Guardian AX Fighters Are Too Fragile, Need Balancing

[DDastardly00]

When I deploy my Guardian AX fighter in an AX zone, it lasts on average less than 30 seconds before it's destroyed, My crew pilot is a Master, almost Dangerous too. I know the 'Goids are tough on SLFs, but shouldn't a Guardian SLF have at least some advantages over a regular SLF in an AX zone? It just doesn't seem balanced for AX combat at all.


Edit:

I'm using a Lance, but it doesn't really matter because all 3 last about the same amount of time.

 

[Morbad]

My experience with them is limited, but I have flown them from multi-crew and because they have the lowest hull integrity of any SLF, they are downed almost immediately by anything that bypasses shields...which is indeed odd for ships apparently intended to fight Thargoids.

 

[Witcher 7]

Yep, I wasted mats and blueprint to unlock Lance and Trident, then lost my Elite AI crew in them.

They are also pretty useless against human ships as they have one HP only and thinner hulls.

 

[DDastardly00]

Yep, I wasted mats and blueprint to unlock Lance and Trident, then lost my Elite AI crew in them.

They are also pretty useless against human ships as they have one HP only and thinner hulls.

I know that feeling, except mine wasn't Elite, she was Deadly but still, I had her forever and now she is gone.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

+1

I suggested that guardian SLFs should be highly resistant to caustic damage (because they fly through it, and you can't stop them!), and virtually immune to phasing sequence.

If they get slimed, they're literally dead before you can react.
And Thargoids phasing sequence can often destroy an SLF with its shields up. Lol

Both of these modifications offer almost zero advantage in PvP or non AX PvE, because phasing and caustic are rarely used in PvP, or PvE, but make them much more viable in AX.

 

[Morbad]

They are also pretty useless against human ships as they have one HP only and thinner hulls.

It's not all bad.

They have good shielding and often last longer than the GU-97. Also, the plasma ball one has pretty solid sustained damage output and the rail has some unique advantages relative to other SLF weapons.

The key weakness is the hull, especially vs. corrosive.

Both of these modifications offer almost zero advantage in PvP or non AX PvE, because phasing and caustic are rarely used in PvP

NPCs wing assassination targets and CZ Spec Ops make use of phasing, as do some random NPC encounters, and it's not that rare in PvP.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

It's not all bad.

They have good shielding and often last longer than the GU-97. Also, the plasma ball one has pretty solid sustained damage output and the rail has some unique advantages relative to other SLF weapons.

The key weakness is the hull, especially vs. corrosive.



NPCs wing assassination targets and CZ Spec Ops make use of phasing, as do some random NPC encounters, and it's not that rare in PvP.

I mean "rare" as in its not the meta for taking down SLFs, to the point that it wouldn't really make much difference if guardian SLFs were resistant to it.

FD can probably, if not already, separate standard phasing and Thargoid phasing anyway, and give guardian SLFs Thargoid phasing resistance.

 

[Fake Newts]

Using guardian fighters for their intended purpose has been a total waste of time from day 1. There are few moments of such classic Fdevvery as giving them 10 hull vs. thargoid phasing damage. Call me cynical but it's almost like they don't think balancing through very hard, at all, ever.

To be completely fair though, no fighters are particularly useful for higher-end AX stuff except possibly as glorified countermeasures, so I don't necessarily think a balance pass on their hull would drastically improve their utility in the long run. Combined with the fact that HP bloat in regular PvE has left even the highest DPS fighters in a bad spot, it's increasingly hard to justify hangars over more defensive modules for anything other than a diversion.

It might be nice to be able to host players for AX fights and not have them be constantly waiting for fighter rebuilds though.

 

[Witcher 7]

It's not all bad.

They have good shielding and often last longer than the GU-97. Also, the plasma ball one has pretty solid sustained damage output and the rail has some unique advantages relative to other SLF weapons.

The key weakness is the hull, especially vs. corrosive.

