General / Off-Topic Star Wars Episode IX ... Spoilers In This Thread (You have been warned) Including the title ...

Rey's character and Daisy Ridley herself are pretty lovable. Her being slightly overpowered in the context of the general zaniness comprising the star wars mythos is no big deal, and personally I do think her background prior to the beginning of the new trilogy is satisfactory to launch her character arc where we come into the story.

Its everything else that I have a problem with.
 
Where was all the complaints when it was a male hero being all powerful?

I know I'm not alone in thinking that Superman was generally a crappy character, mostly because his extreme level of power left only a few ways in which he could be opposed, most of which had to take advantage of his utter unwillingness to do the smart thing rather than the holier-than-thou thing.
 
ahem .... "That's not how it comes across though, especially when its inserted into every film discussion irrespective of relevance and coupled with "Gah SJW's". Not everyone thinks there's a culture war going on they are just trying to chat about movies. "
You do realise you've just done the very thing you said with "that's not how it comes across", that IS how it comes across, and you just showed it.
What am I talking about?
"Rey is a Mary Sue type character, she has no development, she just came into the story and suddenly she has all her powers"
"You just hate films with female leads"
"I do not"
"Yes, you do"
"No, I liked Aliens and Tomb Raider and Underworld and Wonder Woman ...."

Sounds very much to me like both sides are guilty of the same thing, while denying they are the ones at fault and it's the other side who started it.

I'm not taking sides.
Do I think Rey is OP? A bit yes.
Do I like the two films Rey's been in so far? Yes I bought them on Google Play.
Will I watch and buy the next Star Wars film? Yes.
Did I buy Rogue One? Yes.
Did I buy Solo (btw a male lead)? No, I wasn't as keen on that film, I felt they crammed in too many references which they could have spread out over a trilogy.
Does that mean I hate female leads? No, I don't think it does.

I don't have a side, I just like movies.

The point I'm making is you can't talk films anymore without it being inserted into the conversation by people who come across as crazies.
 
I don't have a side, I just like movies.

The point I'm making is you can't talk films anymore without it being inserted into the conversation by people who come across as crazies.
This is true .... I'm not crazy, my other five personalities all say so :p
 
I know this has got some merit (as a film thing and plot device) but i have to refute it due to the distraction it causes to the 'real' issues Star Wars has had since the original films. To put it another way, you can create perfectly good films with leading ladies AS LONG AS THE SCRIPT IS GOOD AND THE DIRECTOR KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING (and is able to do it without too much interference).

As for Mary Sue-ism with Rey, sure you can put that label on her but that is only because the films have been so awful at character building (ie they are not designed to build any) and only focused on the short attention span action pay out, that all there is really left of Rey is rather Mary Sue-ish.

Leia was a properly fleshed out female character (sure not the main heroine of the film like Rey (or Luke) is) whom we 'got' and understood the motivations for perfectly. Good solid female characters are not why modern Star Wars sucks.

It is a subject that both annoys me (the man-baby anti-women rage stuff) but at the same time gives Disney enough of a bloody nose (as they deserve for the tripe they have made) that i can't out right discard it. Mary Sue does hold weight as a criticism when you have little else of a character to work with.

Still was Superman a 'Mary Sue'? Or any raft of strong impossible to lose male super hero (and we have many to chose from). Where was all the complaints when it was a male hero being all powerful? So for me in general this line of argument just distracts from the real issues of Disney Star Wars (and many other franchises these days):

1. Terrible scripts, badly written, poorly thought out.
2. Bad Direction and Directors probably out of their depth vs the power of the studio they are working for.
3. A film public happy to gobble up any old junk, and go back for more.

So step back from the women-hate for a moment and understand the three points above, because if 'we' can fix those we can have great films again. With Star Wars (and Star Trek) i'm all over point three, i just don't support their junk with my hard earned money. Maybe if enough people did that then over time the other two issues would resolve themselves?


Nothing to do with gender, Rey is a text book definition of a Mary-Sue/Marty-Stu. No training, no background, no explanation of her skills and powers outside of that she is powerful in the force for <just because> and she was a junk scavenger. There is no overdone training montage, no growth as a character over two movies. It is all a <Big Mystery> which two mediocre movies have done nothing to flesh out and build the character up. I would be making the same complaints if it were a male lead over a female lead.

One of my all time favorite female leads/heros is Ellen Ripely (Alien/Aliens) Who grows as a character from terrified crew member to charging into the monsters lair to save her pseudo daughter. There is progression, character development as she overcomes trials and personal fears to grow into the hero.

Rey is the badass hero from day 1. Doing feats that would otherwise take something within the world building years of diligent training.
Can use the force effectively and efficiently with zero training? check! (Takes everyone else years of personal training)
Can wield a light saber effectively against enemies with years of training? check!
Expert hotshot pilot with absolutely no prior background, training and history? check!
Ergo Mary-Sue/Marty-Stu.

