FSS vs. ADS – and Alternative or Additional Options for Compelling Gameplay

[ThatSmileyGuy]

I think the FSS makes a great basic level scanner, but I wouldn’t object to more tools in the explorer’s toolkit.

Exactly! Explorers are now limited to only one tool and one playstyle to carry out exploration as opposed to miners and combat-crazed Commanders.
Miners can use new tools as well as the old ones based on what type of gameplay they preffer.
Combatants can switch between turrets, gimbals, fixed not to mention a very large variety of armaments to equip the ship with.
We would only want to see more variety being allowed for explorers as it was stated before many did like the ADS playstyle.
Adding ADS or some form of ADS for that matter as an optional module would help do just that. Noone would get hurt.

 

[cheesenbiscuits]

Imagine hiring a science officer,you could call them Spock and everything. Think about it,Kirk could twiddle the knobs If he needed to but that just wasn’t his bag.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

It would have been so great if FDev had expanded exploration in a similar way to combat with its myriad options and strategy choices. Instead we're given a child's "telescope" and banal hunt-the-blob busywork. After DW2 it looks like I'll be a BGS bubble boy.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10mpRkITph8

 

[Burke]

white knights are going on about the 'same few people' here, yet the same few white knights are living in your thread

There is quite a few more of us than there is of them. Workload is high and some are really having to put the hours in

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

It would have been so great if FDev had expanded exploration in a similar way to combat with its myriad options and strategy choices. Instead we're given a child's "telescope" and banal hunt-the-blob busywork. After DW2 it looks like I'll be a BGS bubble boy.

This, beyond not being able to enjoy the game any more, is what frustrates me most. After 4 years of having only TWO pieces of exploration kit - both of which were essentially mandatory - FDev chose to 'expand' exploration by replacing them with TWO pieces of exploration kit, one of which is now free. There were so many opportunities for new modules - scanners and 'scientific' tools - but instead we got a scanner that automates the 'science' part but forces us to play an unnecessary and simplistic minigame in order to find the bodies it has already identified. Planetary mapping could have been at least slightly strategic, but instead FDev caved in and gave everyone infinite probes, rendering the whole process a pointless timesink. Oh, and then it removes any actual exploration from finding POIs.

It just could have been sooooo much better.

 

[Burke]

Im not sure more scanners is what was really required tbh. Add 100 different types of things to find would have greatly improved exploration without bothering anybodys play style. We have listed such ideas on this forum before... caves networks, real volcanos, bits of debris from long lost civilizations, fossils, dryed up lakes/seabeds, glaciers, gem stones... i dunno i made those up in a few seconds.

NASA Revives “Weird Life Forms” Trapped in Gigantic Underground Crystals in “Hell” Caverns

For an estimated 60,000 years, strange life forms have been living inside gigantic crystals at a location in Mexico.

www.theinvestigative.com

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Im not sure more scanners is what was really required tbh. Add 100 different types of things to find would have greatly improved exploration without bothering anybodys play style. We have listed such ideas on this forum before... caves networks, real volcanos, bits of debris from long lost civilizations, fossils, dryed up lakes/seabeds, glaciers, gem stones... i dunno i made those up in a few seconds.

Yeah, this touches on the other failing of the exploration update, the severe lack of interest in the Points of Interests.

 

[Faded Glory]

Yea. I guess that's what some comments here (not yours) boil down to in the end. We need an adanced ADS, which scans every system within 15k LY. But to make it a challenging task, you have to hold the button down for a massive 15 seconds.

A bit of a misrepresentation of most of the conversation on the subject actually, and one when called out is always denied.

So, you are suggesting that the FSS is difficult or challenging to use whereas the ADS was too easy?

When did the ADS ever scan all the stars in the system, no matter how far they might be from the entry point by holding down a button for 3 seconds? When did the ADS ever automatically scan any bodies within 10Ls (or thereabouts) of your location without pressing any buttons at all? When were you ever with the ADS, after spotting a remote ELW (if that's what you are after) able to scan it in just a few seconds? When, with the ADS were you able to fully scan a system with 20 bodies in it in less than two minutes, or a system with 100 bodies in less than 10 minutes?

I don't mind people liking the FSS or sticking up for it, I had no problem using it and wouldn't call for it to be changed or removed, but this idea that somehow seeing a picture view of a system after jumping in rather than seeing information laid out along an energy spectrum was somehow an 'easy mode' is just silly.

FD didn't try and make exploration more difficult with the FSS, quite the opposite, they were at pains to point out that exploration would be just as quick and easy. What they did want to do is make it more accessible, more active and hands on and they wanted players to be able to find stuff on planets.

 

[Riverside]

There is a lot to like about the changes, but the old modules didn't need to be removed and I'd like them to be made available in outfitting to purchase again. This would have no effect on those that chose not to fit them.

