Coaster Loading and Unloading Needs more options

[Bitter Jeweler]

Multiple stations aren't needed.
Shuttle coasters on the other hand, are.
I'd rather they spend time developing something useful.

I highly doubt they'd be able to do a "switch track" for second stations, and "in-line" second stations are pointless and won't increase throughput.

 

[dantheginga]

No, this is an illusion. At the loading station, peeps are presented with an empty train they can immediately jump on and go. But that train only became available to them after it had already gone through the unloading process at a separate station, which takes the same amount of time regardless of which station it happens at. All the 2 stations do is add a delay between the old customers unloading and the new customers loading, due to the time required to move the train from one station to another.

The OP and I are not talking about stations like X2 where the loading and unloading are separated from one another. We are talking about dual track stations where there are literally two stations that are connected with a switch to the rest of the circuit.

Like Tatsu...

... and AIR/Galactica

... and Superman Ultimate Flight

 

[Bullethead]

The OP and I are not talking about stations like X2 where the loading and unloading are separated from one another. We are talking about dual track stations where there are literally two stations that are connected with a switch to the rest of the circuit.

Right, this was one of the several suggestions in the OP. And as I said earlier, this cannot increase throughput unless the ride doesn't need block sections. If the ride needs block sections, then trains can only leave the station when the next section (usually the lift hill) is clear, regardless of how many parallel loading platforms the station has. The rate at which block sections clear is a function of coaster (or lift) movement speed and the distances between block brakes. The rate of reloading trains has nothing to do with this.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

Like I said, I doubt you will ever see split tracks like that. I bet it will be VERY difficult to program peep pathing, and a split line of coaster travel, and splitting a block section, and calculating excitement ratings.

 

[Alexman]

you can make an unloading only station, but you would have to make a station( duh) with a very low min/max loading time, it may be a bug, but when those times are low, no guest can load into the ride fast enough.

 

[Ramm]

Switches like forks and transfer tables would be difficult I guessbut multiple stations shouldn't be that hard. We have those with transport rides already. You could use the coaster as a transport ride or just add 1 unloading and 1 loading station if you want.

I hope we will get loading at both sides dor wing coasters etc though

 

[DistortAMG]

#1.

#2.
Again, nifty for aesthetics but generally worthless in terms of increased throughput, at least for most types of coasters. No matter how many boarding areas the station has, trains can't leave the station until the block section ahead of them is clear. Therefore, the rate at which trains leave the station will not be any faster than with the single-track station. This sort of thing only increases throughput for rides that don't have or need block sections, like log flumes.

In game that might work different. But in real life they certainly do increase throughput. Especially on rides that have lots of shorter block sections, such as Big Thunder Mountain for example. Where using a single station and doing all the pre dispatch checks simply take too long compared to how quick the block in front clears. Thus two stations are used so that as soon as the next block is clear there is a train ready to go. Also on rides like Air (now Galactica) at Alton Towers, take a bit longer to load than normal rides. So once again the double station brings throughput back up to the level it should / would be at on a single stationed ride with less complex loading.

Oblivion at Alton Towers actually loads two trains at once, one behind another in a single station. Then sends the first train out to the lift hill and the second to the pre lift block. This in fact, when there is enough staff to load two trains, pretty much doubles the throughput as with the right staff, it takes the same amount of time to load and dispatch one train as it does two.

Like I said, I doubt you will ever see split tracks like that. I bet it will be VERY difficult to program peep pathing, and a split line of coaster travel, and splitting a block section, and calculating excitement ratings.

@Bitter Jewler. It would not be that difficult to implement in my opinion it is most simplest form, this is coming from someone that does program. At its simplest level you could just have the same single entry point for both sides of the station that is currently used now for single stationed ride. Just now the guests entering the entry point are split over both stations rather than one. Excitement ratings don't need to be re calculated, its the same ride. Just two stations.