I find the GU-97 can last longer than any Guardian SLF against human ships.

 

[Sterling MH]

How about just making them highly corrosion resistant? They become "Anti-thargoid" ships, then.

 

[Speedcuffs]

Damn shame, they're really nice looking.
But I just don't use them.

 

[Bob McBobblehead]

They look nice and sound great, but they are to fragile for AX combat.
Guardian shields should be able to stop any Thargoid damage leaking through.
The hull should be caustic resistant, allowing them to fly through caustic clouds and take no caustic damage from Thargoid's missile caustic goo.

 

[Fake Newts]

How about just making them highly corrosion resistant? They become "Anti-thargoid" ships, then.

They have 10hp. Corrosion resistant or otherwise makes no difference, as a glancing shot from any interceptor will kill them. (although I agree they should be able to fly through the clouds)

 

[Sterling MH]

They have 10hp. Corrosion resistant or otherwise makes no difference, as a glancing shot from any interceptor will kill them. (although I agree they should be able to fly through the clouds)

So make them higher HP, they can still be less than the other ships. Yes, they're less durable than a real fighter, but so what? That's what SLFs ARE. Putting the non-guardian SLFs against NPCs in a Combat Zone would also have that probem. And a problem that occurs everywhere is not ACTUALLY a problem in that one place.

In high risk situations, the SLF is nothing more, and could never be any more, than a drone fighter (see Fighter Drones in the X seris of games), you put them out to take some of the heat off your ship. If they were 90% resistant to corrosion (I do not believe they should be 100% immune), they would be able to be left to AI use as throwaway fodder or by you so as to remove the pests (like, again in X2, the M5 fighter docked at your M6 corvette) and help the AI pilot survive. Or, if you winged up with a human, as the best of both worlds. IMO this is how an AX strike should work: Two people, one flying the SLF and one flying the main ship, the SLF can afford to fly rings around the furball because it is largely immune to environmental damage, while the main ship deals most of the damage.

So take out three low level NPCs for your AX fight and expend them in your guardian SLFs. They're there to take some of the heat off you, nothing more.

On a similar subject, I would have liked to have seen the AX weapons be brutal againt thargoids and the guardian weapons be equal to standard weapons for human targets and STILL at least NEARLY as useful against thargoids. If you go out thargoid hunting in that setup, you pick as many AX weapons as you can, and if you have spares, you fit guardian weapons, which then become useful in self defense outside the bug zone. If you HAVE guardian weapons, you may decide to ALWAYS run with them, because they're "as good as" your normal weapons, but still very viable if you find an alien combat zone.

But with AX weapons buffed so they're BRUTAL against aliens, you will choose to fit AX weapons to as many hardpoints as you can, if you are deliberately going for thargoid hunting, you only fit normal weapons if you have spare hardpoints OR you worry about getting attacked by human ships on the way there or back.

It could be headcannoned that the AX weapons got a free buff from the knowledge gained in guardian tech, and retrofitted for free because the thargoids are now a threat to the systems, not just PF pilots and NPC ships.

If necessary, the buff to guardian weapons could be done via engineering being made available that buffed their output so that they are as good as equivalently engineered normal weapons against humanity's ships (so they can be fitted as as normal standard practice) AND they're at least nearly as good at thargoids, if less so than AX weapons, keeping AX weapons useful.

 

[Fake Newts]

So make them higher HP, they can still be less than the other ships. Yes, they're less durable than a real fighter, but so what? That's what SLFs ARE. Putting the non-guardian SLFs against NPCs in a Combat Zone would also have that probem. And a problem that occurs everywhere is not ACTUALLY a problem in that one place.

I'm fully aware of what SLFs ARE. As well as their stats. Thanks though.

The thread is about the relative viability of guardian fighters for the task they were specifically designed for. Taipans are a better choice because of their higher hull, 45hp, which gives them a fraction of breathing room against phasing weapons, which all Thargoids have.

 

[Sterling MH]

I'm fully aware of what SLFs ARE.

