Powerplay Whatever happened to the Powerplay Open only Proposal (POOP) ?

[Agony_Aunt]

Ok so... As much we can solve (even if it wouldn't be "the" solution) 5C by making people play in Open Only you could say that ganking could be solved by making people who don't wanna be ganked play in private or solo.

Hey wait: this is what already happen! So modes are not equal!

Alternately, make PP only playable on PG/solo so there can be no ganking in PP as well

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Alternately, make PP only playable on PG/solo so there can be no ganking in PP as well

But being Powerplay "consensual PvP" there's no ganking at all theoretically, because ganiking is an unwanted PvP interaction.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

At least we're talking about Powerplay, you and AgonyAunt have clearly not a clue of what you're talking about.

I don't know about Jockey's knowledge of PP, but i know mine, and i believe its enough to support the statements i'm making.

As noted, i'm only suggesting everyone do 5C to get a reaction from FD. I'm not suggesting its good play or exactly what impact it will have, but you "expert" PPers say 5Cing is bad, it causes major problems for powers, so even if i knew zero about PP, i can still make that suggestion.

On other things i've said about PP, i believe they are well within the scope of what I do know about PP, and if you think you can find something wrong with my opinions there, you can discuss.

What i will totally dismiss is any suggestion that anyone should not be involved in this thread because they don't understand all the details of PP. As long as they are commenting within the scope of their knowledge, there there should be no problem.

Let's turn it around. How many people who have supported the proposition have you challenged over their knowledge of PP? I think you don't need to answer that. Zero. Why? Because they agree with you, so even if the poster has absoloutely no knowledge of PP, you accept their opinion, because it matches your own. Ok, this is normal, its not expected, but its worth considering right?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

But being Powerplay "consensual PvP" there's no ganking at all theoretically, because ganiking is an unwanted PvP interaction.

You thinking ganking isn't possible in a consensual environment? That's interesting.... i'm not sure you have enough knowledge of what ganking is to be involved in this discussion

Don't confuse ganking with griefing. You can still do a good gank even if everyone involved agrees to it.

 

[Jockey79]

Here we go again with the peacocking.

Voronwe, considering you keep on PPOO isn't about 5C and telling people to stop talking about 5C, you seem awfully keen to contradict yourself and make it all about 5C - oh that's right, you don't want your flawed points to be exposed in the debate.

RN you know better than this.

You both want to proclaim you're smarter than everyone while missing the blindingly obvious.
Open Only does not solve 5C, all it does is change how people 5C.
This was explained in detail in the Focused Feedback thread by people who love doing 5C.
And also in various other places, I'm sure you're smart enough to find them on your own.

You "smart" fellas understand this right... opps, clearly you don't (too "smart" for your own good maybe?)

There is a bigger picture to ED than PP and while PP is connected to the bigger picture, there are ways to sabotage PP from any mode.
Which is why I repeatedly said, PP needs to be its own mode, disconnected from the main game like CQC.
However, that will bring in a new set of problems.

You guys need to step back and actually look at the problems properly.
Open Only solves nothing, but it will upset people who like PP and genuinely play it from other modes.
So that would only upset the wider player base with nothing to gain.

Surprised I'm having to explain these simple concepts to such "intelligent" people, again.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The thread for the past few days has been a laugh once you realise why they are posting.

It's all about "the math" remember.... aka, now they are on the receiving end of their own tactics they don't like it.
We used to see it on the old forums, those demanding "Open Only" in the PP section were the ones on the receiving end of 5C.
Weird how those names were not so bothered when it was them doing it. Swings and Roundabouts I guess

Again, look at the date on the "SCRAP" post. It's taken how long before it is being used as an excuse to remove content from people?
This is why Frontier are dragging their heels on PP. Those complaining now, we not so bothered when they were winning using those tactics back then.

90s is right though, 5C shouldn't be a thing. Some of us told FDev that back at the start and said it would be Power Plays undoing.

Problem is, how do you deal with 5Cing? Its a tricky one. How do you stop people "helping" in a negative way, without punishing those who are just looking to help but are clueless as to the politics/leadership (or just don't want to follow the rules)? I'm sure FD have some ideas, i get the impression some of their proposals cover this (i'm not an expert on the proposed mechanics), but i'm sure they come with their own set of issues.

