A community divided by a game that went astray of its original vision

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. . . We obviously have "glass half full" and "glass half empty" personality types in the discussion, and all we are doing is trying to hold back each other's tide from coming in. Perhaps this thread should just be put to bed.

I disagree -- the different gameplay goals are NOT mutually exclusive, and it's divide'n'conquer to say so. [down]

I never said a word about different gameplay goals, so I have no idea what you are talking about. I was merely emphasizing that PC is not the only game that requires the purchase of packs or expansions or whatever to enjoy certain features, in fact, many games now follow that business model. It's called making money.

Once last time, we obviously have "glass half full" and "glass half empty" personality types in the discussion, and all we are doing is trying to hold back each other's tide from coming in. No one is ever going to "win" or "lose" this argument, and in my totally personal opinion, even if Frontier corrected every single little issue that people have, there are certain parties on the boards who would still find a reason to complain, or find fault with something. Hence the "glass half full" reference.

So again, perhaps this thread should just be put to bed.

If “all we are doing is trying to hold back each other's tide from coming in” isn't refering to people having mutually exclusive goals (for their gameplay) then I don't see what you're trying to say here. And yes, there will always be complainers -- that's no reason to ignore or silence legitimate complaints.
 
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And yes, there will always be complainers -- that's no reason to ignore or silence legitimate complaints.

But everyone feels their complaints are legitimate, do they not? lol



I don't personally have any problem at all with people posting differing view points on a thread like this, I think it's important. I sometimes think people forget that of the million+ units sold, not every one visits these official forums - most likely never do, and of those who do only a fraction are active or even visit more that once or twice, and of the fraction who do visit occasionally, only a handful care to add their opinion here on this topic, so sometimes the general inference that there's masses of people supporting either one side or the other of an argument seems a bit exaggerated. That's also perhaps why when a few people come across as 'demanding' some answer from Frontier on something or other I think they might be forgetting how many people they actually are speaking for when the vast majority of players are silent on any issue. You and I might agree that something matters to us, but when there's us and a handful of players adding their support, compare that to the near million others who are silent. Just something to think about...there needs to be some perspective.

One thing I will mention that I'm not in favor of is that there is a couple people who seem to have an occasional habit of popping onto threads that have little to nothing to do with anything being discussed here to leave a comment along the lines of "well Frontier didn't do this..." or "yeah, well, we told Frontier to fix XYZ over a year ago and they still haven't done it so the question you have won't be done either...'.

That solves NOTHING, it doesn't add much to that specific thread topic, and on my opinion really comes across poorly. I personally may well agree with your viewpoint 100%, but when it tossed into a conversation that isn't about that particular topic it seems more like someone just whining and going out of their way to take little snippy potshots at Frontier because they aren't getting their way. I've been noticing that happening a few times lately, and in my opinion that's the sort of thing that sours a community and can quickly turn others off from posting or even visiting, I've seen it happen before. And exactly what does that accomplish, for you or anyone else?

No one is saying your opinion isn't totally valid and worth hearing, but since it IS valid and worth hearing you should treat it with the same respect yourself as you want others to treat it with, and that includes not lessening it by tossing it into unrelated conversations or needlessly repeating it over and over. Otherwise people might tire of hearing it and your opinions will lose their value...which is something that shouldn't happen, I think everyone would agree. I for one may not share your opinion on something but I do want to hear it...just not spread around on unrelated threads or posted repeatedly over and over! LOL!
 
Once last time, we obviously have "glass half full" and "glass half empty" personality types in the discussion, and all we are doing is trying to hold back each other's tide from coming in. No one is ever going to "win" or "lose" this argument, and in my totally personal opinion, even if Frontier corrected every single little issue that people have, there are certain parties on the boards who would still find a reason to complain, or find fault with something. Hence the "glass half full" reference.

You got one thing right: No matter how you look at it the glass is not full, it's half full at best. There are "big item issues" with PC and those are not that the top 3 features off someone's wishlist aren't implemented.

It's the bigger stuff like the management gameplay falling way short. Things like the sequencer being a ridiculous desaster of a design. The handling of tools still giving off a - how shall I put this? - beta kind of vibe. Same with the UI. The item catalogue (roof pieces!)...
Feel free to add from the list of the objectively weak areas of PC. If those are fixed there might still be people comlaining, of course. But as has been pointed out that is not a valid argument.
 
I..... even if Frontier corrected every single little issue that people have, there are certain parties on the boards who would still find a reason to complain, .....

You are correct. On the other hand, it´s about to see if the complaints are reasonable. If people complain about UI being bad, fireworks needs to be reworked, something should be done about building tools in general, we should have shuttle mode for transport rides, gameplay is unbalanced and gets boring or even annoying very fast.... These are objectively complaints that are correct. We had had set the standards from the previous titles in the series so we expected them to be at least the same, or even better. Some things are still missing and I think it is reasonable to expect the things I listed for example....

