Imperial Courier Fast Battle Courier

[baqar79]

This thread has been helpful to my own build of courier as like the OP, I was aiming for an 800 m/s+ Imperial Courier (an Explorer/Combat hybrid) and in order to get 800 m/s I had to make do without the 1D HRP. In the end, this thread knocked a little bit of sense into me and I installed the 1D which meant I ended up just under 800 m/s (797 m/s), but I'm considerably more happier with the extra integrity (which is also pretty handy for High-G planet accidents!). On top of that, I can simply expel fuel by the Plasma Slug to lower the weight to go above 800 m/s

I think BurntJello's changes are pretty good to the original Velocity, I mean as pointed out by BurntJello, the recharge rate is slower, but that absolute resistance will be great against Plasma weapons or give you a bit more leeway with collisions.

I usually do a 0-PIP SYS comparison when it comes to resistances (worst case scenario), so here is the original Velocity and BurntJello's one:

Spoiler: 0-Pip SYS comparison with original Velocity and BurntJello's changes

On the downside, collecting mats again may be a pain, but it does look pretty good.

If I could make one change though, I think I would prefer to have 1xG5 Thermal Resist Booster & 1xG5 Resistance Augmented as you trade about 6% Thermal resistance for quite a nice gain (+26%) in Kinetic and Explosive:

Spoiler: G5 Reinforced Shield + G5 Thermal Resist Booster & G5 Resistance Augmented Booster

I mean I often hear about thermal (and absolute) resistances importance, but I still feel that the other types aren't completely inconsequential here...but this would be the opinion of one that explores more than fights.

 

[sinisalo]

Just to be more clear the comparison is:

Indeed, those are better numbers, thanks for the suggestion. If I find the urge to improve this ship I will give that a go. For now though I am mostly done with engineering it, because....

On the downside, collecting mats again may be a pain

Too true. I spent yesterday morning at Jameson's Cobra, Dav's and then a couple planets over getting some Selenium and Cadmium. Then to a mat trader or two. Gotta get the stocks back up. And I have other ships needing attention too. Velocity may not be optimal, but it sure does fit the bill. Nice charts Baqar, good stuff.

Tomorrow I am taking it to meet some friends to do some bounty hunting. They'll be in Vettes and I am going to be in the Courier. Thunder and Lightning is what I have dubbed it I just want to boost around them a lot so they exclaim how fast my ship is.

 

[sinisalo]

I mean I often hear about thermal (and absolute) resistances importance, but I still feel that the other types aren't completely inconsequential here...but this would be the opinion of one that explores more than fights.

This is an interesting point. Even though I didn't achieve it really, I felt the most important resistance to work on was thermal. I reasoned that in such a fast, agile ship that laser type weapons would be the most likely to hit me, since they don't have a shot speed. They just instantly hit where they are aiming. Kinetics are next and explosives (which is my highest resist, derp) would be least likely considering the speed of explosive weapons. In theory perhaps, but in practical terms you need all three.

And as I mentioned, NPCs aren't much of a threat as long as you're not asleep at the wheel, or face tanking. Collision damage is far more likely in my view. Which damage type is collision? Or what protects best against it?

There are a few builds in this thread where the commander opted to sacrifice integrity. I couldn't do it. In the event that shields are lost (pinball off a couple of Condas or something) it would take very little to kill a ship with 170-ish integrity. Another collision or a number of weapons could make short work of that.

So what's the advice for shield and hull resists for collision damage?

 

[Non Grata]

There are a few builds in this thread where the commander opted to sacrifice integrity. I couldn't do it. In the event that shields are lost (pinball off a couple of Condas or something) it would take very little to kill a ship with 170-ish integrity. Another collision or a number of weapons could make short work of that.

My vulture with engineered stock armour only boosts to 570 yet I never need to die to an NPC. So I've never seen the need for HRPs etc in PVE.

So what's the advice for shield and hull resists for collision damage?

It's absolute damage so obviously high megajoules for shields. That said I personally always go for max resistances (even if diminishing returns kick in strongly) and forgo the megajoules as I like the efficiency and fast recharge of that setup. Again, this is PVE.