 

[Sylow]

So, you are suggesting that the FSS is difficult or challenging to use whereas the ADS was too easy?

Neither of them is difficult or challenging. But the ADS was "hold button for 3 seconds, success". For the FSS, while it's not utterly complex and indeed won't win the award of most genius gameplay ever, at least is gameplay. When it was announced, i expected it to be some absolutely mind-numbing minigame with no learning curve or anything.

So the FSS actually surprised me positively: while not being utterly complex and terribly hard to use (imagine the cries we would have heard, if it would've been!), it actually is gameplay and has some learning curve. You can suceed by brute-forcing it, you can succeed by aimlessly moving around and see what you find, but you can get better and thus much faster.

When did the ADS ever scan all the stars in the system, no matter how far they might be from the entry point by holding down a button for 3 seconds? When did the ADS ever automatically scan any bodies within 10Ls (or thereabouts) of your location without pressing any buttons at all? When were you ever with the ADS, after spotting a remote ELW (if that's what you are after) able to scan it in just a few seconds? When, with the ADS were you able to fully scan a system with 20 bodies in it in less than two minutes, or a system with 100 bodies in less than 10 minutes?

The new equivalent of fully scanning a system now is called mapping it. Look at the use cases:

- Search for ELWs.
Old system: Honk, open system map, fly to ELW, scan.
New system: Search specifically for ELW in FSS, fly to ELW, map.

- Completion
Old system: Honk, fly from one body to another, scan.
New system: Spot all bodies by FSS, fly from one to another, map.

- Find stellar oddities.
Old system: Honk, open system map, be proud on what you discovered by pressing a button.
New system: Use FSS to complete system, open system map, be proud on what you discovered by playing the FSS minigame.

That's why i am in favour of the FSS: it actually adds gameplay. Holding a button for a few seconds is not.

And after explaining this, i can go back to the "challenge" thing. It's a bit out of context the way you see it there. We have some users here who in many threads were all like "but now it's impossible to find such stellar oddities". Where in fact it's just as well possible, but now you have to do a bit of gameplay for it.

For me it feels a bit like they are looking for diamonds. But only if they can have a magical diamond-finding-rod. Without magic to give them diamonds, they don't care for them any more. And that's why i sometimes point out the "oh how challenging the old ADS was". A number of postings here are all about eliminating newly introduced gameplay.

And in the end, that's basically also why i dislike all the "remove and replace the FSS" topics. I mean yes, we got new gameplay. Good or bad can be discussed, but it's definitely more than we had before. (I also see plenty of things where it could be improved. But you currently can't even make an improvement suggestion, without the "kill the FSS" locusts rushing it the moment you post it. ) And the whole notion of eliminating newly created gameplay basically also is why i sometimes get a bit hyperbolic. (Like maybe the last part of my posting now... ) I mean, if eliminating gameplay is so great, then where is my combat computer? So i just have to find a wanted Anaconda and switch the computer by pressing a button. If i manage to press the button for several seconds without cramps in my fingers, the Anaconda blows up and i get the bounty. Wouldn't that be useful?

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

And in the end, that's basically also why i dislike all the "remove and replace the FSS" topics

Except that precisely NOBODY is asking for the FSS to be removed or replaced. All any of us want is the option not to use it.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Neither of them is difficult or challenging. But the ADS was "hold button for 3 seconds, success". For the FSS, while it's not utterly complex and indeed won't win the award of most genius gameplay ever, at least is gameplay. When it was announced, i expected it to be some absolutely mind-numbing minigame with no learning curve or anything.

So the FSS actually surprised me positively: while not being utterly complex and terribly hard to use (imagine the cries we would have heard, if it would've been!), it actually is gameplay and has some learning curve. You can suceed by brute-forcing it, you can succeed by aimlessly moving around and see what you find, but you can get better and thus much faster.

I completely agree. As far as mechanisms go, I was very happy to see the FSS demonstrated. The thing is, many are not arguing ADS vs FSS (some are though) but the argument is: FSS combined with ADS vs stand alone FSS.

So yeah, the ADS as a mechanism was pretty poor. But getting the resulting information at a glance was key to a certain type of exploration. Speaking for myself, I'm not arguing against the FSS. I am arguing to make the FSS an integral part of my exploration. But that means I need to get to the point of creating a trigger to use the FSS, a decision. At the moment the decision is: enter a new system, look at # of bodies. That doesn't cut it for me. It means my hit/miss ratio goes way into the miss territory to justify spending minutes of FSSing.

Now while agreeing that involvement of the FSS is a step up from ADS, it's not the kind of stellar gameplay that has me, or anyone else I suspect, glued to the screen. It's not the gameplay that needs to attract, it's the reward at the end of it that does. Those who are enjoying the FSS enjoy revealing the system map, this is the carrot and they get rewarded every time they use the FSS. And all power to them. The investigation in to where your interests lie is what attracts.