Actually by your words already uttered you clearly do not, because you are writing an expectation that is incompatible with what SLFs ARE, tactically speaking. What YOU are saying is not what they ARE but what they OUGHT to be.

The thread is about the relative viability of guardian fighters for the task they were specifically designed for. Taipans are a better choice because of their higher hull, 45hp, which gives them a fraction of breathing room against phasing weapons, which all Thargoids have.

But thargoids shooting the SLF are not shooting you. So all the difference is doing is diluting the effect of having to vector in to the SLF and then realign to your ship by making them spend more time shooting one SLF.

If the thargoids spend 15 seconds shooting the SLF and revectoring, with 2 seconds spent doing damage to the guardian SLF, then the taipan changes that to 15 seconds plus an extra 9 seconds of needing to do damage.

HOWEVER, if there are corrosive clouds around (that IS one of the complaints you've had), then the taipan, at 0% resistance, will be damaged for, theoretically, ALL the 13 seconds spent not shooting it, meaning it could die without ever having been hit. If the Guardian SLF were taking 10% of the damage, it would be damaged almost not at all by the clouds (less than half damage, assuming the taipan managed 13 seconds before kablooie) and STILL last one more second due to incoming fire. That would be 13 seconds for the taipan and 14 seconds for the Guardian SLF.

WITHOUT CHANGING THE HP.

Now the taipan is the least agile ship. So it will be hit more often. It won't move far, either, so when it dies it will still be close to you. So the taipan is only "the best" if everyone fights like armies did in the 17th century: standing upright in the open and stock still.

And IIRC, the weapons on the guardian SLFs are effective on the bigger ships, nor just the drones. So if you were ACTUALLY cognizant of what the giardian SLFs are, you'd not use them while there are tharglets in space, you'd haul them out when you want to take out the mothership, your main ship would be the meat shield and the SLF would speed up the winning of the battle. OR the mothership would oneshot the SLF, which it would do with the taipan too, but in doing so it would NOT be shooting you.

You are, like many people who like combat, unable to think tactically like a wargamer. You have a set idea of how you want to fight and then you use the tactics that this desire requires you to use. Whilst an ACTUAL tactician would fit the tactics to what they have, not what they want to do, and see how to make best use of the assets, not complain about their tools.

 

[Fake Newts]

Actually by your words already uttered you clearly do not, because you are writing an expectation that is incompatible with what SLFs ARE, tactically speaking. What YOU are saying is not what they ARE but what they OUGHT to be.

First, writing in capitals is REALLY quite annoying. Second, that's not what I said, I said it's bizarre that the fighters balanced with low hull : high shielding are those that are intended to fight enemies that ubiquitously employ shield-bleed weaponry.

As for the rest of the post, what the hell are you talking about and how are you able to draw so many conclusions about my playstyle from one sentence?

Stop talking out of your proverbial.

 

[Speedcuffs]

AX/Guardian SLF=Garbage.

 

[DDastardly00]

How about just making them highly corrosion resistant? They become "Anti-thargoid" ships, then.

With all due respect, while I appreciate your feedback and ideas, I just don't this see this one making much of a difference in an AX combat zone when hull HPs are rated slow to begin with. To put it another way, if a guardian AX SLF lasts on average about 10 secs before being destroyed, making them highly corrosive resistant would make them last about 11-12 secs.

While I do not feel that is an adequate solution to the imbalance problem regarding the AX SLFs, I do thank you for taking the time to comment and offer your input.

 

[Morbad]

I find the GU-97 can last longer than any Guardian SLF against human ships.

In the hands of NPC crew, you are almost certainly correct.

The Guardian fighters are all rather sluggish in acceleration and have moderate rotationals, with a noticeable emphasis on the blue zone. NPCs tend to respond poorly to this.

Until last night I didn't have any Guardian fighters of my own, so my experience was with piloting them myself in multi-crew, and I can leverage that extra shielding much better than the NPCs.