Experiment and do what either works best or feels best for you.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

With the minor changes I suggested earlier you get more speed and damage, wthout having to mess with power priorities.

Do you want your ship to be worse than what people are suggesting?
Did you just expect everyone to give you positive feedback, or do you actually want to improve your build?
It's all rather bizarre.

 

[sinisalo]

Was that directed at me Bob?

Did I complain about something?

Bizzare is right. So much so that I wondered if you posted in the wrong thread. As your post still sits here I assume you didn't.
Are you mad I am not following your advice or something? I appreciate your help as mentioned more than once, but I'm happy with it now and don't care to spend more time (right now) engineering it. When someone posted something that was better, I freely said so. The fact that I don't feel compelled to make that change right away is my choice and I'm not certain why you are affected by it.

Did you just expect everyone to give you positive feedback, or do you actually want to improve your build?

Seriously?

 

[sinisalo]

It's absolute damage so obviously high megajoules for shields.

Good to know, thanks.

 

[sinisalo]

Adjusted your last posted build for option #2: https://s.orbis.zone/2z3m

Even though the resistances are lower, the additional MJ more than make up for it (higher absolute/explosive/kinetic/thermal). The cost is higher total recharge time, but that's due to more MJ.

Comparing this with what I have now I see that Shield HP (mj modified by resists) is a wash on explosive and thermal. They are essentially the same in each build. Burnt Jello's shields are significantly better with kinetic however. But the obvious cost of that kinetic improvement is much longer recharge. The less obvious one is that it would require doing yet another shield mod all the way to G5

You guys may have mats falling from trees but I do not haha.

With higher base MJ, you can survive collisions easier too.

This is great, yes, as it's my main concern. So if I ever do go this route this will be the reason. We will see how many times I die flying this Courier and go from there

 

[chuckdm]

Same thing about the LW beams applies to you.
I'd go something more like this https://s.orbis.zone/2ykz

Is this a PvP build or something? I don't play in Open. If it's not a PvP build then I'm unclear what exactly it's for?

Switching to Dirty makes sense, not sure why I had Clean in there. Besides that, why switch to LW beams? Build 1 is already at 93t, which is optimal for the drives. Any less weight won't grant enough improvement to matter. Efficient does more damage and uses less EPS so you can maintain constant fire with only 2 weapon pips, meaning you can go 4/0/2 and get that sweet shield strength bonus. Besides that, why would you trade 45% of the shield strength for SCBs? Why not just have more shields to begin with? I guess if the capacitor was constantly running dry, sure, but that's why you go with Efficient beams, so cap never runs dry and you can keep 4 pips to SYS.

To put this another way: with a boost of 600m/s, you can escape any PvE/NPC fight that you cannot win. This build, both of mine, are pure PvE shield tanks and they are not intended to survive shieldless. That said, I have spent over an hour in highres lowsec with the first build (actually slightly weaker because I had all resist aug boosters, and turns out 1 heavy duty is better) and never dropped more than the first ring of shields, even when I was up against 2 NPC Condas and a Clipper. And understand that I'm not that good. The ship is just agile enough I could stay on the Conda's butts.

I guess I'm just wondering...your alternative feels like a PvP-ninja-wizard-MLGProGamer build. For PvE I think mine's better. The only thing I would maybe change is swapping the shield and interdictor around, but that'd only work with the Rail I think due to the weight increase. Aside from that, I just don't see how hull strength or SCBs have any use in PvE.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

Whether it’s PvE or PvP, Never skip hull day.

I learned that pretty quick flying a glass hull iEagle for a long time. As it stands, 400 hull is still pretty squishy. Accidents happen lol.

Adding another shield booster here, (assuming an E booster for weight) gives you an extra 25-150mj, depending on the mod.

The 400mj this build has is generally enough, and a bit more couldn’t hurt, but an unlucky plasma to the face can change things pretty quickly if your shields have already taken some hits.

Double banking the 3As gives you a quick 160mj, so you can keep your shields up without breaking contact if you’re close to securing a kill. Tickling NPCs with beams can take time, after all.

You could always fly away and regenerate instead, but these keep you from having to do so for a little while.

In the end, I guess it doesn’t matter a whole lot. Just use what you’re comfortable with, you can use just about anything on NPCs and be OK.

