Small ship combat sucks

[Sylow]

I know it doesn't really address the whole of your point but if you're determined to do combat in a small ship, it's probably best to make sure it's a Vulture.



Overall, though, small ships in ED are kind of like TIE fighters; they're just cannon-fodder for bigger ships.

It'd be nice if FDev could come up with some gameplay specifically limited to small-ships.

No criticism to your post, rather emphasizing what you write:

Why should the it be "Vulture or bust"? Why shouldn't the other ones not also be viable?

Why are small ships just cannon-fodder? When they at the same time are what new players are forced to use? I know there's plenty of people here who go like "but you have your Anaconda faster than you can sneeze", but that's for US. Who know things. And for those who look into get-money-fast schemes before even starting a game.

It's not what the usual, average new player experiences. It's those which the game is bleeding away before they even make it out of their Sidewinder. Despite some people here claiming that the game is soooo easy, the stats look different. On the PS4 you can find out how many gave up before switching away from the Sidewinder. Those people paid money for the game, then gave up on it. So anybody who claims that the game is not hard for beginners: yes, you are absoultely leet, we get it. But there are others, who are not. And they could also be paying customers. It would really be good for the game to have those, still playing, still paying random stuff from the item store, etc.

And last not least: it would be absolutely AWESOME if we would have gameplay which is made specifically for small ships. But up to now, we have nothing like that. And it's really hard to create it, too.

I mean, combat with tight areas: why bring a small ship, when a big ship with a SLF can also do it?

Blockade runner? All ships have the same speed in supercruise. So the difference would be in regular space. Where the 7.5 km would be all the difference probably. But hey, to make things accessible for those who most likely fly new ships (hint: beginners are locked into them before they made some money) the NPCs would have to be balanced around non-engineered ships. Which again means that an engineered Cutter or Clipper or even some other medium and large ships would be fast enough to also do it. So again, no incentive for the small ship.


It unfortunately is much easier to show why things would not work out, than to come up with an idea which would indeed give small ships an actual use in the game, which is not combat related.

There are also still compelling reasons to use the ships in the game, even as a part of gameplay progression for some, and a bit of fun for others. They don't need to own at combat in the game other than being a pest, and probably shouldn't anyway.

I am currently aware of only one activity in the game, where a small ship is of an advantage. And you don't even USE the ship in that scenario: when collecting blueprints at guardian sites, a small ship with a PD on top (so only small ships with top mounted utility slot count) can provide cover fire while you are in your SRV.

For anything else, be it missions, cargo transport, exploration, combat, etc. a small ship is an inferior choice. And i consider that wrong. I mean i get it, i am an oddity here. It's a collision of philosophy here. Some people believe that in games the player should matter and that different options and playstyles should be valid. Other people think that grind (followed by some more grind) should be the way to power and success.

The second point of view is what the game also expresses. First grind for money (or use the flavor of the month get money quick scheme), then grind for engineer access and engineer materials. I personally would prefer if the game would be designed to be fun at all stages and all ships being useful. No stepping stones, no waste of developer work, but everything being valuable content. But people like me seem to be a tiny minority these days.

 

[WR3ND]

Small ships are great for exploration. I personally love having high supercruise maneuverability and handling over worlds. That some want to go camping taking everything and the kitchen sink along with them while also having the longest jump ranges in the game is kind of on them.

Don't get me wrong though. I agree that the general gameplay progression meta is often at odds with playing the game contextually.

 

[Sylow]

And yet i dare to say that there are several medium ships around, which also have quite good handling, while being able to bring a few more things along. If you need them or not of course is up to you.

I also think that maximum jump range is only required for some areas of exploration, else it's more of a tourism thing. But being able to bring some more useful equipment for a minimal loss of supercruise handling in most cases is a good tradeoff. (The loss in regular flight is bigger. But you can do the job perfectly fine on other ships, without the inherent limitations of small ships. )

So i agree that small ships -also- are able to do the job, as long as you accept the limitations. But that's as good as it gets and definitely is not a specified role where they outshine the alternatives.

 

[Neutrino Sunset]

Last night I tried some freelance bounty hunting in my Imp Eagle. That didn't work out too great. Killing a target at a nav beacon is easy enough but interdicting a target I couldn't kill anything before they just FSD out again.

Next I think I'll have a go at the Pirate Massacre missions, someone earlier mentioned that the targets in these missions are not engineered and so can probably be taken down more effectively in a non-engineered Imp Eagle. It was also mentioned that these missions are still stackable if you get them for different factions. Does anyone know whether this is definitely still true? I tried stacking CZ massacre missions already but that doesn't work anymore, each kill counts towards only one mission.

