Now see here's where I call it like I see it. Some people are voicing their opinion and to throw willie nillie that 5 to 10 percent want this has no factual basis. It would be no different than if the creative portion was apparently lacking and people were voicing their concerns about scenery/terrain tools/etc...Step carefully zmego because I'm not making this personal. If you wish to delve further into debate I would suggest that you PM those members who you deem are complaining about the lack of management detail to continue the discussion because your post, in my humble opinion, doesn't respect the discussion offered by a group of people here who want great management detail.
Management Matters
- Thread starter Bo Marit
- Start date
Now see here's where I call it like I see it. Some people are voicing their opinion and to throw willie nillie that 5 to 10 percent want this has no factual basis. It would be no different than if the creative portion was apparently lacking and people were voicing their concerns about scenery/terrain tools/etc...Step carefully zmego because I'm not making this personal. If you wish to delve further into debate I would suggest that you PM those members who you deem are complaining about the lack of management detail to continue the discussion because your post, in my humble opinion, doesn't respect the discussion offered by a group of people here who want great management detail.
My post wasn't intended as an insult. My apologies if it was taken as such.
My point of the 5-10% is that I believe most of the people who will eventually be purchasing (or having Mom and Dad purchasing) and playing this game won't care about the very detailed management aspects that have been suggested over the last several pages of this thread. I of course could be wrong, but based on just this community it seems like the people who want more detailed management are in the minority.
Allow me to make an example. I played World of Warcraft for years. Early on in the game I was a hardcore player in a hardcore guild. We played lots to get through the toughest parts of the game so we could have the best gear. The problem is most people don't have the time or patience to play that much, but the "average" player still wants a chance at the best gear int he game. Faced with this dilemma Blizzard started making it easier for casual players to have access to the best gear. This upset the hardcore people, but in the end the hardcore raiders made up a very small percentage of the 12 million players. Blizzard made the choice to pander to the 99% and upset the 1% because the 99% pay the bills. I haven't played in years, but my understanding is they have started to address this and have come up with some scenarios for H=hardcore raiders to have some fun too.
All I was trying to say is that it is really easy to over complicate (not to mention difficult to develop) management and take away from other parts of the game that are supposed to be fun and not frustrating. I think at some point Frontier has to balance what will work for everyone vs. what will work for the few and at what cost?
I understand the desire for a realistic management type, but I also realize that this is game trying to make money. I hope that makes sense.
I wasn't trying to disrespect the discussion, just trying to offer a logical point of view.
My point of the 5-10% is that I believe most of the people who will eventually be purchasing (or having Mom and Dad purchasing) and playing this game won't care about the very detailed management aspects that have been suggested over the last several pages of this thread. I of course could be wrong, but based on just this community it seems like the people who want more detailed management are in the minority.
Allow me to make an example. I played World of Warcraft for years. Early on in the game I was a hardcore player in a hardcore guild. We played lots to get through the toughest parts of the game so we could have the best gear. The problem is most people don't have the time or patience to play that much, but the "average" player still wants a chance at the best gear int he game. Faced with this dilemma Blizzard started making it easier for casual players to have access to the best gear. This upset the hardcore people, but in the end the hardcore raiders made up a very small percentage of the 12 million players. Blizzard made the choice to pander to the 99% and upset the 1% because the 99% pay the bills. I haven't played in years, but my understanding is they have started to address this and have come up with some scenarios for H=hardcore raiders to have some fun too.
All I was trying to say is that it is really easy to over complicate (not to mention difficult to develop) management and take away from other parts of the game that are supposed to be fun and not frustrating. I think at some point Frontier has to balance what will work for everyone vs. what will work for the few and at what cost?
I understand the desire for a realistic management type, but I also realize that this is game trying to make money. I hope that makes sense.
I wasn't trying to disrespect the discussion, just trying to offer a logical point of view.