 

[sinisalo]

Is this a PvP build or something? I don't play in Open. If it's not a PvP build then I'm unclear what exactly it's for?

Switching to Dirty makes sense, not sure why I had Clean in there. Besides that, why switch to LW beams? Build 1 is already at 93t, which is optimal for the drives. Any less weight won't grant enough improvement to matter.

My build has G5 Dirty with Drive Distributors and is shown as 87t optimal mass. Which combination gives 93t? Maybe I misunderstand what you mean by any less weight won't grant improvement, but I see speed gains for every ton I drop below optimal.

I agree with the comments about the hull. I'm sitting at 564 integrity. With resists it's 561/668/785 (explosive/kinetic/thermal). I have yet to lose my shields in combat (against NPCs), but with the module priorities bug striking me a couple times (and shields go offline), the additional hull is reassuring. Collisions have also knocked my shields down two rings, which is just another collision from collapsing, and then I have only integrity to fall back on.

If folks want to sacrifice integrity that's their choice, I have no problem with it. There are reasons. Rebuy's nothing anyway.

I have three unused slots that could take additional HRPs if needed. But for PvE I can't see the need. Yet. But just hold my beer

Taking it out for some wing hunting this evening and I'll see if I think it needs refinement after that.

 

[sinisalo]

I see now, it was G3 Clean with Drive Distributors giving 93t OM.

Cknarf's comments about the Eagle resonated. That was my first true combat ship (after 'Winder and Cobra 3) and I died in it. Vanilla Eagle, not the Imperial version, which I bought later and then sold. I've only had four rebuys in my time playing Elite. Three of them were in that Eagle (and one in the T-9 pig). And as a result I knew I needed more than stock integrity in this ship. So far it's all proved redundant, more of a security blanket. But there will come a time when I will be glad to have it.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Is this a PvP build or something? I don't play in Open. If it's not a PvP build then I'm unclear what exactly it's for?

It's an improvement based on the OPs stated goals, which was primarily PVE.

Switching to Dirty makes sense, not sure why I had Clean in there. Besides that, why switch to LW beams?

1 Courier with EPTs is very mass constrained, and OP was going for 800.
2 LW gives a PD draw reduction
3 LW does NOT give a thermal reduction, which makes thermal vent more effective.
4 That allows the MC to be OC

Build 1 is already at 93t, which is optimal for the drives. Any less weight won't grant enough improvement to matter.

Minimum mass is the point where lowering mass won't help, not optimal.
At minimum mass it does over 800 m/s, lol.

Efficient does more damage and uses less EPS so you can maintain constant fire with only 2 weapon pips, meaning you can go 4/0/2 and get that sweet shield strength bonus. Besides that, why would you trade 45% of the shield strength for SCBs? Why not just have more shields to begin with? I guess if the capacitor was constantly running dry, sure, but that's why you go with Efficient beams, so cap never runs dry and you can keep 4 pips to SYS.



To put this another way: with a boost of 600m/s, you can escape any PvE/NPC fight that you cannot win. This build, both of mine, are pure PvE shield tanks and they are not intended to survive shieldless. That said, I have spent over an hour in highres lowsec with the first build (actually slightly weaker because I had all resist aug boosters, and turns out 1 heavy duty is better) and never dropped more than the first ring of shields, even when I was up against 2 NPC Condas and a Clipper. And understand that I'm not that good. The ship is just agile enough I could stay on the Conda's butts.

I guess I'm just wondering...your alternative feels like a PvP-ninja-wizard-MLGProGamer build. For PvE I think mine's better. The only thing I would maybe change is swapping the shield and interdictor around, but that'd only work with the Rail I think due to the weight increase. Aside from that, I just don't see how hull strength or SCBs have any use in PvE.

I actually suggested a target of ~650m/s earlir in the thread.

LW on the beams allows OC on the MC (read: greater DPS) and attains lower mass.


Hull strength is for collisions and phasing.

Guardian shield boosters are pretty "meh", especially if you can't afford the power and mass to leverage them with shield boosters, eg Courier.