After that though it seems as though I'm going to have to start the engineering grind, and to do that I think I'll need something with a bit more general purpose utility so I'll probably get a Cobra MkIII.

Some commenters still insist on dismissing my original complaint with the line "small ships shouldn't own", which egregiously mischaracterises the issue. I'm perfectly content that a small ship cannot own large or even medium ships, but I can still see no reason whatsoever why a small ship should not be able to effectively destroy another small ship (even if the target is engineered), that still seems quite unreasonable.

 

[WR3ND]

...

For me a Cobra Mk III is the sweet spot for general exploration. My Vulture can be a lot of fun though and feels a bit more like a worthy challenge in some respects, though exploration has gotten a lot easier. Naturally YMMV.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Last night I tried some freelance bounty hunting in my Imp Eagle. That didn't work out too great. Killing a target at a nav beacon is easy enough but interdicting a target I couldn't kill anything before they just FSD out again.

Next I think I'll have a go at the Pirate Massacre missions, someone earlier mentioned that the targets in these missions are not engineered and so can probably be taken down more effectively in a non-engineered Imp Eagle. It was also mentioned that these missions are still stackable if you get them for different factions. Does anyone know whether this is definitely still true? I tried stacking CZ massacre missions already but that doesn't work anymore, each kill counts towards only one mission.

After that though it seems as though I'm going to have to start the engineering grind, and to do that I think I'll need something with a bit more general purpose utility so I'll probably get a Cobra MkIII.

Some commenters still insist on dismissing my original complaint with the line "small ships shouldn't own", which egregiously mischaracterises the issue. I'm perfectly content that a small ship cannot own large or even medium ships, but I can still see no reason whatsoever why a small ship should not be able to effectively destroy another small ship (even if the target is engineered), that still seems quite unreasonable.

Be aware that even in the bounty missions, if you can't take the pirate from zero shields to zero hull, very quickly that the pirate will just hi-wake out... Happens to me all of the time - and my courier is quite heavily engineered, but your logic is pretty sound otherwise. Play around with your loadout to find which 'works' for you

 

[Stealthie]

No criticism to your post, rather emphasizing what you write:

Why should the it be "Vulture or bust"? Why shouldn't the other ones not also be viable?

Why are small ships just cannon-fodder? When they at the same time are what new players are forced to use? I know there's plenty of people here who go like "but you have your Anaconda faster than you can sneeze", but that's for US. Who know things. And for those who look into get-money-fast schemes before even starting a game.

Kind of an interesting discussion about the psychology of video-games to be had there.

I mean, a squadron of TIE fighters IS going to be able to bring down a Calamari Cruiser eventually.
If you were playing a Star Wars RTS, you probably wouldn't think twice about sending in a squadron of TIE fighters to do the job, even if it meant losing half of them.
If you were playing a Star Wars flight-sim, OTOH, and your experience of the battle was to fly a TIE fighter, fire off a few shots and then get exploded, it probably wouldn't be very rewarding.

It'd be nice if there was, somehow, gameplay in ED that allowed groups of players in fighters to team-up and take on big ships.
Trouble is, I'd bet FDev's statistics show that players aren't terribly keen on that sort of gameplay.

Maybe it'd help if FDev released Fleet Carriers and made them into ships that could only carry, say, a squadron of Eagles or other small ships?
Even there, though, if you're one of half a dozen people flying Eagles to attack, say, a Cutter then the experience is still one that's personal to you - you take off, do some damage, get exploded and then visit the rebuy screen.
Rinse and repeat.
It's not the end of the world but it's not going to be very satisfying.

It might be better if Fleet Carriers could be outfitted with SLF bays and then launch up to, say, half a dozen SLFs all at once.
That'd probably be a more fun experience because it'd just be launch, attack, get exploded, launch another SLF and get stuck in again.

Trouble is that wouldn't actually address the problem relating to "regular" small ships at all.

 

[Neutrino Sunset]

I have to admit that I like that the NPC's try to escape when they are losing the fight, adds a little bit of realism and immersion even if it is annoying

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

Vulture or bust is so common to hear just because it’s that potent.

-Two large hardpoints
-Good shields
-Good hull
-Affordable (1/4 price to outfit vs lower priced mediums)
-Second only to the Eagle in terms of maneuverability
-Can compete with some player controlled mediums
It’s only purpose is to beat things up.

 

[Neutrino Sunset]

In the small ship squadron vs big ship fight scenario I think there are a couple of other considerations that ameliorate the issue of small ship losses.