Perhaps one solution is to change powers to be like squadrons, so there is official leadership with proper rosters and ranks, but that gives me the shivers.

 

[Jockey79]

I don't know about Jockey's knowledge of PP...

I'm one of those nasty people who when they play a game, play to win.
I don't do "nice" and I play within the rules laid out before me.
5C is well within the rules.

Is it nice? Nope.
Is it fair? Yes, we can all do it.
Is it a nasty way to play? Of course.

But it's a game and I want to win.
I don't cheat, but I play to the extreme.

Which is why I no longer PP.
ED is my game to relax in, not go all out warfare.

So I know plenty, more than our resident "experts" it seems.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

I don't know about Jockey's knowledge of PP, but i know mine, and i believe its enough to support the statements i'm making.

Well actually never did that. You've got to have some good point to discuss about. The "BUUU YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE THE GAME OPEN!1!!1!" argument is not a good one. In fact, if you notice I had some proficient exchange in opinions with other people with different opinions.
Right now I'm just telling you to not try to talk about things you don't understand in a technical way. So, let's talk about what your concerns are.

Correct me if I'm wrong, basically your concern is that an Open Only (or even a dedicated mode Powerplay, something that you proposed yourself but right now seems to be out of the picture, was it just a bluff gone wrong, maybe?) would bring more Open Only features to Elite Dangerous.
My opinion about that is that I can't find it possible, consequencially this kind of fear is unreasonable: the only way that this could happen is if this "new Open Only/Dedicated Mode only Powerplay" would be extremly succesful, which is something even you exclude categorically.

This was explained in detail in the Focused Feedback thread by people who love doing 5C.

Ok you've got to quote these 5C-lovers. Again: can you please tell me what you think 5C is? Every time you speak about 5C you really show how little you know about that.

5C is well within the rules.

Is it nice? Nope.
Is it fair? Yes, we can all do it.
Is it a nasty way to play? Of course.

Wow so you admit you are a 5Cer?

 

[Jockey79]

Problem is, how do you deal with 5Cing? Its a tricky one. How do you stop people "helping" in a negative way, without punishing those who are just looking to help but are clueless as to the politics/leadership (or just don't want to follow the rules)? I'm sure FD have some ideas, i get the impression some of their proposals cover this (i'm not an expert on the proposed mechanics), but i'm sure they come with their own set of issues.

Perhaps one solution is to change powers to be like squadrons, so there is official leadership with proper rosters and ranks, but that gives me the shivers.

You'll never truly stamp it out. Every game has ways of pushing the boundaries of decent play.
What we should be looking at are the ones that are acceptable to the community and limiting their effect on the game.

So at least those who want to play that way can, without being too overpowered.

But while PP is connected to the main game, there will always be ways to troll / subvert and mess with Powers.
So even if FD went with Open Only, we are no further along unless they disconnect it from the BGS completely.
Which tbh, makes it rather pointless then.

Currently, PP is dead weight and just an excuse for some to folks to "grief" others, aka "opps, I thought you had Ashlings merits on you" (even though you're not aligned to anyone, hmm)

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Currently, PP is dead weight and just an excuse for some to folks to "grief" others, aka "opps, I thought you had Ashlings merits on you" (even though you're not aligned to anyone, hmm)

You're such a great Powerplayer that you don't even know her name.
It's Aisling, like the irish name.

You know what I think?
I think that you're just here faking to be in any way aware of what powerplay is, or 5C works. You have just this vague idea that 5C is not accepted and now you even bluff to be one.

Ok let's try you out and see if you are all smoke or there's some actual meat in what you're saying.

Tell me a proficient way to 5C another Power in case of a scrap attempt.

You told you're 5C, that you know the game. So let's try this out! I'm curious now.

Or maybe... you don't know what you're talking about and you're just badly trying to troll people making yourself ridiculous. Even trying childish things like the use of "smart" to say stupid (oh no, I'm so hurt by this! My chest huuuurts!).