2d GSRP = 105Mj
2A SCB = 256 Mj
3A SCB = 328 Mj
3A SCB w/ specialized/boss = 379 Mj.
SCBs are to refill shields quickly.

I generally try to change as little as possible with builds I see here.
Don't mistake that for how I build my own ships unless I clearly state so
I am trying to help people realize their stated goals.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Sorry, I had your two builds confused for a moment.
I'd suggest ALSO getting rid of the seekers for you, chuckdm.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

You are pretty limited on ammo with the missiles tbh. I generally save those for mounting on larger ships, when there are more weapons to make up for that lost damage output.

How about a nice, effecient plasma accelerator? The courier has a prime location for one, right in the middle.

Power draw is surprisingly reasonable, maybe .20mw more than an effecient beam, and it’ll make taking down larger ships that much easier.

 

[sinisalo]

An after action report of sorts now that I've flown it a bit.

Personal assessment of fast battle Courier in combat : Freakin' awesome

It's all PvE. The weapons (2x efficient thermal vent beams, 1x lightweight corrosive multicannon) are good enough. Of course I no longer make targets go pop like some other ships can do. But in a high/haz RES or a CZ it works so well, since you only need to get your tags in. You don't need to kill the whole thing. It's a weak ship one v one. Jousting is not it's strong suit

But in a wing.... last night I joined some mates for some Haz RES action in Exioce. Two Vettes, a Python and my Courier. While my friends formed sort of a core battle by fighting close to each other, I would carve these wide boosted arcs, slashing through and around the melee, getting my tags in and chasing down the ships that tried to escape. Many ships attempted to escape by jumping, but I would just catch 'em. One friend remarked that my ship was faster than his missiles, as I outran them in pursuit of a jumper. That's what I wanted to hear lol.

The fantastic canopy in this ship really adds to how much I love flying it. As I flew these arcs I was 'inverted' in relation to the battle, just peering out of the top of the canopy as the ship came around as it traced the arc. It's glorious The speed with which this ship can extend or close is phenomenal. One time I hit boost and then remarked over the R/T that I could hear one of my buds behind me and they said 'you're 15km away!' The distance it covers is amazing.

It wasn't all boosts and blazing speed, as we were on for so long that I did plenty of saddling up as we formed a cross of beam lasers on whichever ship was unfortunate enough to be chosen. The thing I was most concerned with in a build like this is survivability. It's surprised me how robust it is. How it shakes off collisions. I hit my friend's Vette at about 660 m/s. Bounced right off his nose and went spinning like a top. Half a ring of shields gone. Does the wing negate this sort of damage? I flew it in combat for three hours without ever losing more than a single ring. It's just too fast to be hit long enough to matter.

Edit: Just flew again with the pilot of the Vette I hit last night. This time he was in a Krait II. He rammed me accidentally and it took two rings. A smaller ship, at lower speed and more apparent damage. The difference is he hit me. Perhaps I had four pips to sheilds when I bounced off his Vette last night. As long as I don't die all's good.

In summary I'd have to rate this project as a smashing success and thanks to everyone who helped me improve my Courier. I wanted a ship that was as fun to fly in combat as I could get. And I believe I have it now. My main focus in Elite is now to reach combat Elite, and with the amount of time I will be investing in that pursuit I wanted something that made it fun too. I thought I would find it in a small, fast combat ship. I bought an iEagle too, but the Courier won that face-off due to the fact I felt I could protect it better. Sold the iEagle and now have a great Courier that's a blast to fly.

 

[Madrax573]

Nice, what was your final build for it?

 

[Morbad]

Does the wing negate this sort of damage?

No, but the Courier can ram all sorts of things with marginal effect as it's shield to mass ratio is so extreme.

 

[sinisalo]

Nice, what was your final build for it?

I don't know when I will call it final, but this is what I flew the past two days.

Coriolis EDCD Edition

A ship builder, outfitting and comparison tool for Elite Dangerous

coriolis.io

I got rid of the chaff and replaced it with another resistance modded E booster. Chaff is useful, but I rarely even think to use it, and frankly it's just not needed. The fourth booster however really rounded out my resistances which I had felt I was struggling with as the ship came along. Pretty good now. With three unused optionals I have some flexibility for different missions or roles. For PvE combat though it's plenty of ship as outfitted. One of the HRPs isn't quite done. I'm no ninjaneer. Haha just made that up.