1. If your small ships are attacking with missiles/torpedos then a certain amount of the large ships point defense is going to be otherwise occupied fending them off, which hopefully reduces the losses of your small ships.

2. If the reward of a successful attack against the large ship is sufficient and payable even to pilots who lost ships in the attack, then losing a few is still a win.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Kind of an interesting discussion about the psychology of video-games to be had there.

I mean, a squadron of TIE fighters IS going to be able to bring down a Calamari Cruiser eventually.
If you were playing a Star Wars RTS, you probably wouldn't think twice about sending in a squadron of TIE fighters to do the job, even if it meant losing half of them.
If you were playing a Star Wars flight-sim, OTOH, and your experience of the battle was to fly a TIE fighter, fire off a few shots and then get exploded, it probably wouldn't be very rewarding.

It'd be nice if there was, somehow, gameplay in ED that allowed groups of players in fighters to team-up and take on big ships.
Trouble is, I'd bet FDev's statistics show that players aren't terribly keen on that sort of gameplay.

Maybe it'd help if FDev released Fleet Carriers and made them into ships that could only carry, say, a squadron of Eagles or other small ships?
Even there, though, if you're one of half a dozen people flying Eagles to attack, say, a Cutter then the experience is still one that's personal to you - you take off, do some damage, get exploded and then visit the rebuy screen.
Rinse and repeat.
It's not the end of the world but it's not going to be very satisfying.

It might be better if Fleet Carriers could be outfitted with SLF bays and then launch up to, say, half a dozen SLFs all at once.
That'd probably be a more fun experience because it'd just be launch, attack, get exploded, launch another SLF and get stuck in again.

Trouble is that wouldn't actually address the problem relating to "regular" small ships at all.

Why team up with strangers if you run the risk of being blown up by them? Coop and PvP dont mix well.

 

[Neutrino Sunset]

"Coop and PvP dont mix well "

Tell that to CSGO, or Dota, or LOL.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

I’ve met plenty of randos in multicrew who were willing to meet up and wing for bounty hunting, man.

Even then, if anyone suddenly decides they don’t want to be friendly anymore, you can just leave lol.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

Last night I tried some freelance bounty hunting in my Imp Eagle. That didn't work out too great. Killing a target at a nav beacon is easy enough but interdicting a target I couldn't kill anything before they just FSD out again.

Next I think I'll have a go at the Pirate Massacre missions, someone earlier mentioned that the targets in these missions are not engineered and so can probably be taken down more effectively in a non-engineered Imp Eagle. It was also mentioned that these missions are still stackable if you get them for different factions. Does anyone know whether this is definitely still true? I tried stacking CZ massacre missions already but that doesn't work anymore, each kill counts towards only one mission.

After that though it seems as though I'm going to have to start the engineering grind, and to do that I think I'll need something with a bit more general purpose utility so I'll probably get a Cobra MkIII.

Some commenters still insist on dismissing my original complaint with the line "small ships shouldn't own", which egregiously mischaracterises the issue. I'm perfectly content that a small ship cannot own large or even medium ships, but I can still see no reason whatsoever why a small ship should not be able to effectively destroy another small ship (even if the target is engineered), that still seems quite unreasonable.

Cobra to unlock engineers wont cut it. Some engineers will ask for 1000000 Cr of Combat zone bonds so that's a chicken egg situation. Also, you'll have to mine hundreds of tons of bromelite or painite. Progression with pure combat in mind is bonkers. I'll be you, I would find some get rich quick scheme you wont burn out with and get a mid sized ship python clone.

Exemple : Get the best jump range possible, 12T of gargo space and then you can stack several RamTah missions for 111000000 Cr each and get some lore while doing them, just dock at the station in Meene, then buy another ship, get out of the system and come back, redock, do it a few times. Follow the Cannon guide to scan the obelisks. Come back, you'll be Explorer Elite and with some decent money in the bank.

Then tackle the engineers in your preferred order. Some are a PITA to unlock. You have my sympathies.

 

[Sylow]

Kind of an interesting discussion about the psychology of video-games to be had there.

[...]

Absolutely. And a lot of what you write is perfectly true, especially in a RTS. Two players, each being the commander, fielding a fleet. One goes for quality (Protos) the other for quantity (Zerg). In an RTS it's a good and proven concept, great fun. But the moment one player pilots the Protos carrier while the other one plays a single Zergling, the second player very likely doesn't have much fun or success any more.

