General / Off-Topic Star Wars Episode IX ... Spoilers In This Thread (You have been warned) Including the title ...

Kids movies are darker in general now than they were back in the 70's & 80's. Being willing to stick to everyone dies in Rogue One was a good move and for me was quite similar to Empire, my favorite of the recent ones. Darth Vader was properly telekinetic psycho at the end as well, which is a very convincing way for sith to fight.

Thing is the arguments that the stories and dialogue have taken a nose dive because "Disney" doesn't hold. George Lucas makes good films (mostly) but his dialogue always sucked and all the Star Wars films have huge plot holes.

Quick example in Empire they fly through the Imperial fleet to get away during the Hoth evacuation for no discernable reason (as parodied in family Guy). Makes it more exciting but its very daft, then they go for a space walk wearing mouth/nose masks to shoot things with wings living inside a big worm with its mouth open to vacuum.

Nostalgia goggles are a thing.

The devil is in the details. George Lucas had very little to do with the dialogue and much of the post filming production of the original trilogy. His then wife (Marcia Lucas) helped him with nearly all the dialogue (and a bunch of post editing), as did the actors on set. The credited directors for all the original films (whom were all very competent directors, with plenty of real world experience) certainly had a huge hand in guiding Georges vision and delivery.

Now the prequels, that was ALL George. He had surrounded himself with yes-men (and women) and convinced himself of his greatness due to the vast wealth he had accrued on the back of the success of the original films. Even his arty earlier stuff like THX (that i personally rather like) he had proper outside help (Marica again for some of the dialogue etc), and American Graffiti was being looked over by the Coppla and Kurtz (so seriously good film people).

A great idea's guy and someone with a vision and understanding of great film (his admiration of Akira Kurosawa a big step in what guided his thinking around Star Wars etc), but terrible at dialogue (prequels as exhibit A) and by all accounts not a great on-set director (Actors find it hard to pull the emotion from his directing and understand exactly what he wants and they should be doing).

Now don't get me wrong, i'm a bigger fan of his than say Spielberg, but the difference in quality from those original Star Wars films vs the prequels is telling.

Disney just does not understand the Star Wars of the original era. It is much more in tune with the prequels and mostly because they grossed more at the box office (modern films do this often, not because films are better but because they are more common and people more numerous to see them) so probably got the attention of the accountants the most.

The examples you give of poor stuff in Empire are really non-issues, not on the scale of the constant disasters (film wise) that are the prequels or 90% of the new Disney era stuff. I guess until we get to experience a planet blockade it is hard to tell if a film depiction is real enough or not? Would an ion cannon be enough to knock the blockading ship out long enough for ships to escape? And maybe deep enough inside a huge creature living inside an asteroid there would be pressure and an atmosphere of sorts, we have to find one to be sure?

But terrible stories, told badly due to modern era films fascination with action and explosions and jump scare thrills over building characters and plot, that stuff is so in your face as to be unmissable. Nostalgia is often misused in this kind of discussion.

I watched a bunch of Star Wars films recently (as many as i could stomach in relation to the prequels and Disney stuff) and those originals hold water where all the other leak everywhere. We could do a detailed blow by blow, scene by scene analysis, but that takes time and really you just need to see the Redletter Media stuff on the prequels to understand how it works in this discussion. But no it was not (is not, nor ever has been) nostalgia that makes me love the original films over everything since, nor was it an 'age' thing. They are just much better films in all aspects baring the improved special effects that is normal for improved technology now vs back in the 70's and 80's.

Here is the first batch on the first prequel:


And you can look through the playlists of theirs to see episode II and III and some of the Disney films before they lost interest.

Also the Hackfraudmedia guy (a 'tribute' channel to Redletter media in some ways) does some good stuff on the new Disney stuff:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N0_GdI8TWE


Why watch some youtube channel? To help you understand why people like myself dislike the nostalgia jibe, why we consider Star Wars post the originals so disappointing and why many Star Wars fans now no longer have as much interest in the franchise.

If you don't care to understand that, then just say so and i can save myself some time :)

Also if you simply don't care about Star Wars as maybe as much as you once did (so are content to see it dragged through the Disney mire) then please also mention it. I have a passion about Star Wars, and it still (annoyingly) matters to me, and if you had shown me where we are now like a year after Jedi (RotJ) i would have laughed you out the room as an impostor from the future, no way in hell could they have screwed up the franchise as bad as it is, but they did and will carry on doing so while we support that vandalism with our money ;)
 
Last edited:
Just do a Star Wars binge sometime. Watch them all (as much as you can manage) and see what you take from that. I will offer you my sympathies now for re-living Jar-Jar-Binks from episode I and the 'love scenes' dialogue from episode II (or was it III).