Speed as you can see is well below what I targeted at the outset. But ya know what, it's fast enough. No NPC can hope to keep up. Every half ton knocks significant speed off with this sort of build. I traded most of it for the full-weight beams, but it can strip shields and that's worth the trade-off for me.

Thanks Morbad. That's a nifty bonus

 

[Na'Qan]

This build is not just about stats, but the culmination of tactics, piloting style, mission, and psychological warfare.

Imperial Courier: LLV Oath of Carthage
Role: PvP, Power Play, Stealth, Interceptor, Stalker, Recon.
Key Features:

• Stealth Fighter: Hybrid Hull tank with fast charge/recovery biWeaves.
• Anti-Shield meta: Flechette Launcher: Damage enemy power plant to 80% to cause power malfunctions, causingship to shut down for 5 seconds including shields.
• No Escape: Grom Missiles with Super Penetrator Mod. (2 Experimental effects in a single weapon hard point) To stall enemy ship's escape and damage/destroy thrusters with Flechetes. Once shields are down, sub target the already damaged power plant fire continue firing super pen rockets until ships destroyed. If Flechettes destroys thrusters, engage silent running, drop out of their scanner so opponent repairs and reboots thinking its safe to do so.
• Interceptor: Fast Scan Wake Scanner (2sec. scan) paired with 3A Long Range FSD Interdictor (19 sec range). In summary, this combo allows me to pursue and interdict ships that hi-waked. By the time an enemy ship hi-wakes I can still pull them in next system. The timing behind this combination allows me to scan the hi-wake, make the jump, and still be in range of interdicting them in the next system, even if they arrived before I did and they're already pulling away from the star, the 19sec range still gives me enough range to begin tethering even when Im next to the star.
• Fast Scan KWS (2 sec) to quickly ID Cmdrs with bounties.
• Fast Scan Manifest Scanner, to quickly ID power play ships with fortification supplies.
• Constant 1-4-1 PIP setting. Weapons doesn't draw any WEPs. BiWeaves are not meant to protect, details below. Maximize turning ability to stay away from firing arc.
• AFMU standard for hull tanks to preserve integrity of canopy.
• Stealth Tactics to close in and engage ships at close range while keeping away at their firing arcs.
• Not just a hull tank, but built to mitigate incoming damage through stealth and maneuver.
• Bi-weaves reforms during evasive/defensive piloting. (I treat it like self-healing HRPs)

This build has was specifically designed to meet all the mission requirements outlined below and the tactics I employ to successful accomplish each objective. All while taking full advantage of the mechanics of the technologies accessible within.

Primary Mission: To seek out and destroy Legitimate Power Play Targets; Enemy fortifiers, underminers, and other ships pledged to enemies of the Empire.

​

Objectives:​

1. Destroy enemy fortifiers by patrolling control systems and intercepting enemy ships carrying fortification supplies.
2. Patrol enemy HQ Systems, intercepting inbound power play ships enroute to collect supplies.
3. Scan High Wakes of enemy ships departing HQ Stations carrying supplies. Intercept and destroy enemy ship carrying supplies.
4. Patrol bordering enemy control systems, intercept enemy ships returning from undermining, prevent merits from being turned in.

Secondary Mission: To seek out and destroy Wanted ships with bounties from Pilots Federation or Power Play bounties.

Objective:​

1. Deliver message of intent to all neutral ships for KWS Scan in super cruise then interdict.
2. Destroy ships with warrant.

Tertiary Mission: Provide recon and intel report in both enemy, friendly, and contested systems. Engage targets of opportunities.


The Build: https://s.orbis.zone/30ab

YouTube Reference Library: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCL0qebEnZSMy3i514MO9gaA
Defensive Summary: Hybrid Shield/Hull Tank with Chaff. Bonus: Silent Running tactics.