 

[Kickflip]

In game that might work different. But in real life they certainly do increase throughput. Especially on rides that have lots of shorter block sections, such as Big Thunder Mountain for example. Where using a single station and doing all the pre dispatch checks simply take too long compared to how quick the block in front clears. Thus two stations are used so that as soon as the next block is clear there is a train ready to go. Also on rides like Air (now Galactica) at Alton Towers, take a bit longer to load than normal rides. So once again the double station brings throughput back up to the level it should / would be at on a single stationed ride with less complex loading.

Oblivion at Alton Towers actually loads two trains at once, one behind another in a single station. Then sends the first train out to the lift hill and the second to the pre lift block. This in fact, when there is enough staff to load two trains, pretty much doubles the throughput as with the right staff, it takes the same amount of time to load and dispatch one train as it does two.



@Bitter Jewler. It would not be that difficult to implement in my opinion it is most simplest form, this is coming from someone that does program. At its simplest level you could just have the same single entry point for both sides of the station that is currently used now for single stationed ride. Just now the guests entering the entry point are split over both stations rather than one. Excitement ratings don't need to be re calculated, its the same ride. Just two stations.

Then you're suggesting that loading and unloading should be updated to be a several minute process from the currently low 30s process that it is.

Multiple stations doesn't help in this game because unloading and loading is relatively quick.

 

[DistortAMG]

Then you're suggesting that loading and unloading should be updated to be a several minute process from the currently low 30s process that it is.

Multiple stations doesn't help in this game because unloading and loading is relatively quick.

I never suggested that at all. I made that very clear in the very first sentence that it may work different in game. I was stating how and why they work like they do in real life. That's it.

 

[dapullia]

I am seeing more and more parks using the track switch solution. It seems like it would not be that hard if you always forced center platform boarding. That way you have technically 1 station with two lanes. the main thing is that you have to raise your station high enough to allow the queue to go under it. I agree this is usually done where the loading is longer or complex or you have short blocks. I could see where it is possible to design a ride that has short blocks and such so that it works. One thing I don't think is a fair grade is that sitting on the block brakes at the end of the ride still counts against the ride stats. It seems like if your just waiting to unload then people would understand that the ride is over.

 

[BlackShark]

Separate loading and unloading stations would only provide very little benefit in the current game regarding throughput since loading is so ridiculously fast (about 2 seconds) : the 2 seconds gained would be partially lost in the time it takes to accelerate the empty train to station travel speed (contrarily to the real world where loading and unloading both take significant enough amounts of time and the separate platforms with an extra train do provide a throughput boost).
But it still does provide other benefits :

Getting optimum throughput is currently very hard since it requires a precise arrangement of entrance and exits (punishes creativity) and to build the ride with a duration exactly matching a multiple of the station cycle time.
Having separate stations would remove the very painful throughput penalty to using same side loading and unloading, allowing different building designs to be just as viable as the current mandatory through design.
But even if you already have the optimum entrances and exit placement, building a ride with a perfect cycle time is not always possible (or desired) so what actually happens is that you'll generally have to compromise between two non-ideal solutions :
- round the number of trains down leading to times where the station is empty : so you get reduced throughput (you loose the equivalent amount of a partial train)
- round the number of trains up to keep the station busy but leading to systematic train stop over the last block brake section while waiting for the station to clear up resulting in a lower ride rating.
The separate loading and unloading stations provide a 3rd solution where the station is always busy with an extra train and guests not waiting in the block brakes.

An other solution is the single station with platform length of 2 trains. This arrangement is pretty much the same as separate stations but has the advantage of being able to switch dynamically between single platform or separate platform modes depending on ride's behaviour or unexpected delays that might happen in the station (currently, the game does not really have any event like that. The only delay that does happen is the mechanic coming in an blocking the station for an inspection : which happens due to the very poor station animations system currently in the game, so a separate platforms system would probably also hit against this issue and be completely blocked by the mechanic's ride inspection.