Also recommended viewing (for any Star Wars fan) is 'The people vs George Lucas', or this interview about it with the redletter media folk:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU30obwiqvA
 
Maybe the voice was Jar Jar the Sith.
I want to start a theory that C3P0 is a Sith Lord .... don't laugh (no, DO laugh :D ) think about it, he tried to stop R2D2 getting in the escape pod "You're not allowed in there" tried to kill Luke, Leia, Han and Chewie in the trash compacter "Oh they're dying" and then when Luke's going "we're safe you did it" C3P0 says "Curse my metal body I wasn't quick enough" .... and so on, always bullying R2D2 and trying to stop him, in ROTJ he didn't want to go into Jabba's palace to rescue Leia, Lando, Han and Chewie (he taps lightly on the door "no-one's in, let's go") ... even trying to kill Jedi in Ep II "Die Jedi dogs!"

C3P0 IS a Sith Lord
 
Last edited:
I was typically underwhelmed by the trailer after the bad taste of the TLJ and the character destruction of Luke. The title , imo, was pandering & dumb. Like a motivation of the title was due to the current sad state of the franchise and desperation rather than serving the story itself. Skywalker's "rise" was already covered in ANH , continued in the OT, and arguably the first two prequels for the earlier Skywalker, Anakin.
 
Last edited:
The Rise of the Mary Sue....

I know this has got some merit (as a film thing and plot device) but i have to refute it due to the distraction it causes to the 'real' issues Star Wars has had since the original films. To put it another way, you can create perfectly good films with leading ladies AS LONG AS THE SCRIPT IS GOOD AND THE DIRECTOR KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING (and is able to do it without too much interference).

As for Mary Sue-ism with Rey, sure you can put that label on her but that is only because the films have been so awful at character building (ie they are not designed to build any) and only focused on the short attention span action pay out, that all there is really left of Rey is rather Mary Sue-ish.

Leia was a properly fleshed out female character (sure not the main heroine of the film like Rey (or Luke) is) whom we 'got' and understood the motivations for perfectly. Good solid female characters are not why modern Star Wars sucks.

It is a subject that both annoys me (the man-baby anti-women rage stuff) but at the same time gives Disney enough of a bloody nose (as they deserve for the tripe they have made) that i can't out right discard it. Mary Sue does hold weight as a criticism when you have little else of a character to work with.

Still was Superman a 'Mary Sue'? Or any raft of strong impossible to lose male super hero (and we have many to chose from). Where was all the complaints when it was a male hero being all powerful? So for me in general this line of argument just distracts from the real issues of Disney Star Wars (and many other franchises these days):

1. Terrible scripts, badly written, poorly thought out.
2. Bad Direction and Directors probably out of their depth vs the power of the studio they are working for.
3. A film public happy to gobble up any old junk, and go back for more.

So step back from the women-hate for a moment and understand the three points above, because if 'we' can fix those we can have great films again. With Star Wars (and Star Trek) i'm all over point three, i just don't support their junk with my hard earned money. Maybe if enough people did that then over time the other two issues would resolve themselves?
 
Last edited:
Star Wars for me consits of only 3 films those being the originals. It was a wee seven year old who first saw A New Hope and forever had his eyes opened to the wonders of the Sci Fi genrodra.

Now as I near fity I gringe a bit (ok a hell of a lot) when I see what has become of the whole SW universe in all media types.
 
I know this has got some merit (as a film thing and plot device) but i have to refute it due to the distraction it causes to the 'real' issues Star Wars has had since the original films. To put it another way, you can create perfectly good films with leading ladies AS LONG AS THE SCRIPT IS GOOD AND THE DIRECTOR KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING (and is able to do it without too much interference).

As for Mary Sue-ism with Rey, sure you can put that label on her but that is only because the films have been so awful at character building (ie they are not designed to build any) and only focused on the short attention span action pay out, that all there is really left of Rey is rather Mary Sue-ish.

Leia was a properly fleshed out female character (sure not the main heroine of the film like Rey (or Luke) is) whom we 'got' and understood the motivations for perfectly. Good solid female characters are not why modern Star Wars sucks.

It is a subject that both annoys me (the man-baby anti-women rage stuff) but at the same time gives Disney enough of a bloody nose (as they deserve for the tripe they have made) that i can't out right discard it. Mary Sue does hold weight as a criticism when you have little else of a character to work with.

Still was Superman a 'Mary Sue'? Or any raft of strong impossible to lose male super hero (and we have many to chose from). Where was all the complaints when it was a male hero being all powerful? So for me in general this line of argument just distracts from the real issues of Disney Star Wars (and many other franchises these days):

1. Terrible scripts, badly written, poorly thought out.
2. Bad Direction and Directors probably out of their depth vs the power of the studio they are working for.
3. A film public happy to gobble up any old junk, and go back for more.