And there's the disconnect for me. Revealing the system map is not a carrot for me. Not too interested in that. Determining from seeing the system map what kind of system I am in, and making decision upon the layout is. Looking for the outliers I go through hundreds of systems with a hit ratio of about 1 in 30/40/50 depending on my luck. And that's fine, since once I find that system I can take a break from my journey and muck around in that for quite some time. But once I find such a system, the FSS is a welcome addition to the tool set. I would very much like to combine the two so I can use it in a focused manner, in a system I am already interested in.

 

[Sylow]

Except that precisely NOBODY is asking for the FSS to be removed or replaced. All any of us want is the option not to use it.

Which effectively is just that: replace it by honk. May i have my combat computer, please?

Now while agreeing that involvement of the FSS is a step up from ADS, it's not the kind of stellar gameplay that has me, or anyone else I suspect, glued to the screen. It's not the gameplay that needs to attract, it's the reward at the end of it that does. Those who are enjoying the FSS enjoy revealing the system map, this is the carrot and they get rewarded every time they use the FSS. And all power to them. The investigation in to where your interests lie is what attracts.

And there's the disconnect for me. Revealing the system map is not a carrot for me. Not too interested in that. Determining from seeing the system map what kind of system I am in, and making decision upon the layout is. Looking for the outliers I go through hundreds of systems with a hit ratio of about 1 in 30/40/50 depending on my luck. And that's fine, since once I find that system I can take a break from my journey and muck around in that for quite some time. But once I find such a system, the FSS is a welcome addition to the tool set. I would very much like to combine the two so I can use it in a focused manner, in a system I am already interested in.

I can get behind that. But i don't agree with the solution so many people propose. Returning the ADS to not having to use the FSS is basically the badly hidden request to dispose of the FSS by going back to the honk. It just doesn't cut it for me. And actually there -were- some suggestions in some of the older threads, which would have been nice and useful upgrades of the FSS. I am too lazy to dig throught THAT pile of biowaste again, though. If you want to see them, you have to look yourself. But while they were posted, they were covered by endless complaints of people. (And as we later found out, some of them never even tried the FSS, but were determined that they would hate it. )

It currently is impossible to make an actual improvement suggestion. There were some around. I also have a list of things which i would like to be changed, updated and improved. But it's impossible to get anything like that heard among the wailing of predjudice. I have some faint hope that the wailing at some time might end and more constructive suggestions than "back to the old" can be heard. But while i hope, i don't believe that it will happen any time soon.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Which effectively is just that: replace it by honk. May i have my combat computer, please?

You already do - they're called Turrets.

 

[Sylow]

You already do - they're called Turrets.

Not good enough. I have put a pulse laser turred on my hauler and the Anaconda was not dead after 3 seconds.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Not good enough. I have put a pulse laser turred on my hauler and the Anaconda was not dead after 3 seconds.

Plenty good enough - the point being that you are not required to manually aim in order to engage your combat target.
I'd like an FSS Turret please - in order to not have to manually aim to discover the location of exploration targets - we can call it the ADS.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Which effectively is just that: replace it by honk. May i have my combat computer, please?

Errr, no, it's not being replaced.
The FSS would still exist. The 'honk' would be optional.

 

[Sylow]

Errr, no, it's not being replaced.
The FSS would still exist. The 'honk' would be optional.

I personally see that the worst enemy of "good" is not "bad" but "better". I mean, you're all about "the ADS would be so much better". And if it would be so much better, by allowing to avoid the FSS gameplay, it would eclipse the FSS. In limited time (means: a few hours before the patch goes life) things would go from "the ADS is optional" to "you are a fool if you don't use it".

It's not the direction the game should go in my eyes. It would be much better to see how the FSS can be improved, instead of trying to go back to the old. But that's where i will leave it here. I know we won't get to agree. We could now go on forever on the "yes it is" and "no it isn't" cycle here, but that won't help anybody.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I personally see that the worst enemy of "good" is not "bad" but "better". I mean, you're all about "the ADS would be so much better". And if it would be so much better, by allowing to avoid the FSS gameplay, it would eclipse the FSS. In limited time (means: a few hours before the patch goes life) things would go from "the ADS is optional" to "you are a fool if you don't use it".

It's not the direction the game should go in my eyes. It would be much better to see how the FSS can be improved, instead of trying to go back to the old. But that's where i will leave it here. I know we won't get to agree. We could now go on forever on the "yes it is" and "no it isn't" cycle here, but that won't help anybody.

I'm all about "The ADS lets me waste my time flying around systems exploring them, in a way that the FSS doesn't allow".
The FSS is vastly superior in terms of getting results, but exploration for me isn't about the results. There is no way in which the ADS 'eclipses' the FSS and no reason other than personal preference for using it.