Nobody is calling you names by the way. It's always been said that you're ignorant about Powerplay rules. As I'm ignorant about rocketscience, for what it's worth. But I'm not trying to talk about rocketscience with a rocketscientist. You are trying to talk about Powerplay with powerplayers, and most importantly you're trying to hide your ignorance in semantics.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Problem is, how do you deal with 5Cing? Its a tricky one. How do you stop people "helping" in a negative way, without punishing those who are just looking to help but are clueless as to the politics/leadership (or just don't want to follow the rules)? I'm sure FD have some ideas, i get the impression some of their proposals cover this (i'm not an expert on the proposed mechanics), but i'm sure they come with their own set of issues.

Perhaps one solution is to change powers to be like squadrons, so there is official leadership with proper rosters and ranks, but that gives me the shivers.

• Get rid of overhead
• Closer Control Systems have priority on exploited overlapping systems
• higher upkeeps the farther to the headquarters
• competitive triggers with single system turmoils to make it les stagnant

Of course it's my proposal, but as I told before 5C is a totally different matter in this discussion, at least by me. I only defend Open Only (or Dedicated Mode Only) Powerplay because of the gameplay. I think it's better if we all keep talking about that. Especially people who don't know what 5C is.

 

[Jockey79]

Ok you've got to quote these 5C-lovers. Again: can you please tell me what you think 5C is? Every time you speak about 5C you really show how little you know about that.

Wow so you admit you are a 5Cer?

Love the contractions again.

Yes, in every game I've ever played I play to win.
I have tried every over the top, extreme way of playing Elite.

Can I make insane credits, sure can. Smuggling, Passengers, external trade websites etc...
Did my Imperial rank jump super fast, certainly did. (Didn't touch Fed until after the changes and took my time with that one)
Combat Rank, turret Anaconda in CZs. Trade Rank, done while getting credits above.
Power Play I got some shiny toys and walked away. As I said, from the start I saw its flaws and pointed them out, so apart from module shopping I don't see the point in being aligned.

Everything I have done was within the rules.
Some of it was damn dull, I've fallen asleep at my pc board flipping for various reasons.
Loved A-B-A trading watching Netflix. Let my daughter fly my Anaconda in CZs to earn my rank while I cooked dinner.

I know lots about every aspect of the game, but feel free to stroke your own ego by constantly insulting me.
It doesn't change a thing and it's rather amusing.

Because if you actually wanted to fix PP properly. You'd know why Open Only would fail at doing it (or at least go and re-read the Focused Feedback thread, as you've been around long enough to have read it when it came out - so you should know this already)

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Because if you actually wanted to fix PP properly. You'd know why Open Only would fail at doing it (or at least go and re-read the Focused Feedback thread, as you've been around long enough to have read it when it came out - so you should know this already)

Mmm I think you've got great issues in reading what people write.

• Get rid of overhead
• Closer Control Systems have priority on exploited overlapping systems
• higher upkeeps the farther to the headquarters
• competitive triggers with single system turmoils to make it les stagnant

Of course it's my proposal, but as I told before 5C is a totally different matter in this discussion, at least by me. I only defend Open Only (or Dedicated Mode Only) Powerplay because of the gameplay. I think it's better if we all keep talking about that. Especially people who don't know what 5C is.

Again: I'm not defending Open Only as a measure to get rid of 5C completely. I'm discussing about Open Only (or dedicated mode) Powerplay in a gameplay point of view.

But you know what? You still don't answer to prove me wrong about how you're bluffing about how 5C works. Why to claim differently? Don't you trust your very own opinions that much so you have to lie about what you know and what you don't know, to enforce your position?

 

[Jockey79]

You're such a great Powerplayer that you don't even know her name.
It's Aisling, like the irish name.

LOL

So desperate you resort to me making a typo as your defence.

Classic, I'm screenshotting this

Nobody is calling you names by the way.