So step back from the women-hate for a moment and understand the three points above, because if 'we' can fix those we can have great films again. With Star Wars (and Star Trek) i'm all over point three, i just don't support their junk with my hard earned money. Maybe if enough people did that then over time the other two issues would resolve themselves?

The mary sue thing does come across simply as "no gurls aloud" which is such a weak argument it tends to degrade actual criticism.

1. Terrible scripts, badly written, poorly thought out.

You can tempt big name "talent" in with freedom to do your own thing, makes for inconsistent story arcs but the big name makes money. The subsequent mistakes like Batman killing people just jars with the fans, non-fans don't notice.

2. Bad Direction and Directors probably out of their depth vs the power of the studio they are working for.

You get cheaper directors that way who don't dare stand up to the studio, saves money easier to control.

3. A film public happy to gobble up any old junk, and go back for more.

Again catering to the mass-market for the dosh.

Its the bottom line money that's doing it.
 
The Mary Sue criticism with Rey is not because she's a woman. Wonder Woman never had that thrown at it, and Wonder Woman has a relatively short progress montage at the start of the film to set up Diana Prince as Wonder Woman, so that she's basically at her peak from the near start of the film.
It irks me when people criticise those who criticise these films trying to paint critics as women-haters .... no, it's not because they are women. No-one had an issue with Ripley or Lara and a huge list of films with female leads. It's the bad character development. Captain Marvel had the same criticism thrown at it, and to be fair Brie Larsen didn't help matters (but that's a whole other debate best left for locked threads).

Rey could things from her first film, that Luke took three films to get the hang of. For example, at the start of Empire Strikes Back, Luke struggles to pull his lightsaber to him .... Rey did it in Force Awakens with no effort, no training and never having done it before. That's just one example, there are others.

And Superman has had the mary sue criticism for decades, it's why they (DC) made him weak to Kyptonite.
 
Last edited:
The Mary Sue criticism with Rey is not because she's a woman. Wonder Woman never had that thrown at it, and Wonder Woman has a relatively short progress montage at the start of the film to set up Diana Prince as Wonder Woman, so that she's basically at her peak from the near start of the film.
It irks me when people criticise those who criticise these films trying to paint critics as women-haters .... no, it's not because they are women. No-one had an issue with Ripley or Lara and a huge list of films with female leads. It's the bad character development. Captain Marvel had the same criticism thrown at it, and to be fair Brie Larsen didn't help matters (but that's a whole other debate best left for locked threads).

Rey could things from her first film, that Luke took three films to get the hang of. For example, at the start of Empire Strikes Back, Luke struggles to pull his lightsaber to him .... Rey did it in Force Awakens with no effort, no training and never having done it before. That's just one example, there are others.

And Superman has had the mary sue criticism for decades, it's why they (DC) made him weak to Kyptonite.

That's not how it comes across though, especially when its inserted into every film discussion irrespective of relevance and coupled with "Gah SJW's". Not everyone thinks there's a culture war going on they are just trying to chat about movies.
 
I feel kind of a bad for new generation of SW fans that will grow up on those long soulless toy commercials instead of experiencing the same magic that I did watching the very first original 3 Star Wars movies. Hey, even Episode I is in my opinion so much more enjoyable and made by a person who cared at least in a 10% about the project. Getting old and grumpy by a day I know...
 
I feel kind of a bad for new generation of SW fans that will grow up on those long soulless toy commercials instead of experiencing the same magic that I did watching the very first original 3 Star Wars movies. Hey, even Episode I is in my opinion so much more enjoyable and made by a person who cared at least in a 10% about the project. Getting old and grumpy by a day I know...

I have a nephew who's favorite star wars film is attack of the clones, due to the age he was when he saw it. Mines Empire as I was the same age at the time that released.

Young enough not to see the holes old enough to thoroughly enjoy it. The target age according to Lucas himself is 12 IIRC.
 

Goose4291

Banned
I know this has got some merit (as a film thing and plot device) but i have to refute it due to the distraction it causes to the 'real' issues Star Wars has had since the original films. To put it another way, you can create perfectly good films with leading ladies AS LONG AS THE SCRIPT IS GOOD AND THE DIRECTOR KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING (and is able to do it without too much interference).

As for Mary Sue-ism with Rey, sure you can put that label on her but that is only because the films have been so awful at character building (ie they are not designed to build any) and only focused on the short attention span action pay out, that all there is really left of Rey is rather Mary Sue-ish.

Leia was a properly fleshed out female character (sure not the main heroine of the film like Rey (or Luke) is) whom we 'got' and understood the motivations for perfectly. Good solid female characters are not why modern Star Wars sucks.

