains the scene on board the Tantive, where troopers blow the door open and secure the ship and only then does Vader appear. Contrast that to the scene at the end of R1, where the V-man goes in alone -- on a much larger ship, no less -- and quashes them all by himself.




That wasn't my point, however. :) The issue for me wasn't how they could escape. The issue was two things: not only how they could be in the exact same situation twice but exactly how it happened in both cases. To the first point, in terms of story telling, to me, it's just too much. One such scene should have been it.

But then there the little problem of how they were even given time to escape. First, we have the dilemma of why Tarkin even fired at either target. Jedha I can understand. You could argue that he was attempting to please the Emperor given how much Palpatine wanted the Jedi destroyed. But they didn't fire on Jedha directly. If Tarkin wanted to please the Emperor, he would have told them to do just that. "Target Jedha." Instead, he left that out and conveniently gave our heroes enough time to get away.

And then there's the dilemma of Scarif. An imperial facility. Yea, I know the Empire has a nasty reputation of not looking out for the people that fight for them, but even if I accept that (I don't) there's still a valuable resource below. And even though it was infested by Rebels, it was contained and the battle was being won both above and below, but, yea... let's just blow it up anyway. Oh, and... yea, don't target it directly, target it at an angle such that, somehow, we place the expendable bad guy directly in the beams path but, you know... still hit far enough away so that the heroes have one final dramatic moment together.

Don't get me wrong, ESB has its flaws too, but... none of them stack up quite as poorly as in R1. I liked R1, I liked it best of all the Disney Star Snores but, IMHO, it was not the better of the two. :)

Very well debated, bravo good sir, I doff my cap to you. :D
 
Empire by miles.

I can't make my mind up about Rogue One. I would have loved it when I was a kid, but I found it a bit dull and flavourless as an adult.

Honestly Last Jedi is probably my favourite of the prequels/sequels (prepares to be strung up).
 
I would also say that Empire is only as good as it (obviously) is down to the original film and the way it built the characters and settings for the story. The contrast of victory in destroying the death star in Episode IV and the push-back and retreat of the rebellion from the empire (plus the obvious ! reveals about Luke and Darth etc) added to the ground work the first film had laid down. The Empire was no insignificant thing, no plastic villain there to be taken down, it had teeth and reach and a desire all it's own.

Sure Jedi lost a bit with the Ewoks (unless you were about 5 when it came out), but it also had the excellent ground work of the two previous films to work with, and it resolved Luke and Darth perfectly (even better in the books). Such a great trilogy. Shame everything after them pretty much ground-zeroed what they were about and had achieved. RIP Star Wars.
 
A New Hope.

Sparked the whole imagination of Star Wars and was unlike anything I had seen.

Not many films have had that kind of impact on myself like this.

I'll drop 2 more;
Alien
Blade Runner
 
Luke Skywalker: [angrily] I’ll never join you!
Vader: If only you knew the power of the Dark Side. Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father.
Luke: He told me enough! He told me you killed him!
Vader: No, I am your father.


No other SW film has come close to the importance of that scene.
 
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