In the end, for everybody to have fun, every player should matter. Giving some players reduced value works against that. Especially when looking at EDs design. There's 1 vs 1. Which you could still say that it's your own decission to fly alone. But then there are wings. Limited to four players. It doesn't matter if it's four Haulers or four Corvettes. There is no balancing based on mass, ship price, combat value or anything.

The limit is "players". Four of them.

And that's a bit the shizophrenia of this games design. On one hand, they limit by player number. So every player counts. But only if the player also has a sufficiently big ship. Else he is basiclly worthless. I personally would really appreciate it, if FD would fix that. It would reduce (while probably not eliminating) a number of problems the game has. Balance, accessibility, new player retention, gameplay options, design of new content, etc. There's a number of things which could profit a lot from this. But as long as a sufficient number of people (among them apparently people at FD) believe that merely time invested (nicer word for "grind credits and engineers") should be the determining factor for power, this can not be resolved.

Trouble is that wouldn't actually address the problem relating to "regular" small ships at all.

Depends. Before engineers came around, there were a number of people around who flew small ships. They still often were seen as at a small disadvantage, but not utterly outclassed. So such balance at some time was possible. The drawback of "at a disadvantage, but still viable" was overcome by "more fun to fly". Just getting back to this status would already reduce the problem a lot. Unfortunately with engineers around, i see no way to get there any more, without turning small ships into big ships in disguise.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

I thought the combat bond/bounty engineers only wanted like 100k in bonds. That’s only a handful of ships in a conflict zone, or just one in the hazres.

Keep in mind that the 500 tons for Selene Jean are refined tons. You don’t have to sell the cargo you collect, so if you just mine everything you come across instead of being picky, you’ll have that knocked out in no time. Just vent the junk you collect and keep pushing towards 500.

Each rock craps out about 10 tons, give or take.

Edit: I was thinking Todd McQuinn’s 100k unlock.

There’s another engineer out there who wants quite a bit more in bonds. Better off letting NPCs do the heavy lifting in that regard.

 

[Kenneth McGrew]

small ships suck even with engineering, there are a few exceptions by chance rather than design, (courier) but with the HP inflation SCB stacking of NPCs even with heavily modified rails you will run out of ammo before getting through the shields of an Elite NPC in an identical "base" ship.

the exception is sniping modules, but magic Elite NPCs (with a little common sense) just off back to SC long before then and come back with 100% health, the rest of the class 1 weapons are turds.

the hull hardness frig factor number is another nail in the coffin for small ships where class one weapons turn into weaponised salads and are about as deadly as a broccoli floret in a street fight where your opponent has an AK47 and is 50m away.

PVE combat in general is a bit meh right now though, you can either have a lute warm offensive salad of a ship (small ship) or a death machine on maximum death power almost one shot kill NPCs AKA Krait, then there's the cutter and corvette in case you need insanely easy let me hold your hand and actually do it for you style combat with 1billion HP so you can AFK gain combat rank :O

ironically you gain the same rank from killing an elite ship weather you're in a wafer thin ship made from digestive biscuits or an invincible leviathan with death cannons, yet the two skill levels are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

 

[Vedmo]

Cytoscramblers couple with good PP sniping (rails, canons, plasmas) make small ships very efficient big ship killers. I've got a few small ships set up this way, and the biggest issue I have is killing agile small and mediums. I'm just talking PVE here, but I'd much rather my Vipers or Imp Eagle face a Vette or Conda 1v1 than any of the agile mediums or smalls, and that seems kind of weird to me. I can faff around trying take down a Chieftain or Courier or even Cobra for quite a while, then see a Conda and be happy for an easy target.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

I thought the combat bond/bounty engineers only wanted like 100k in bonds. That’s only a handful of ships in a conflict zone, or just one in the hazres.

Keep in mind that the 500 tons for Selene Jean are refined tons. You don’t have to sell the cargo you collect, so if you just mine everything you come across instead of being picky, you’ll have that knocked out in no time. Just vent the junk you collect and keep pushing towards 500.

Each rock craps out about 10 tons, give or take.

Edit: I was thinking Todd McQuinn’s 100k unlock.

There’s another engineer out there who wants quite a bit more in bonds. Better off letting NPCs do the heavy lifting in that regard.

In my run two engineers asked for 1000000 CZ bonds. According to this guide Dekeer asks from 1 to 10 million Cr in combat bonds.

Spoiler

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteOne/comments/8bs6g8

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteOne/comments/8bs6g8/foxs_stepbystep_guide_to_unlocking_engineers/

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteOne/comments/8bs6g8/foxs_stepbystep_guide_to_unlocking_engineers/


This is ridiculous.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

y tho