1C BiWeaves: Dual purpose, psychological warfare. Short recovery time means once I get out of silent running the shields would recover quickly.
Psychological effect to opponent: When enemy destroys shields, majority of the times they get tunnel vision and become overly aggressive. This is a desired effect I'm looking for. Opponents Less likely opponents high-wake or run but will stick around to fight with hopes of victory. Sun Tzu "Never press a desperate foe" give them a chance to live. In this case, give them the appearance that they are winning, they'll be too distracted to know what's really happening. (I'll get to this later)

Enhanced Low Power with Fast Charge engineering.

Hull Tank: Combining silent running and chaff, the amount of damage this ship can take is plenty enough to survive a long fight. It also has

Reactive Bulk heads and HRPs all have Grade 5 Heavy Duty except for 1 HRP, that one has Thermal resistance to balance out penalties of reactive bulk head.

Speed is just enough to escape most ships and police. Just enough to out-turn ships. This ship is meant to be in a turn fight in order to position myself for clear shots at the power plant through the shields with Flechettes. If things goes south, engage silent running and boost past enemy. If they pursue and are faster, while in silent running do a 180 and boost past them, this will greatly increase distance as enemy will continue boosting hard to catch up, but they don't know your range and direction.

OFFENSIVE SUMMARY:

Dual Flechette: It's main purpose to is to damage the power plant through the shields. With enough damage, opponents shields will drop to loss of power output. Flechette speed is 450m/s. Another reason to keep the speed of this Courier below that so I won't run into them. The second job of Flechettes is to damage or disable thrusters, especially on Big-3 ships. From my experience, if they have reinforced power plants, its better to go for the thrusters, Dirty Drive thrusters have reduced integrity so, this will fail first before the power plant. When their ship has no thrusters, they will either repair if AFMU is present. or Reboot and repair (100% of the time). You want them to reboot and repair because their shields will drop, opening up for the Super Pen From missiles below.

Other offensive/defensive feature of Flechettes Is that if enemy deploys SLF. Use Flechettes to destroy SLF thrusters, but don't finish it off. As long as the SLF remains present in the instance, they can't deploy another SLF.

FSD Disruptor causes FSD charging to reset. If enemy is charging FSD, chances are they are attempting to escape and will have their thrusters exposed to direct damage from flechettes. The delay that FSD Disruptor creates will buy enough time to disable thrusters so they will be unable to FSD charge again. Beauty about this Engineered GROM MISSILES is that you combine 2 special effects into one weapon hard point.

Effectiveness:

VERY GOOD AGAINST and Frequency Of Encounters.

1. Shield Tanks with No MRPS. VERY OFTEN. TOO OFTEN
2. CMDRs that doesn't know how to fight silent running tactics: VERY OFTEN
3. CMDRS that doesn't know effects of Flechettes: VERY OFTEN
4. CMDRS that doesn't know Mechanics of Power Priorities: VERY OFTEN
5. CMDRS that doesn't know mechanics of Power Plant Damage: VERY OFTEN
6. Hybrid Builds with some MRPS. Frequency of encountering: LOW.
7. CMDRS that are willing to fight. VERY OFTEN
8. CMDRS that are willing to run. LOW (Reference psychological warfare above)
9. CMDRS that high-wakes. VERY OFTEN (If they survive power plant pounding, HiWake Pursuit mode to finish off)

TERRIBLE AGAINST:

1. Pilots that knows about this build. Frequency of encountering. EXTREMELY LOW
2. Anti-Stealth/Hull Ship with Emissive + Packhounds. Frequency of encountering. VERY LOW

Power Priorities: If this ship's power plant is damaged, it has enough power for thrusters, and FSD to escape and shields. Mostly I will probably go in silent running and go completely evasive so enemy cannot target subsystems. If emissive is at play, I must close in and stay away from firing arcs, utilizing the 1C biweaves to regenerate often. Key feature is the LIFE SUPPORT is at Priority 4. If that goes out, the Life support mask comes up. It's the first indicator that my power plant is sustaining damage is losing out put, time to change tactics, or reassess the combat progression.

Overall cost for build and rebuy. Its a fraction of most ships this build will destroy.

Conclusion: In order to destroy enemy ship, you must make them think they have a chance at winning so they remain in the instance to die. Using Boom and Zoom takes too long and enemy will get bored if they can't catch you. Give them something to chew on (highly resistant hull) while you chip away at their power plant and thrusters.

Fly safe. o7