I agree the a lot of things with superman is (also one of my least favorite superheros because of it) At the very least it is explained as: he is an alien and because of that can do superhuman things because of xyz. I personally believe the reason the <Rey is a Mary Sue> has been such a vocal check point is because of the reception of the recent films, disneys handling of the franchise and star wars rabid fanbase. Sure there are neckbeards out there who are upset purely that the lead for star wars is a female and I completely condemn that thinking.

Anyway, my two bits.
 
I am disappointed in the choice of title to say the least. The way I interpret the trailer is: "Look, we get it. We killed your favourite characters and made some choices you are not happy with. But they are not really dead, right? Oh, do you remember that old boogeyman? Everyone loves to hate him, how could he be involved? I guess you have to see the movie to find out."

I suspect the answer is: Not significantly, if at all. A flashback to events the character has no apparent connection to, similar to the one in episode 7. It will look and sound great, but I am not sure it will be a good conclusion of the trilogy, given the released information so far.

After the story and acting in BSG, most movies of that genre are pretty much bound to fail.
Are you talking about the reimagined Battlestar Galactica series? Very well done, although I consider the ending rather unsatisfying.
 
I am disappointed in the choice of title to say the least. The way I interpret the trailer is: "Look, we get it. We killed your favourite characters and made some choices you are not happy with. But they are not really dead, right? Oh, do you remember that old boogeyman? Everyone loves to hate him, how could he be involved? I guess you have to see the movie to find out."

I suspect the answer is: Not significantly, if at all. A flashback to events the character has no apparent connection to, similar to the one in episode 7. It will look and sound great, but I am not sure it will be a good conclusion of the trilogy, given the released information so far.

Are you talking about the reimagined Battlestar Galactica series? Very well done, although I consider the ending rather unsatisfying.

Title wise they've made a big deal about the parents of Rey who remain a mystery, they've also made a big deal about Kylo Ren being a Skywalker.

They could both be Skywalkers, one of them is for certain. The only question is which one rises. I'm not really into the hereditary bloodlines thing though being a Brit I associate that with inbreeding and sneering posho's (reverse snobbery).

With BSG didn't the writers strike hit it badly explaining them running out of steam at the end ?.
 
Title wise they've made a big deal about the parents of Rey who remain a mystery, they've also made a big deal about Kylo Ren being a Skywalker.

They could both be Skywalkers, one of them is for certain. The only question is which one rises. I'm not really into the hereditary bloodlines thing though being a Brit I associate that with inbreeding and sneering posho's (reverse snobbery).
I agree, the further we get away from the importance of bloodlines, the better. Even if this creates issues with the idea of "destiny".
If they want to follow an overarching structure of "odd trilogy: evil wins", they strangely avoided elements of the prequels. The thing with those was, that we already knew where everything was headed towards anyway.

With BSG didn't the writers strike hit it badly explaining them running out of steam at the end ?.
Certainly that. Although I was more annoyed by the implication that everyone was a pawn, being more or less directly influenced to follow a celestial plan, or following the steps of a predetermined cycle (which was part of the story from the beginning, but not necessarily as something ultimately good).
 
I don't mind Rey as the main character she is fairly believable I guess.

It's the everything else in this set of films that annoys me. The snoke thing, the lazy plot vehicle that is the "force face time" thing, the absolute waste of the older generation of characters.

Urghh it's all very ugly, confused and lazy.
 
Its the bottom line money that's doing it.

Exactly. And it was already starting to 'rot' the franchise in RotJ (Spielberg attuning Lucas to the Ewoks as cute for the kids to bank roll the merchandising etc). By the time the prequels were being made it was all about the money and the story/plots/good film making went by the wayside. Disney just thought they could carry on milking the same old cow with the same low effort input, and they were right (dumb masses being what they are) but they tripped over on the current social politics that is defining our modern societies and are facing a backlash from that. Rest assured they will carry on making low effort input Star Wars, they just might pander to the 'white males' a little more going forward (in new films after this finale of the current trilogy)?

I don't mind Rey as the main character she is fairly believable I guess. It's the everything else in this set of films that annoys me. The snoke thing, the lazy plot vehicle that is the "force face time" thing, the absolute waste of the older generation of characters.

Urghh it's all very ugly, confused and lazy.

It is confused and lazy. But that does not matter as people will lap it up (as we can see in the money Star Wars makes). The ONLY thing that can change that is us, by not giving them money to carry on destroying that which was once (long ago in a galaxy far, far away) so good.

Not for Mary Sue objections or white male outrage, just for the sake of not supporting badly made films. It's the only way.
 
I didn't bother seeing the Last Jedi in the cinema. Caught up with it on streaming some time later.

This is a shame because I rarely go the cinema these days and I was so reticent after the first of the modern day outings that I waited for reviews and boy they were poor.

So yeah this next one looks like another load of utter tosh.

I did enjoy Rogue One a lot though, it was lacking here and there but overall it told a far better story than the sequels and I have a damn about the characters. Unlike the sequels where I could barely care less about them.
 
