Power-curves: Alpha DMG vs Utility DMG

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Hi Im that 90s kid and today I'd like to talk about power-curves in video games.

Specifically Alpha DMG vs Utility DMG.

The first thing I want to say I am very appreciative of Elite Dangerous, their Devs and their time. When I or others leave negative feedback. Its not because we hate anyone or the game. And sometimes this feedback can be very brutal. I reread what I post and man it comes across rigid. But thats not because im trying to be a jerk. But it sure feels that way sometimes.

The latest update to Elite Dangerous Drag missiles and frags are going to be used as an example here but its not just about that.

This is something thats been repeated over and over without addressing the core issues.

This is about putting loads of power into a single ability to solve multiple problems without addressing the actual problems at hand.

Skill and smart loadouts needs to be rewarded here.

What this does is force people to use one specific tool to solve that problem. And if people dont use that tool or dont have access to that tool they are left in the dust. In this case we are looking at the side effects of perma boosting, heavy shield use and time of engagement.

The drag effect intentionally slows people down. And in turn allows more dmg output from the aggressor.

Now what this does is punish heavy shield users in wing fights, but not in a 1v1 scenario. And reduces the chance to escape also fixing the time of engagement so people aren't submitting and low-waking 400 times.

The reality is there was too much escaping in the past.

This change does accomplish some good things and gives people the chance of winning or losing in a battles over objectives.

However, the problem is there are other tools in the game that makes this one change very over-powered and very much a necessity.

The best way to show whats going on here is explaining some of the other tools in the game, paired with this item other tools complement it too well. While the defensive mechanisms are very under-powered.

With heat lasers and multi-cannons, emissive, forceshell and grom missiles. The drag missile allows us to accomplish more time on target, crowd control and somewhat answered the shield issues we have in the game.

On the flip side, the negative effects of this change punishes hulltanking, biweaves and standard shields because of their health pool. Internals also take a huge beating now because of how soft they are after the 3.0 update. More than likely the internals will go before the hull does by a very large margin. This is without premium ammo.

I want to reiterate that I think the drag change is a good change, just not by itself.

Putting to much power into a single item to solve 3-4 problems only creates more problems in the long run without addressing shields, internals, ECM's and much more.

I can only speak for myself and I know others agree but I believe this was a very lazy change.

Utility DMG needs to be reduced, Utility items should have longer cool-downs or diminishing returns. Crowd Control is a very rewarding tool and often wins engagements in lots of games. And there are reasons to why utility is paired with Alpha DMG. But utility never shares the same alpha dmg.

The reason so many people are upset about drag missiles and frags, is its kind of the straw that breaks the camels back.

Because over the past 2-3 years there have been multiple periods of time with 0 counter-play available to the victim/defender. It takes forever to get those sorts of things fixed.

I hope to see more dedication in the future of Elite Dangerous. Specifically working on time of engagement, cool-downs and the cause and effects from weapons and defenses on a normal basis. I am talking monthly, bimonthly or even quarterly hot-fixes and META changes to keep the game fresh. And force people to adapt to different play-styles. Some people might be strong with one play-style, ship or load-out. But the next update their skill will be challenged once again.

I feel there are some other long standing issues that need to be addressed though such as the "legal logout timer" to go along with this drag fix. We will see more and more people pull the plug or use the legal way out with this change if they have the defenses to survive it.

This is nothing new here in the elite dangerous galaxy. Its to be expected.

I'd like to end this post on a positive note and thank you guys for creating this game many of us are invested in. And I hope you understand a lot of our frustrations when it comes to balancing your game.

I really dont want this to overshadow all the awesome work that goes into Elite Dangerous though. I think you guys have really nailed the new player issues, I am looking forward to interstellar initiatives in the future.

And your art and sound team should be put on a pedestal and given all the rewards in the world.

Thanks for your time. I hope this post is taken under consideration.

 

[Duc_Mallard]

Reducing time to kill whilst still rewarding evasive flying seems to be unanimously desired amongst the actual pvp community. A nerf to shield boosters ( specifically booster stacking) seems to solve a lot of the problems. But then the PvE guys go ape because the game becomes too challenging for them. Perhaps the solution is to have shield boosters less effective only for Open mode so that people that like to fall asleep in combat zones still can?

 

[Exeider]

Reducing time to kill whilst still rewarding evasive flying seems to be unanimously desired amongst the actual pvp community. A nerf to shield boosters ( specifically booster stacking) seems to solve a lot of the problems. But then the PvE guys go ape because the game becomes too challenging for them. Perhaps the solution is to have shield boosters less effective only for Open mode so that people that like to fall asleep in combat zones still can?

I think it would be great if the game could differentiate between NPC instigated damage vs player instigated, that way modules could have two different set of stats operating simultaneously, that way tweaks to one doesn't affect the other.

 

[Bigmaec]

I keep saying that in every relevant thread:

The whole speed/hitpoint pool/damage/magic effects "mess" which resulted from several updates on top of each other leaves only two possibilites:

- ignore it and keep it as it is, with minor tweaks

- or do a complete revamp/rebalance, severely limiting the use of optional and utility modules and instead buffing/rebalancing the core speed, boost, hull and shield values of all ships.