The parallel switching platforms station can be used to increase coaster throughput by reducing the station's minimum delay between departures. Throughput increases are obtained if the station operations is the limiting factor.
With the current game's ultra fast station operations, designing a coaster with short enough blocks to accept departures that quickly would be very demanding (less than 20 seconds per block), but definitely possible, especially with LIM/LSM launch coasters.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

I still don't understand this obsession with increasing maximum throughput.

Coasters make money easily.
Load times are faster than most real life counterparts.
Coasters run a realistic number of trains comparative to real life counterparts.
Coasters chew through similar numbers of peeps per hour compared to real life counterparts.

Where is the problem that needs "fixing"?

 

[BlackShark]

Where is the problem that needs "fixing"?

Gameplay needs fixing.
The station time isn't the issue. The issue is how the station operation look like, how they feel, and how we, the players, interact with it that are severely lacking.

There are 2 elements to it :
- the absurd wait while people exit the station.
It sends a false signal to the player that something is not right. It breaks suspension of disbelief and reveals how clunky the game's inner workings are.
It tells us that the system has limitations, for which we are looking to bypass with alternative designs.
Now fixing the stupid waiting animation will solve the feeling of limitation, but cause other issues down the line : such as unrealisticly short station cycle times, so the devs will have to find new gameplay elements to add to the game in order to bring the station cycle time back up to a reasonable level : in fact the cycle time should be slowed down significantly (but the devs need to find a way that feel good : many people, myself included, have suggested the operator should perform a safety restraints check). But that's up to the devs to figure out, and we have to tell them we're not happy about the current condition of the station operations.

- the lack of good options :
This game is all about creativity, it encourages us to build creatively, to use different themes, different arrangements of buildings, different types of coasters, etc... We can build coasters in many different ways, and the game makes many of them viable.
But when we reach station design, we hit a brick wall : if you want efficient operations you basically have only one option. You must build a through station with the exit right in the middle of the platform.
Try building anything else and you are punished by significant throughput decreases. Why does the game propose us with the other options then ? We need a way to make the alternatives work.
For example : give the option of separate loading and unloading platforms in order to make single side stations work.

The parallel tracks dual-station is a completely new gameplay proposition, a new way to increase throughput even further : by building an even bigger station, with more operators and a higher operating expense in order to increase throughput beyond what a regular station is capable of.
The tradeof is logical, and it matches our expectations, but since the base station is so unbalanced in it's current form, implementing a parallel tracks station will require a single track station nerf.
And I'm perfectly OK with that : as long as game shows us a good reason for the nerf.

 

[breezerHOG1]

the operator should perform a safety restraints check

is that really so important? IMO having a staff member walk back and forth next to the cars would be fine, but its not like they will animate the employee to actually check each guests seat, that would be too slow

 

[BlackShark]

is that really so important? IMO having a staff member walk back and forth next to the cars would be fine, but its not like they will animate the employee to actually check each guests seat, that would be too slow

If Frontier fixes the frustrating "wait until the platform everybody has exited the station before starting loading" issue and do not introduce anything to slow down the station cycle, then the station cycle time could be as low as a few seconds, which is absurd. (it's free money with zero effort).

The safety checks is an idea to justify a more reasonable station cycle time.
Whether the operator just walks along the train looking at the seats or actually manually checks them individually depends on whether Frontier adds the necessary gameplay associated with it.

A simple walk would probably bring the cycle time to a point just a little bit longer than the current minimum cycle time.
But if the operator needs to check every seat individually, the extra cycle time provides an opportunity to add gameplay : the base cycle time would shoot up to over a minute and there would be an high incentive to spending extra effort on the station to bring the station cycle time down.