Not just me, anyone who disagrees with you, you've insulted their intelligence constantly.
While ignoring their valid discussion points. Peacocking isn't helping you, it's just showing people your true colours

Sorry, but smart people are not that dismissive. You don't address a point by claiming you know more (which you don't).
You've not yet once given a real reason for Open Only. And clearly don't understand that 5C is still doable under Open Only.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Peacocking isn't helping you, it's just showing people your true colours

And apparently it's a lot of colours! :*

Sorry, but smart people are not that dismissive. You don't address a point by claiming you know more (which you don't).

Still waiting to be proved wrong about that. And you're desperately sticking to the fact that I think Open Only would solve the 5C problem, which I didn't claim (I only said it would help, that's different).
So we were talking about 5C. How does it work, again?

 

[Rubbernuke]

Here we go again with the peacocking.

Or having run Powerplay Reddits, organised Powers, did inter Power diplomacy, was part of the Powerplay / FdEv group I actually have deep, first hand knowledge of the issues? Voronwe is one of the principals who organises the Kumo and is the same.

RN you know better than this.

You both want to proclaim you're smarter than everyone while missing the blindingly obvious.
Open Only does not solve 5C, all it does is change how people 5C.
This was explained in detail in the Focused Feedback thread by people who love doing 5C.
And also in various other places, I'm sure you're smart enough to find them on your own.

And I told you that Open only is part of the anti-5C measures. Part. It does not do it alone as it has several other mathematical feature tweaks to act with it.

I have consistently said Open is more about making PP stand apart from a resurgent BGS- otherwise, why play an inferior copy that costs you credits to play?

There is a bigger picture to ED than PP and while PP is connected to the bigger picture, there are ways to sabotage PP from any mode.

You mean, BGS manipulation? In Sandros proposal the BGS footprint is limited to control systems only. This is the best compromise between the two systems possible without a redesign.

You guys need to step back and actually look at the problems properly.
Open Only solves nothing, but it will upset people who like PP and genuinely play it from other modes.
So that would only upset the wider player base with nothing to gain.

Powerplay is an inferior BGS clone now. It has no real reason to exist in the game. Its core experiences are inferior versions of the new BGS features. CZs? Old. Missions? Haul or shoot. Megaships? No. Signal sources? No. Money? No. Other than deletion the only other cheap way to make it actually different is to make it Open, and let people fight in an almost 1:1 integrated tactical way that is impossible otherwise.

FD need to take a risk with Open Powerplay, because if they don't with the dev time on offer it will simply remain a grind race, and keep it unpopular.

So that would only upset the wider player base with nothing to gain

As FD pointed out, this would be for Powerplay only- this is slippery slope NIMBYism again.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Problem is, how do you deal with 5Cing? Its a tricky one. How do you stop people "helping" in a negative way, without punishing those who are just looking to help but are clueless as to the politics/leadership (or just don't want to follow the rules)? I'm sure FD have some ideas, i get the impression some of their proposals cover this (i'm not an expert on the proposed mechanics), but i'm sure they come with their own set of issues.

Perhaps one solution is to change powers to be like squadrons, so there is official leadership with proper rosters and ranks, but that gives me the shivers.

The new features weight bad systems making them proportionately harder to prepare compared to good +ve CC systems. So a system that costs -130 CC takes much more preparation than a system that nets you +30 CC.

Another is the ability to vote off bad systems, and vote on the prep list.

 

[Rubbernuke]

ED is my game to relax in, not go all out warfare.

So why do you (or did) sign up to a feature that is about conflict?

 

[Rubbernuke]

You've not yet once given a real reason for Open Only. And clearly don't understand that 5C is still doable under Open Only.

This thread and others like it are full of gameplay possibilities that Open enables, explicitly laid out for you.

Plus, as we keep on trying to say Open is part of the 5C measures- it won't do it on its own, but with veto rules, cycle split, withdrawal, profitability modifiers and Open they all act together. Its a neat package, with Open doing double duty at a low level.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The new features weight bad systems making them proportionately harder to prepare compared to good +ve CC systems. So a system that costs -130 CC takes much more preparation than a system that nets you +30 CC.

Another is the ability to vote off bad systems, and vote on the prep list.

That's a nice step, will make the work of 5Cing harder. Can you think of any negative consequences though for supporters? For example, if you really want to go into that region to make gains further along and this is the most direct route?