All good. It reminds me of being a Beta Test coordinator for America's Army. I was tasked with a "competition" group. A group of maybe 30-35 guys who were REALLY into the hardcore mode stuff (No HUD, no crosshairs, no ammo counts, etc). Of the America's Army player group I would estimate them at maybe 2 percent of the "typical" player. A very small group of people indeed. But their wish list was a mile long and when the Devs did not agree or adhere to their desires it was UGLY. I played walking the fence. Make the game accessible to the general population but also throw some "carrots" to those players who wanted a more authentic experience. I'm not a game developer but the experience drove home the old cliche "You can't please everyone". The Devs wanted to make the game more "competition" friendly. They got a LOT of feedback and for all I know that may have been the intent all along.
So I understand that the Developers here have to find a balance of making the game accessible to everyone. It just makes more fiscal sense to do so. Finding that balance of accessibility versus complicate designs I'm sure is no easy task. But then again look at what they've done on the creative portion of the ball game and you can see how players who like the management stuff can feel a bit "anxious" in the lack of depth so far...
Cities: Skylines has over 2 million in sales. Prison Architect has around 2 million as well. Those are small games, that aren't as impressive as PC. You think that making management simple, it'll expand the audience. I think just the opposite. There is a minor resurgence happening in the management/tycoon genre and PC can capitalize on it.
And I also think that you're making a classic logical error. I say I want deeper management. That does not mean I want Capitalism II.
Also, I did find your first post pretty rude. It sounded like you were saying, if you don't like the current management, then the community would be better off without you. PC is my most anticipated game ever. It's incredibly impressive. That doesn't mean it's perfect. That doesn't mean it merits no discussion.
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My first post was definitely not meant that way. After reading it myself I can see how it seemed short and in part it was. Everyday we are seeing just how amazing this game is going to be and the "great job" comments are outnumbered 1000 to 1 to comments like "but what about X and Y". I guess personally I would like to see a little more gratitude and a little less, "I'm not happy because...".
Just an opinion, like it or hate it.
I know you didn't mean anything. Just thought you should know how it came across. If you want to see hype, just wait a week!
We are in a management thread though, and considering the tone I think it would behoove Frontier to consider the things said in here.
I understand that the devs team try to please the majority and find a balance between fun, creative side and management side. I just don't know how much percentage of the players prefer a lot more creative, a little bit of creative/management and a lot more management.
There's game with a lot of management that works well, there's also game with more creative side that works well.
I just want to say that everyone is different and prefer different things and we're here to talk about our preferences so, exactly, the devs team could read and take comments into account to try to know their wider audience and make the game more toward this.
If there's more demand about creative side, I understand that they'll develop more about this. But I've no fact to know this. The only thing I know is that for me, I'm more a manager and I still hope for something more challenging and with to see more impact of my management choices in the game. I don't need to manage how much salt there's in my burger...[happy]
There's game with a lot of management that works well, there's also game with more creative side that works well.
I just want to say that everyone is different and prefer different things and we're here to talk about our preferences so, exactly, the devs team could read and take comments into account to try to know their wider audience and make the game more toward this.
If there's more demand about creative side, I understand that they'll develop more about this. But I've no fact to know this. The only thing I know is that for me, I'm more a manager and I still hope for something more challenging and with to see more impact of my management choices in the game. I don't need to manage how much salt there's in my burger...[happy]
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This is a really interesting thread and I thought I'd add my own thoughts.
I've been eagerly watching this game since the first video and bought into the Alpha at the first chance - I've had great fun with it so far and surprised myself (mostly through the game's excellent design tools) at my creative talents (when I'm not comparing myself to YouTube celebrities). However, I'm definitely more of a management style player and in terms of the different views being shared in this thread, I'm more on the side of those who feel the management element won't live up to the sheer scale and audacity of the creative features.
When Frontier say simulation evolved I understand where they are coming from - the AI developed for the guest and staff is a significant step up from previous iterations; I think the reason that this is not so impactful on the management element is that the games before it did so well at tricking players that all this AI was happening in real time, when it was otherwise some very smart script routines. So from a simulation perspective, Frontier are hitting it out of the park but in terms of what we the players see, it's to some extent expected.
