General / Off-Topic Moderation going forward

[Harbinger]

As posted by Brett in response to a post by redrum in a different topic:

This is a classic netiquette issue found everywhere since early internet days. It may seem obvious, but there's a direct connection between how someone expresses an opinion, and the elevation in tone of replies and counter-arguments. Trouble usually starts when opinion is expressed as fact. Eg, "The user interface is unbelievably bad" is a good example of opinion expressed as fact.

What happens is people feel more obliged to vigorously counter-argue an "opinion fact" because the nature of a fact is final. Nobody likes to be told that something is final, particularly when your experience is different. Had the person used two simple words "I think..." or "IMHO" or "I find" then it takes the edge off the "my way or the highway" expression of an idea.
[snip]

Myself and the moderators here on the PC forums came to a head yesterday about this very issue. We'll be cracking down on those sort of issues on our forums. To be precise, especially with replies to threads that are off-topic, attempting to hijack the discussion, as well as harassment by proxy (indirectly harassing others).

Hopefully with this change we'll begin to see some more robust discussions on our forums rather newly made threads getting shut-out for the above reasons by individuals. [happy]

Just as an FYI the Forum Rules and Guidelines have recently been updated. Please take the time to review them.

If you wish to discuss this, please do so here to keep from derailing other topics. Thanks.

 

[GuyChicago]

This is NOT a happy place anymore. This post alone confuses me SO MUCH!

EDIT!!! (did not mean to "derail" anything)

 

[Joël]

This is NOT a happy place anymore. This post alone confuses me SO MUCH!

EDIT!!! (did not mean to "derail" anything)

The latest updates of the rules are meant to end the toxic climate that has plagued some of the threads on the forums in the last few months. Our goal is to have a safe, friendly and enjoyable platform on the forums that players can enjoy without having to be afraid of toxic behaviour of others.

 

[Harbinger]

As Joël said we do not want to stifle genuine friendly discussion.

What we do want to do is prevent is people coming in to a topic about one thing and trying to turn it into something entirely different (derailing), often because they want to highlight their own frustrations about the direction of development. They then typically proceed to shut down anyone who has an opinion diametrically opposed to their own by referring to them as "white knights", "fanboys" etc. On the flip side of the coin returning fire when such things happen is no more acceptable so if anyone is engaging in such things then please hit that report button and we'll deal with it.

What will no longer be happening when we have to act is advisories, if someone is found to be breaking the rules then we will going straight to infractions, all of which now guarantee a timeout and even when this ends the points will remain on a users record for a long time so subsequent rule breaks will result in longer timeouts for every subsequent infraction to the point a user may be permanently excluded from this community.

For too long has this community been allowed to remain toxic. Frontier has recognised this is destroying the community on the official forums and as such has empowered us to tackle it head on.

 

[gregorburns]

I hope you start to actually pay attention to post reports about users who are bullying others. I stopped using the forums regularly a long time ago because I was being constantly attacked and my reports were ignored. I won't be coming back to regular posting because of that, but I really hope that the new rules are actually followed and acted upon now for the sake of other users.

 

[Joël]

The updated rules will and already have been followed and acted upon from the moment they were updated earlier this week.

There is now a zero-tolerance when it comes to things like bullying, personal attacks, toxic behaviour and thread hijacking, for example.

We have always payed attention to reports, but our previous policy did not always allow us moderators to do “the right thing”. I am glad that we are now empowered to tackle these things.

Please do use the “report this post” feature if you see behaviour that is violating the rules.

Thanks for using the Planet Coaster forums!

 

[wowman]

I realize what you guys (moderators) do is hard at times and your work on this is much appreciated. THX

 

[Joël]

I realize what you guys (moderators) do is hard at times and your work on this is much appreciated. THX

Thanks! Glad to be of help.

 

[Scott.]