When these crucial problems are gone, there will be mostly complaints that you cannot build a parking lot, you cannot play as a guest or ride operator, that you cannot build a hospital, space station or airport :p.

I still don´t get, why they added hotels for instance. Yes, it´s not bad idea, I could imagine them being added too, but it makes me a bit upset they add this kind of things (not so much related to managing a theme park) and yet, there is many other important and reasonable requests around that devs are appearently just ignoring and trying to avoid at all costs...

And on the top of that, they supply us with paid scenery DLC so we can suffer more with unintuitive building system (I wish they at least brough back hide/unhide feature), broken selection tools and other things. :(
 
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Again: Did you see the latest DLC: Parklife from Cities: Skylines? It was a highly requested topic on the forums and they actually provide and make tools and instructions for modders to easy mod the game to see what the possibilities are. To talk about the success factor of Cities Skylines: It is used in real city management. So there are people getting paid to 'play' it for a real city design! It just shows that if you LISTEN to what the community tells you, you have the big success factor all in hand. I think Frontier should consider it. Even since we can make our own Themeparks and Zoos in Cities Skylines from may on.
 
Again: Did you see the latest DLC: Parklife from Cities: Skylines? It was a highly requested topic on the forums and they actually provide and make tools and instructions for modders to easy mod the game to see what the possibilities are. To talk about the success factor of Cities Skylines: It is used in real city management. So there are people getting paid to 'play' it for a real city design! It just shows that if you LISTEN to what the community tells you, you have the big success factor all in hand. I think Frontier should consider it. Even since we can make our own Themeparks and Zoos in Cities Skylines from may on.

People still play and make new things for Sims 3 because of the modding tools both official and fan made. It's pretty crazy a game that old still has quite a following.
 
Again: Did you see the latest DLC: Parklife from Cities: Skylines? It was a highly requested topic on the forums and they actually provide and make tools and instructions for modders to easy mod the game to see what the possibilities are. To talk about the success factor of Cities Skylines: It is used in real city management. So there are people getting paid to 'play' it for a real city design! It just shows that if you LISTEN to what the community tells you, you have the big success factor all in hand. I think Frontier should consider it. Even since we can make our own Themeparks and Zoos in Cities Skylines from may on.

Wow thats great news. I love Cities Skylines since they did almost everything right and now I can build team parks in there?



People still play and make new things for Sims 3 because of the modding tools both official and fan made. It's pretty crazy a game that old still has quite a following.

Yes, mods is what keeps a game fresh and alive even after many years. It's made by fans for the fans.
 
People still play and make new things for Sims 3 because of the modding tools both official and fan made. It's pretty crazy a game that old still has quite a following.

Wow thats great news. I love Cities Skylines since they did almost everything right and now I can build team parks in there?





Yes, mods is what keeps a game fresh and alive even after many years. It's made by fans for the fans.

They only started supporting mods cause many people are using them. But i cannot start the game cause my sims3 launcher is crashing all the time. I have to deal with 4 which has just as Planet Coaster some improvements, but also a lot of flaws.
 
Cities Skylines: It is used in real city management. So there are people getting paid to 'play' it for a real city design!

Not to rain on your parade, but I searched and found no official mention of a real actual city utilizing this software for planning purposes. There were a few articles suggesting it could be used, but not that is was being employed by a genuine city.

Are you sure this isn't an urban myth or something?
 
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I have 3 "complaints" with the game at the moment.. And this is based off 1500 hours of game play, these are starting to grate on me a little. So feel that I need to air them here, while we are all having a constructive whinge..

Performance needs looking at. This isn't a "it's badly optimised" comment because I don't think it is badly optimised. This is a comment that performance in late-game sucks, just like RCT3 did back in the day and just like Sim City 3000 did in the early 2000s; a symptom of this kind of game. But this doesn't inspire you to stick with a park as it dies very quickly. The performance fall-down has been getting progressively earlier as they release more DLC items too - obviously because it has to render and index more and more new objects than before. I think it needs a bit of a performance patch where some-one sits down with everything and sees if there is a better or more efficient way of doing things. I get that I describe "optimisation" here, so I get the irony of my statement. But this is more of them needing to sit back and take stock of what they NOW have to find efficiencies rather than saying that they were bad from the start.

Which leads me to point 2, still performance related. I reported many months ago, and again a week ago that guests in queues create lag. And the slower the queue or the more in the queue, the worse it is. If you have a park of 16000 guests and close / empty the queue of your rides, you can experience as much as a 50% increase in FPS. now, based on my investigation and my limited information, it seems that the guest collision and path finding may be at fault. It seems that guests in queues are still looking for paths to things that satisfy their needs that have declined while in a queue. But as they can't find a path because they are in a queue, they continue to recalculate constantly. Take them out of the queue and their path to that needs-satisfying location is clear.