The concern about the management is so pronounced now because it was implied at the outset that management was at the heart of the game and would be shown towards the end of the development. We are seeing it now, and I think there are a proportion of people who are underwhelmed by what's been shown. There is certainly no obvious evolution on the management perspective (as there clearly has been for the creative and visual elements) - what did we want? It's hard to say, but something new which would drive this genre forward.
Here's an example (which has been mentioned a few times by various people): Clicking a button to get a staff member trained to level 3 just doesn't feel satisfying - having to build an administration block where the training is held (having to hire a trainer, who can perhaps only train 5 people at one time and the requirement to buy the training equipment etc) and seeing your person toddle of and sit in the training room and be trained, whilst a rookie member of staff has to cover their post, not only makes training far more interesting (how do you incorporate the staff building with the park decor; balancing the cost of paying for the trainer and the equipment vs the future skills of your member of staff; whilst the rookie covers perhaps the quality of service reduces so you have to balance the person going for training and the poor service guests will receive whilst they are away) it's also more realistic - this, to me, feels like moving the management element forward.
Another example could be stalls where you can win prizes at skill-based games (most theme parks have these - This American Life [episode 433] once did an entire episode dedicated to the staff at a small US amusement park who worked solely on these types of game stalls - and where a significant amount of money is made), where you have to balance the cost of the prize for the likelihood of winning, with guests getting annoyed if they think they've been cheated. A more highly trained staff member might be better at getting guests to play the game and part with their cash etc.
The creative-centric fans have had over 6 months to discuss with the development team how they can improve that area even more; unfortunately, due to the fact that the management side is being shown so late in the game, those who are more focussed on it have less time to provide some input.
I'm still going to play and love the game, but I have the sad feeling of a slightly missed opportunity.
I've been eagerly watching this game since the first video and bought into the Alpha at the first chance - I've had great fun with it so far and surprised myself (mostly through the game's excellent design tools) at my creative talents (when I'm not comparing myself to YouTube celebrities). However, I'm definitely more of a management style player and in terms of the different views being shared in this thread, I'm more on the side of those who feel the management element won't live up to the sheer scale and audacity of the creative features.
When Frontier say simulation evolved I understand where they are coming from - the AI developed for the guest and staff is a significant step up from previous iterations; I think the reason that this is not so impactful on the management element is that the games before it did so well at tricking players that all this AI was happening in real time, when it was otherwise some very smart script routines. So from a simulation perspective, Frontier are hitting it out of the park but in terms of what we the players see, it's to some extent expected.
The concern about the management is so pronounced now because it was implied at the outset that management was at the heart of the game and would be shown towards the end of the development. We are seeing it now, and I think there are a proportion of people who are underwhelmed by what's been shown. There is certainly no obvious evolution on the management perspective (as there clearly has been for the creative and visual elements) - what did we want? It's hard to say, but something new which would drive this genre forward.
Here's an example (which has been mentioned a few times by various people): Clicking a button to get a staff member trained to level 3 just doesn't feel satisfying - having to build an administration block where the training is held (having to hire a trainer, who can perhaps only train 5 people at one time and the requirement to buy the training equipment etc) and seeing your person toddle of and sit in the training room and be trained, whilst a rookie member of staff has to cover their post, not only makes training far more interesting (how do you incorporate the staff building with the park decor; balancing the cost of paying for the trainer and the equipment vs the future skills of your member of staff; whilst the rookie covers perhaps the quality of service reduces so you have to balance the person going for training and the poor service guests will receive whilst they are away) it's also more realistic - this, to me, feels like moving the management element forward.
Another example could be stalls where you can win prizes at skill-based games (most theme parks have these - This American Life [episode 433] once did an entire episode dedicated to the staff at a small US amusement park who worked solely on these types of game stalls - and where a significant amount of money is made), where you have to balance the cost of the prize for the likelihood of winning, with guests getting annoyed if they think they've been cheated. A more highly trained staff member might be better at getting guests to play the game and part with their cash etc.