It is a subject that both annoys me (the man-baby anti-women rage stuff) but at the same time gives Disney enough of a bloody nose (as they deserve for the tripe they have made) that i can't out right discard it. Mary Sue does hold weight as a criticism when you have little else of a character to work with.

Still was Superman a 'Mary Sue'? Or any raft of strong impossible to lose male super hero (and we have many to chose from). Where was all the complaints when it was a male hero being all powerful? So for me in general this line of argument just distracts from the real issues of Disney Star Wars (and many other franchises these days):

1. Terrible scripts, badly written, poorly thought out.
2. Bad Direction and Directors probably out of their depth vs the power of the studio they are working for.
3. A film public happy to gobble up any old junk, and go back for more.

So step back from the women-hate for a moment and understand the three points above, because if 'we' can fix those we can have great films again. With Star Wars (and Star Trek) i'm all over point three, i just don't support their junk with my hard earned money. Maybe if enough people did that then over time the other two issues would resolve themselves?

The problem is (in my experience) that detractors get put into the 'ist' of the month box, as an easy way to shut down their opinions. Which is something studios have latched onto the explain away failures, thinking somehow that it'll make their movies into some social-justice championing cult classic.

For example, I'm not a massive fan of superhero movies, but my wife is, as are her friends. So I end up going to

Every.
Single.
Damn.
One.

And have to contend with massive in-depth post movie analysis over a few beers. Any attempt at negativity is immediately shut down by the more passionate ones as follows (note: Obvious paraphrasing):

Black Panther:
"I didn't like it. It felt long, lazily written and confusing."
"You're just saying that because you don't like the idea of a black super hero movie."

Cpt Marvel
"It was okay, but it's not as great as you're all making out."
"You just don't like strong female characters."

Wonder Woman
"It was good, but setting it in WWI really didn't gel for me. The idea of a greek demi-god forearm smashing scared teenage german conscripts in the grid doesn't have the same appeal to me as say, captain america jamming his shield into the grid of a bunch of super-nazis"
"So what you're saying is, its okay when a white boy does it, but you don't like an arabic girl doing it? You're such a hater."
 
The problem is (in my experience) that detractors get put into the 'ist' of the month box, as an easy way to shut down their opinions. Which is something studios have latched onto the explain away failures, thinking somehow that it'll make their movies into some social-justice championing cult classic.

For example, I'm not a massive fan of superhero movies, but my wife is, as are her friends. So I end up going to

Every.
Single.
Damn.
One.

And have to contend with massive in-depth post movie analysis over a few beers. Any attempt at negativity is immediately shut down by the more passionate ones as follows (note: Obvious paraphrasing):

Black Panther:
"I didn't like it. It felt long, lazily written and confusing."
"You're just saying that because you don't like the idea of a black super hero movie."

Cpt Marvel
"It was okay, but it's not as great as you're all making out."
"You just don't like strong female characters."

Wonder Woman
"It was good, but setting it in WWI really didn't gel for me. The idea of a greek demi-god forearm smashing scared teenage german conscripts in the grid doesn't have the same appeal to me as say, captain america jamming his shield into the grid of a bunch of super-nazis"
"So what you're saying is, its okay when a white boy does it, but you don't like an arabic girl doing it? You're such a hater."

That's fair but only if the arguments being made are actually proper arguments that are well articulated. Which isn't usually the case when the Mary Sue'ers show up as they just complain about girls anyone who disagrees and get conspirational and ranty.
 
That's fair but only if the arguments being made are actually proper arguments that are well articulated. Which isn't usually the case when the Mary Sue'ers show up as they just complain about girls anyone who disagrees and get conspirational and ranty.
ahem .... "That's not how it comes across though, especially when its inserted into every film discussion irrespective of relevance and coupled with "Gah SJW's". Not everyone thinks there's a culture war going on they are just trying to chat about movies. "
You do realise you've just done the very thing you said with "that's not how it comes across", that IS how it comes across, and you just showed it.
What am I talking about?
"Rey is a Mary Sue type character, she has no development, she just came into the story and suddenly she has all her powers"
"You just hate films with female leads"
"I do not"
"Yes, you do"
"No, I liked Aliens and Tomb Raider and Underworld and Wonder Woman ...."

Sounds very much to me like both sides are guilty of the same thing, while denying they are the ones at fault and it's the other side who started it.

I'm not taking sides.
Do I think Rey is OP? A bit yes.
Do I like the two films Rey's been in so far? Yes I bought them on Google Play.
Will I watch and buy the next Star Wars film? Yes.
Did I buy Rogue One? Yes.
Did I buy Solo (btw a male lead)? No, I wasn't as keen on that film, I felt they crammed in too many references which they could have spread out over a trilogy.
Does that mean I hate female leads? No, I don't think it does.
 
Top Bottom