For example you could have the option to hire extra operators (increased wages, a gamble that only pays off if the ride is popular) :
- 1 operator (minimum) : the one guy walks to the back to check the safety restraints + returns to the forward console to start the train (example 1minute cycle time)
- 2 operators : each one checks half of the train, the forward one does one less row to return to the forward console (while the other checks the remaining row) and start the train (example 40 seconds cycle time)
Or you could build large stations with two parallel platforms :
- 3 operators (minimum) : 1 station manager stays at the console to manage the switches and starts the trains + 1 safety operator per platform (example 30 seconds cycle time)
- 5 operators : 1 station manager stays at the console to manage the switches and starts the trains + 2 safety operators per platform doing each half a train (example 20 seconds cycle time)

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

 

[BlackShark]

http://i.imgur.com/0vrstcz.jpg

Ok, not right now then...
How about next month ? [big grin]

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

It's way, way, down on my list of things that are needed.
I'd rather they spend time bringing us shuttle coasters (both reverse lift and launch) and synching stations for dueling coasters.
As well as a bunch of other things.

 

[KSher55]

There is no getting around this.
* Time required for old customers to unload: constant and a wash.
* Time required for new customers to load: constant and a wash.
* Time required to move the train from unloading to loading station: only applicable to separate stations, so this makes this method take longer.

Period. End of story. If you want to increase your throughput, add more cars to your trains and/or decrease the interval between train departures. NOTHING else increases throughput, no matter how you arrange the stations.

Bullethead,

Having worked in the theme park industry and on station design I can tell you that you're actually dead wrong here.

To increase the guest throughput you have to take a look at the total time it takes a vehicle to leave a station - not the time it takes for the same vehicle to leave the station, but basically the overall station interval. Usually, this equation is equivalent to

Track time + unload time + Load Time = TOTAL CYCLE

but there's ways around that.

We'll take 3 examples:

1) Disneyland's Fantasyland Style Rides (Pinocchio, Peter Pan, Snow White's Scary Adventure, and Mister Toad's Wild Ride)

Disneyland utilizes separate unloading/loading stations on these attractions, and by putting a number of cars in between, creates a significant buffer. By making the unload and loading at different locations with a number of cars in between, the station can increase it's throughput. Case in point, if a passenger takes a really long time to unload at the exit of the attraction two or three cars can still load up and enter the attraction without causing a station slow down. This is more efficient, and this station technique is still utilized today (see Winnie the Pooh at Disneyland, or Goofy's Sky School).

This station design changes the total time to LOAD/UNLOAD (whichever is longer) +TRACK TIME = Total Time

2) Disneyland's Dual Station rides (Indiana Jones, California Screamin, or Bug Thunder Mountain Railroad)

Again, here a car can be cycling passengers while the other station is already up and ready to go. In a worst case scenario, one side of the station can again be backed up due to slow passengers while the other station continues loading passengers endlessly. Theoretically, if enough stations were provided side by side, you could always have a train ready to leave the station while another one is heading in - this is the <i>best</i> way to build stations as it reduces your total time the most:

Ideally, TRACK TIME = TOTAL TIME

3) Simultaneous train loading (Pirates of the Caribbean, Splash Mountain, Autopia)

The idea here is similar but more space efficient that the previous two. Basically, since loading and unloading takes so long on these attractions (longer than the block spacing requires) - we batch load/unload reducing the the overall amount of time that it takes for trains to leave the station. This then changes the cycle time to

1/2 LOAD+1/2 UNLOAD + TRACK TIME = TOTAL TIME


Essentially using parallel or sequenced loading/unloading can greatly increase the throughput of your attraction. Yes, additional trains, block breaks, and space would be required, but you will see actual gains on your guest throughput and increase your THRC.

 

[Cueguirre]

I have noticed that the loading and unloading of coasters is unrealistic. I would like to see a couple of additional options here.

1. Unload Only Stations. In RCT3, almost every coaster I built was double stationed. To speed things up, trains would come in and unload at the unload station, advance to a block brakes section ahead of the loading station, then enter the loading station so that you had a continuous flow of trains. This helps capacity and wait times.

I created my profile just so I can say this exact same thing. I love having the ability to streamline exiting and entering the ride seamlessly. It is very unrealistic and time consuming to see people exit (and wait until they leave platform completely) until the next set of riders enter. Every theme-park I have been to has been either an unloading dock and load dock separately, or load and unload happens simultaneously. It would help with the overcrowding of queue lines and also enable extra trains on the track.