The creative-centric fans have had over 6 months to discuss with the development team how they can improve that area even more; unfortunately, due to the fact that the management side is being shown so late in the game, those who are more focussed on it have less time to provide some input.
I'm still going to play and love the game, but I have the sad feeling of a slightly missed opportunity.
Not to belittle this thread or the people posting in it and try to lighten the mood, I just had an amusing thought about the training of the janitor. How about we have instead of a classroom where they sit and study, the instructor goes along with the novice janitor to show him the correct way to use the broom to make sure he knows which end is which. [haha][haha][haha]
To be honest, I would not worry too much about the management aspects of the game!
It might be true that much of what we have seen so far resembles things we know from older games but we have to keep one thing in mind: the environment to which these concepts are applied is so much more evolved now.
I mean that if you change, for instance, the price of a certain merchandise item guest reactions will be much more complex than they used to. Therefore, more careful price setting might be required for everything you sell. Since the AI is more realistic, I suppose their willingness to pay is also more realistic. There you have it: one P of the Marketing mix is already covered, for example!
Take another P into consideration: Product. You need to design your products (rides) to suit you guests' wants as well as possible. Here you might have to consider the demographic structure of your target group (remember the nice stats from the Livestream?). For you Disney Fans out there: do your Guestology to find out what people will pay for!
And for your shops, too: a younger audience might prefer different food than a family dominated crowd.
Or take a look at operations and optimization: when building a coaster you will have to make sure to do it as efficiently as you can. Do you really need three trains to keep queues short or is one train enough? Since utility pieces have higher operating costs, this might make a difference!
The same is true for the park layout: you need to remember one of the unique aspects of theme park management! Plan the crown flow! If you see that your paths are designed poorly you will have to take countermeasures and improve them. I'd say that's management, too, if you come from an operations standpoint!
And as far as finance goes: most people don't find this particularly interesting so the new loan system should be improvement enough, at least in my opinion.
So, since the guests' brains are so complex, their wants will be, too! That is why managing your park will be more challenging - even if you only had what existed in previous games! [happy]
And here's the bottom line: maximizing your profits, minimizing your costs! How you do that is up to you; I believe Planet Coaster gives us many different ways to achieve our financial goals! Become leading in quality or operate at the lowest costs possible and still attract some guests...
It might be true that much of what we have seen so far resembles things we know from older games but we have to keep one thing in mind: the environment to which these concepts are applied is so much more evolved now.
I mean that if you change, for instance, the price of a certain merchandise item guest reactions will be much more complex than they used to. Therefore, more careful price setting might be required for everything you sell. Since the AI is more realistic, I suppose their willingness to pay is also more realistic. There you have it: one P of the Marketing mix is already covered, for example!
Take another P into consideration: Product. You need to design your products (rides) to suit you guests' wants as well as possible. Here you might have to consider the demographic structure of your target group (remember the nice stats from the Livestream?). For you Disney Fans out there: do your Guestology to find out what people will pay for!
And for your shops, too: a younger audience might prefer different food than a family dominated crowd.
Or take a look at operations and optimization: when building a coaster you will have to make sure to do it as efficiently as you can. Do you really need three trains to keep queues short or is one train enough? Since utility pieces have higher operating costs, this might make a difference!
The same is true for the park layout: you need to remember one of the unique aspects of theme park management! Plan the crown flow! If you see that your paths are designed poorly you will have to take countermeasures and improve them. I'd say that's management, too, if you come from an operations standpoint!
And as far as finance goes: most people don't find this particularly interesting so the new loan system should be improvement enough, at least in my opinion.
So, since the guests' brains are so complex, their wants will be, too! That is why managing your park will be more challenging - even if you only had what existed in previous games! [happy]
And here's the bottom line: maximizing your profits, minimizing your costs! How you do that is up to you; I believe Planet Coaster gives us many different ways to achieve our financial goals! Become leading in quality or operate at the lowest costs possible and still attract some guests...