The devil is in the details. George Lucas had very little to do with the dialogue and much of the post filming production of the original trilogy. His then wife (Marcia Lucas) helped him with nearly all the dialogue (and a bunch of post editing), as did the actors on set. The credited directors for all the original films (whom were all very competent directors, with plenty of real world experience) certainly had a huge hand in guiding Georges vision and delivery.

Now the prequels, that was ALL George. He had surrounded himself with yes-men (and women) and convinced himself of his greatness due to the vast wealth he had accrued on the back of the success of the original films. Even his arty earlier stuff like THX (that i personally rather like) he had proper outside help (Marica again for some of the dialogue etc), and American Graffiti was being looked over by the Coppla and Kurtz (so seriously good film people).

A great idea's guy and someone with a vision and understanding of great film (his admiration of Akira Kurosawa a big step in what guided his thinking around Star Wars etc), but terrible at dialogue (prequels as exhibit A) and by all accounts not a great on-set director (Actors find it hard to pull the emotion from his directing and understand exactly what he wants and they should be doing).

Now don't get me wrong, i'm a bigger fan of his than say Spielberg, but the difference in quality from those original Star Wars films vs the prequels is telling.

Disney just does not understand the Star Wars of the original era. It is much more in tune with the prequels and mostly because they grossed more at the box office (modern films do this often, not because films are better but because they are more common and people more numerous to see them) so probably got the attention of the accountants the most.

The examples you give of poor stuff in Empire are really non-issues, not on the scale of the constant disasters (film wise) that are the prequels or 90% of the new Disney era stuff. I guess until we get to experience a planet blockade it is hard to tell if a film depiction is real enough or not? Would an ion cannon be enough to knock the blockading ship out long enough for ships to escape? And maybe deep enough inside a huge creature living inside an asteroid there would be pressure and an atmosphere of sorts, we have to find one to be sure?

But terrible stories, told badly due to modern era films fascination with action and explosions and jump scare thrills over building characters and plot, that stuff is so in your face as to be unmissable. Nostalgia is often misused in this kind of discussion.

I watched a bunch of Star Wars films recently (as many as i could stomach in relation to the prequels and Disney stuff) and those originals hold water where all the other leak everywhere. We could do a detailed blow by blow, scene by scene analysis, but that takes time and really you just need to see the Redletter Media stuff on the prequels to understand how it works in this discussion. But no it was not (is not, nor ever has been) nostalgia that makes me love the original films over everything since, nor was it an 'age' thing. They are just much better films in all aspects baring the improved special effects that is normal for improved technology now vs back in the 70's and 80's.

Here is the first batch on the first prequel:


And you can look through the playlists of theirs to see episode II and III and some of the Disney films before they lost interest.

Also the Hackfraudmedia guy (a 'tribute' channel to Redletter media in some ways) does some good stuff on the new Disney stuff:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N0_GdI8TWE


Why watch some youtube channel? To help you understand why people like myself dislike the nostalgia jibe, why we consider Star Wars post the originals so disappointing and why many Star Wars fans now no longer have as much interest in the franchise.

If you don't care to understand that, then just say so and i can save myself some time :)

Also if you simply don't care about Star Wars as maybe as much as you once did (so are content to see it dragged through the Disney mire) then please also mention it. I have a passion about Star Wars, and it still (annoyingly) matters to me, and if you had shown me where we are now like a year after Jedi (RotJ) i would have laughed you out the room as an impostor from the future, no way in hell could they have screwed up the franchise as bad as it is, but they did and will carry on doing so while we support that vandalism with our money ;)

I did not know about hackfraudmedia... ive been watching there stuff recently and its great. Red letter Media has a successor.

I wonder if they are RLM but publishing under another account because they dont want to risk controversy on their main channel/site?
 
Had a sleepless night last night with insomnia and ended up watching the Hackfraudmedia review of the last film TLJ. So on the money for me and quite funny to watch.

It really was a terrible awful film. I dislike the term "SJW" but damn this was a real banner holder for it. The first film in the sequels was bad enough but my God Rian Johnson et al and TLJ really took that first film and doubled down on the bonkers and badness. The whole subverting expectations thing feels like he went out on a limb to cripple the series.
 
Trailers are spoilers.

Not for Endgame they weren't, that's a promise. I suspect Star Wars 9 arc might be predictable but it is usually the journey that counts.

I don't get why people were so down on The Last Jedi really. If people can learn to love ep's 1-3, they can learn to love anything surely?
 
Not for Endgame they weren't, that's a promise. I suspect Star Wars 9 arc might be predictable but it is usually the journey that counts.

I don't get why people were so down on The Last Jedi really. If people can learn to love ep's 1-3, they can learn to love anything surely?

Don't agree especially when quoting a film just released and not seen. That breaks certain rules of discussion about the OP.
 
Don't agree especially when quoting a film just released and not seen. That breaks certain rules of discussion about the OP.

Don't worry, only a point about trailers not always spoiling the actual plot, nothing more.
Some studios do it but I think Disney/Lucasfilm are smart enough not be one of those.
 
Aside from the awkward love scene dialogue and a few minor bits I thought eps 1-3 were good movies. The ideas and motivations were sound.
 
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