That would be a major task, and I'm not sure it's worth it, but imho it is necessary if you somehow want to break the current imbalance between combat ships and non-combat ships.
Which btw. isn't a PvP thing, anyone saying NPCs - with the exception of wing pirate assassination targets or thargoids - are balanced to engineered ships have no clue imho.

 

[Tarman]

Completely solid posting. +1

 

[Screemonster]

I can't remember who it was that said in the other thread that fdev love to make mechanics and upgrades that are fun to use as a solo player or playing with friends in pg/open and going ham on NPCs, but don't consider what it's like for the players on the receiving end while balancing them.

PvE types love to be a frickin' walking superman when they reach the endgame, slaughtering minor enemies left and right and laughing off their pathetic attacks, focusing down a tough target with their buddies, stacking a million reinforcements so their battlebarge is untouchable - but when you're fighting an opponent with the same sort of loadout suddenly it becomes a drawn-out slugfest.
Imagine if the devs took some snapshots of actual player ships and put them in as assassination targets, how many complaints along the lines of "these NPCs are all bulletsponges, I can't kill them before they wake out!" would we get?

 

[Tarman]

I can't remember who it was that said in the other thread that fdev love to make mechanics and upgrades that are fun to use as a solo player or playing with friends in pg/open and going ham on NPCs, but don't consider what it's like for the players on the receiving end while balancing them.

PvE types love to be a frickin' walking superman when they reach the endgame, slaughtering minor enemies left and right and laughing off their pathetic attacks, focusing down a tough target with their buddies, stacking a million reinforcements so their battlebarge is untouchable - but when you're fighting an opponent with the same sort of loadout suddenly it becomes a drawn-out slugfest.
Imagine if the devs took some snapshots of actual player ships and put them in as assassination targets, how many complaints along the lines of "these NPCs are all bulletsponges, I can't kill them before they wake out!" would we get?

Don't paint too broadly with that brush; that's the last kind of game I enjoy with my PVE. Once I start hitting the higher levels in Fallout, for example, I lose interest precisely due to the Superman Effect. Facetanking all the everything is seriously boring. Nobody should be able to use point-blank grenades as a melee combat option.

I prefer the STALKER experience, where you're still just a human being and don't level up; you can find decent kit and upgrade in certain ways but you don't grow a thousand new hitpoints. Wild dog packs are always a real threat no matter how long you've been playing; being shot in the face has pretty much the effect you'd expect on humans. It's much more reliant on player skill and smarts to stay alive.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

I keep saying that in every relevant thread:

The whole speed/hitpoint pool/damage/magic effects "mess" which resulted from several updates on top of each other leaves only two possibilites:

- ignore it and keep it as it is, with minor tweaks

- or do a complete revamp/rebalance, severely limiting the use of optional and utility modules and instead buffing/rebalancing the core speed, boost, hull and shield values of all ships.

That would be a major task, and I'm not sure it's worth it, but imho it is necessary if you somehow want to break the current imbalance between combat ships and non-combat ships.
Which btw. isn't a PvP thing, anyone saying NPCs - with the exception of wing pirate assassination targets or thargoids - are balanced to engineered ships have no clue imho.

I very strongly suggest a complete re-balance. And often. Seasonal.

 

[Screemonster]

Here's my proposal:
When calculating hit points, take all the ship's HP boosters (calculate HRPs and shield boosters separately) and sort them in order of the size of the boost they provide after engineering etc.
You get your first at full effect. After that, the HP boost from additional boosters receives significant diminishing returns. Like, your second-largest booster only delivers 66% of its full value. The next one gets 44% (66% of 66%), the next 29% (66% of that) and so on. That way, someone sticking a couple of reinforcements/boosters onto a multirole/trader ship still gets a pretty decent health boost from them without impacting their ability to do non-fighting things too severely, whereas someone sticking reinforcements into every single slot will only see marginal increases over the first guy, greatly narrowing the gap between gankers and gankees and maybe even giving the latter a fighting chance in a 1v1 if they've got the skills.
Maybe exempt reinforcements in military slots from these reductions - oh, look what pvp meta-ship doesn't have any military slots? And stacking five shield boosters in those six utility slots that no other medium ships had until the mamba came along won't give them such a huge bonus any more? Well, they'll get resists, sure, but those already have diminishing returns and counters. But still, it shakes up the ship meta too.

 

[Cmdr Aeries Hunter]

I can't remember who it was that said in the other thread that fdev love to make mechanics and upgrades that are fun to use as a solo player or playing with friends in pg/open and going ham on NPCs, but don't consider what it's like for the players on the receiving end while balancing them.

PvE types love to be a frickin' walking superman when they reach the endgame, slaughtering minor enemies left and right and laughing off their pathetic attacks, focusing down a tough target with their buddies, stacking a million reinforcements so their battlebarge is untouchable - but when you're fighting an opponent with the same sort of loadout suddenly it becomes a drawn-out slugfest.
Imagine if the devs took some snapshots of actual player ships and put them in as assassination targets, how many complaints along the lines of "these NPCs are all bulletsponges, I can't kill them before they wake out!" would we get?

Here lies the problem with online only games. Trying to do a one size fits all never works and will always upset someone. In the past with solo games you could change the difficulty setting to your play style (or mod). These days its just balancing to whatever group shouts the loudest at that time.