I haven't played the prison one, but I play Cities. Cities is 95% management. Sure you can pick the layout of your city, but the city itself is generated for you. Your job is to manage the city and keep everything running as smooth as possible. Its the sims job to create and recreate how the actual buildings look.
If PC just had you select themed zones and where to place food/facilities then created the park for you then an in depth management would be key and would make sense. But that isn't how it is designed. Creativity and park creation is the main aspect.
Very well said.
Exactly! I think this game has a lot of things to manage built very cleverly into the game.
Yeah, I feel the same way...
Ok well wow so much reading my head hurts now....
So watched the live stream and well personally I like both management and creative side
So if the game did include a small micro management like prision architect that's fine by me
But i am still thinking ok we are alpha still well pre-beta and it wouldn't actually bother me if frontier had to delay the release of PC I would rather play a polished game and it not get rushed like well one game I will mention RCTW that was poor even when that first came out and haven't played any of it since the new updates.
When I first heard about planet coaster I was actually excited and well when I first saw pictures I thought well RCT3 graphic wise with peep looks and well now I have been playing the game since alpha 2
I am actually impressed how easy the game can be picked up
Like many others has said it'should focused heavily on the creative side right now with minimal management but we still have to remember that it's alpha pre beta frontier are holding their cards close to their chests but for a good reason because I don't think they want anything leaked and then competitor's get hold of it and take it away from them.
Yes I would like to see the management become more than it is but I am just waiting to see what the feature holds with this game.
But one thing I will say is that I think optimisation would be a great help as we build these parks and creations etc the frame rates sometimes do slow a bit a be less heavy on your CPU even a quad core machine struggles
But let's just see what the future holds with PC they may do something that does blow peoples minds even if it's for both management and creative sides
So watched the live stream and well personally I like both management and creative side
So if the game did include a small micro management like prision architect that's fine by me
But i am still thinking ok we are alpha still well pre-beta and it wouldn't actually bother me if frontier had to delay the release of PC I would rather play a polished game and it not get rushed like well one game I will mention RCTW that was poor even when that first came out and haven't played any of it since the new updates.
When I first heard about planet coaster I was actually excited and well when I first saw pictures I thought well RCT3 graphic wise with peep looks and well now I have been playing the game since alpha 2
I am actually impressed how easy the game can be picked up
Like many others has said it'should focused heavily on the creative side right now with minimal management but we still have to remember that it's alpha pre beta frontier are holding their cards close to their chests but for a good reason because I don't think they want anything leaked and then competitor's get hold of it and take it away from them.
Yes I would like to see the management become more than it is but I am just waiting to see what the feature holds with this game.
But one thing I will say is that I think optimisation would be a great help as we build these parks and creations etc the frame rates sometimes do slow a bit a be less heavy on your CPU even a quad core machine struggles
But let's just see what the future holds with PC they may do something that does blow peoples minds even if it's for both management and creative sides
OK, so you realize how popular management games are compared to creativity. That was the context of the discussion, hence my question.
I'm guessing City Skylines is a great example of what's been advocated. Though not as pretty as PC it's got a ton of management aspects to it. I might have to dust that one off and check it out again.
I can't think of one, but I don't play a ton of games so maybe you can. Do you know of a game the has the creativity and creation power of PC and the management aspects of a game like Cities? Management and Creation are both forms of simulation, but I think they need to almost be two different genres. It's nearly impossible to have one game with both in depth management and amazing creativity since it would take way too much time and maybe even make the game too difficult for the "average" player.
Do you know how overwhelming it would be to have to build each individual building in Cities while simultaneously trying to manage everything that you have to manage in order to have a successful city? Keeping up with new builds, repairs, people moving in and out, etc. That sounds terrible, not fun at all...to me at least.
I can see the benefit of maybe a "hardcore" mode of those who are up to the challenge, but then it goes back to my original point. How much work needs to be done and at what cost for what percent of the players? It just might not add up.
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