It’s a shame that the only thing frontier recognise is the toxic nature of their forum. I agree that member attitudes Need addressing but most of this is fuelled by a lack of information or clarity from frontier so people are left to push opinions as fact.

Infract users, ban them but imo frontier have as much to blame for the state of their forums. Silence is deafening and the forums died a long time ago. Posts like this one simply turn me off even more and make me want to come back less. This is of course just my opinion.

 

[gregorburns]

It’s a shame that the only thing frontier recognise is the toxic nature of their forum. I agree that member attitudes Need addressing but most of this is fuelled by a lack of information or clarity from frontier so people are left to push opinions as fact.

Infract users, ban them but imo frontier have as much to blame for the state of their forums. Silence is deafening and the forums died a long time ago. Posts like this one simply turn me off even more and make me want to come back less. This is of course just my opinion.

I get what you mean. This forum used to be really good when they had weekly posts and the staff were involved with the community. But unfortunately their public relations has really gone downhill - they don't even respond to emails at their community email address anymore. This change in the forum rules is a good step in the right direction, I would say, but having a blanket ban policy is no better than a no-ban policy imo. Frontier don't know how to do things in halves...

I would love to see a middle ground with the moderation here, using most other forums on the internet as an example. Unfortunately I don't have any hope in the new changes at all.

I was attacked constantly by a single user here many months ago that drove me to stop posting. No matter how many reports and emails I sent, not a thing was done to punish that person or help me. In fact the only actions I saw taken against anyone was when I vented my frustrations about it - they were quick to get rid of that of course. I'm glad this thread is here so I can finally say this without being deleted for breaking rule 12. And yes apparently that rule also applies in private messages to moderators [uhh].

I really don't want to hate on frontier because I love the community they brought me into in the first place. I'm just very very frustrated that they won't listen to the community anymore.

 

[Brett C]

Hi Gregor, the pendulum swung the other way hard - intentionally. Over time, we'll let up on the infraction-only policy, and will have advisories plus infractions.

This same strict policy was done on our primary forums, the Frontier Forums, when the rules were revamped and changed in 2016.

 

[Brett C]

Additionally, you guys should make use of the Post Reputation system when you can!

If there's a positive post made, give them rep.[up]

 

[seeker939]

I find the OP a bit confusing because I'm not exactly sure how the "The user interface is unbelievably bad" example connects to the response by Brett.

(Also the suggested solution in the first quote would be spamming IMHOs throughout posts? Not sure what that would accomplish. Isn't the problem with the mentioned statement that it's too general and doesn't mean anything? Instead of just saying something is good or bad I think it's helpful to be specific - if I say "UI is unintuitive and item sorting/categories are chaotic" everybody can understand what I'm talking about.)

What we do want to do is prevent is people coming in to a topic about one thing and trying to turn it into something entirely different (derailing), often because they want to highlight their own frustrations about the direction of development. They then typically proceed to shut down anyone who has an opinion diametrically opposed to their own by referring to them as "white knights", "fanboys" etc. On the flip side of the coin returning fire when such things happen is no more acceptable so if anyone is engaging in such things then please hit that report button and we'll deal with it.

I think it's a good thing to have more moderation where needed to keep threads "on track". What I'm a bit disapppointed about is seeing the problem described as above. I don't agree that it's always the critics hijacking topics and defenders merely reacting to such hijacking. This view seems one sided and I don't think it's an accurate description of what is happening on here. So what I hope is that mods will look at things not only from one perspective.

 

[WingardiumLevicoaster]

I find the OP a bit confusing because I'm not exactly sure how the "The user interface is unbelievably bad" example connects to the response by Brett.

(Also the suggested solution in the first quote would be spamming IMHOs throughout posts? Not sure what that would accomplish. Isn't the problem with the mentioned statement that it's too general and doesn't mean anything? Instead of just saying something is good or bad I think it's helpful to be specific - if I say "UI is unintuitive and item sorting/categories are chaotic" everybody can understand what I'm talking about.)