And third; track rides throughput and demand cripples the game completely. It's not so bad in early game, but in the same 16,000 guest park (when it was at 11,000), I create a Hoax that had 1600 prestige; way higher than anything you can achieve with a coaster and I managed to squeeze just short of 9000 guests into the queue for it. All of the other rides had died in demand completely, the game slowed to a complete halt because of Complaint 2. Now, this doesn't take a mathematician to work out that this is not right. A guest will typically be in the park for around 300 to 500 real-world minutes. A guest joining the Hoax queue at it's max will get on the ride in 1,370 real-life mins. But yet, despite this being clearly rubbish, it's gone ignored. They have literally developed a batch of rides that are useless to any-one with big-park ambitions. "All" they need to do it adjust the track-ride demands / prestige to fix it.. This sort of leads into a fourth, which is the station load / unload situation. If they allowed simultaneous unload and load of stations, this track ride issue wouldn't be so bad. But that's another thread all together!

In conclusion, I think that these complaints of mine would be put to rest if the dev team acknowledged them and explained why they are like they are. I know Andy did a fantastic job of explaining some of the performance related stuff in the early days, so an update to this would be helpful - as for the other stuff, WHY is the station loading the way it is? WHY is performance suffering earlier with the more DLC's they load? WHY do guest in queues cause the lag it does? At least if we knew why, we could start to understand whether the complaints are justified or not.
 
I have 3 "complaints" with the game at the moment.. And this is based off 1500 hours of game play, these are starting to grate on me a little. So feel that I need to air them here, while we are all having a constructive whinge..

Performance needs looking at. This isn't a "it's badly optimised" comment because I don't think it is badly optimised. This is a comment that performance in late-game sucks, just like RCT3 did back in the day and just like Sim City 3000 did in the early 2000s; a symptom of this kind of game. But this doesn't inspire you to stick with a park as it dies very quickly. The performance fall-down has been getting progressively earlier as they release more DLC items too - obviously because it has to render and index more and more new objects than before. I think it needs a bit of a performance patch where some-one sits down with everything and sees if there is a better or more efficient way of doing things. I get that I describe "optimisation" here, so I get the irony of my statement. But this is more of them needing to sit back and take stock of what they NOW have to find efficiencies rather than saying that they were bad from the start.

One thing they could do to save CPU power is scrapping the broken guest brain and individual need meters for every guest. The AI does a horrible job at simulating guest decisions and could be replaced with something that doesn't constantly recalculate and change the next destination for guest groups.
In addition there is no real upside to guests having their own set of traits and individual need meters. Groups could just use the same traits and shared need meters.
 
One thing they could do to save CPU power is scrapping the broken guest brain and individual need meters for every guest. The AI does a horrible job at simulating guest decisions and could be replaced with something that doesn't constantly recalculate and change the next destination for guest groups.
In addition there is no real upside to guests having their own set of traits and individual need meters. Groups could just use the same traits and shared need meters.

Oh yes! Lightbulb moment... That's absolutely what's happening... The game is calculating the needs of 16000 individual guests, who then make decisions based on these when in reality (as it stands now any-way) they never break away from each other and only ever act as a group... So, calculating individual needs is a redundant calculation when doing a group is more efficient. I wonder if that's even occurred to them?
 
Not to rain on your parade, but I searched and found no official mention of a real actual city utilizing this software for planning purposes. There were a few articles suggesting it could be used, but not that is was being employed by a genuine city.

Are you sure this isn't an urban myth or something?

It is confirmed by Paradox and Collosal Order that some traffic issues and new city districts have been tested in the game. Says enough for me.
 
Oh yes! Lightbulb moment... That's absolutely what's happening... The game is calculating the needs of 16000 individual guests, who then make decisions based on these when in reality (as it stands now any-way) they never break away from each other and only ever act as a group... So, calculating individual needs is a redundant calculation when doing a group is more efficient. I wonder if that's even occurred to them?

they probably didnt account for how taxing these guest needs would eventually be in a full build theme park
 
I played the game for more than 300 hours, and I agree more or less with a lot of the flaws that have being pointed out in this thread. But what really amazes me (in a negative way) is why, dear Frontier, we still can't have some of the essential functions that were incorporated from the start in RCT3? The first one that comes to my mind is to have a direct link to click in the notification to find a guest that has a problem. While now, with PC, we have frustrating notifications that say that there is a problem in the park, but you have to search it manually where the problem is, for example trapped guests, and it can take ages in a big park. Not to mention the already mentioned lack of a testing mode in stopped time. Just this lack, for me, kills the 50% of the pleasure of building your own coaster in career mode or scenarios, and force you to use the blueprints for efficiency.

So I would simply ask to the Devs, why did you remove essential functions that were already implemented in your previous game?
 
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