I think it's a good thing to have more moderation where needed to keep threads "on track". What I'm a bit disapppointed about is seeing the problem described as above. I don't agree that it's always the critics hijacking topics and defenders merely reacting to such hijacking. This view seems one sided and I don't think it's an accurate description of what is happening on here. So what I hope is that mods will look at things not only from one perspective.

Part of our role is to be impartial when enforcing rules. If you feel this isn't the case, it can be escalated by appealing a moderation action.

 

[seeker939]

Part of our role is to be impartial when enforcing rules. If you feel this isn't the case, it can be escalated by appealing a moderation action.

Just to be clear, I feel it's not exactly the case in that post I quoted. I wasn't talking about specific mod actions. Just wanted to point this out before anyone needs to appeal anything. [up]

 

[Jammy3112]

It's such a shame that a post like this had to be made [sad]
But, I am glad to see that something is being done on here. I remember being on here all the time, but life got in the way. Then upon my return it seemed there was this air of negativity and it was off putting.

Thank you to the team here for looking into this and getting it sorted though [big grin] You guys have a tough job, and I look forward to seeing this place thrive again under the new rules!

 

[redrum]

..Instead of just saying something is good or bad I think it's helpful to be specific .

I agree! Your post raises all good points. My example was more about how small fires can start from posting frequent dogmatic assertions. It's never about isolated posts.

Some people have "dug in" so to speak, a repetitious negativity that over time pushes others to react. If people are frightened off by this, then all that's left is a negative echo chamber. Obviously the people who have gone to the dark side too much, have also posted positively... but it's about how you *mostly* post that matters.

The other final point I'd offer on this topic (I don't pretend to have solutions, only observations), is behaviour relative to where you are.

I've always thought that the home base forum for a product is where contributors are expected to be... how to put it, more polite than say a comment on youtube. Even reddit and Steam I consider to be more "wild west" in that regard. Of course, some people are just nice wherever they are, using calm tone and always polite. Not me! But I try to behave myself on homebase forums at least. The forum located on the very domain of the product owner, *should* feel like stepping into the owner's house. If the rules ask that you remove your shoes on entry, then remove your shoes!

Im procrastinating my park build right now. Sometimes I wonder if this exact thing can be correlated to discussion intensity!

 

[Joël]

I find the OP a bit confusing because I'm not exactly sure how the "The user interface is unbelievably bad" example connects to the response by Brett.

(Also the suggested solution in the first quote would be spamming IMHOs throughout posts? Not sure what that would accomplish. Isn't the problem with the mentioned statement that it's too general and doesn't mean anything? Instead of just saying something is good or bad I think it's helpful to be specific - if I say "UI is unintuitive and item sorting/categories are chaotic" everybody can understand what I'm talking about.)

I think that you're doing a good job here with the start of your reply; "I find that...". This can be preferred above "the OP is confusing". While it may be confusing for you, it isn't confusing for everyone, so it's not a fact but instead an opinion, or an experience.

This brings me to one of the problems that kept occurring in several threads; people state their opinions as facts. This is often a cause of problems; stating an opinion as a fact makes it sound like something final which is valid and true for everyone, which is not the case with an opinion. Opinions are personal and aren't shared by everyone. Ultimately this can lead to the derailing of a discussion, because the offender(s) and defender(s) tend to stick with discussing each other and their opinions, instead of the game itself. This is considered thread hijacking and/or thread derailing and is no longer allowed on the Planet Coaster forums. Discuss the game, not each other, and try to state your opinion as opinion (by using words like "I think" or "I find").

The reply of Brett was a general reply and not just a response related to redrum's post.

 

[Harbinger]

I find the OP a bit confusing because I'm not exactly sure how the "The user interface is unbelievably bad" example connects to the response by Brett.

If you wish to see the entire context you can read the original thread by clicking the (Source) link embedded on the top line of the quote.