Player affecting factions even in Pvt and Solo

[Rampant]

What about the argument for organic PvP in open play that affects the wider galaxy? Doesn't seem to be on your list there.

Sounds like you're trying to dictate how others play the game, which is something you guys usually speak like you're against...

The Powerplay idea was proposed by the lead developer, nobody forced them to bring it up, so naturally it will get discussed a lot - especially as Fdev have never confirmed what they're going to do one way or the other.

I'm staying on topic with PP in this thread, so didn't mention "organic PvP".

Whatever. You ask me "what about organic PvP" - I direct that question back to you, because PvP combat is not my thing.
It would also depend entirely on what you mean by "organic PvP" - whether that is out-and-out ganking solely of non-combat vessels or simply shooting at everything in sight, or picking targets that are PvP capable... whichever it is, this clearly requires an opt-in on the part of both players or groups of players... ie, to play in Open... but I re-iterate that this is available to you right now, just not in a served-on-a-plate format. Actually, nothing is served-on-a-plate in E: D, so I don't know why PvP combat should be any different?

Please don't put words in my mouth - I'm definitely NOT telling anyone how to play their game - I'm merely cataloguing the gameplay aspects that are available in the game right now. Like I said - if PP-oriented PvP combat is your want - then this is actually available right now - RIGHT NOW - however, I agree with you that this would only be for like minded PvP combat players.

If you are stating for a fact that "nobody" is PP in Open, then there would be a solid conclusion to be drawn form that. ("nobody" is a tall statement = time zones, platforms, instancing?)

When I asked what your metric is - is it winning at PP? Or, is it PvP combat? It would appear that if "nobody" is PP in Open, then the concensus is that the metric is winning at PP, and the further deduction is that players are, on the whole, less interested in PvP combat than they are at winning at PP.

Like I said - if there are a large group of players who would rather PvP combat - then it takes a quorum of LIKE MINDED individuals to eschew this winning metric, and go out for PvP combat instead.
There are things I like DOING in E: D that means I cannot do some other things that I also like to do. Often, activities are mutually exclusive. So what I say to myself is "Screw <that> bit, even though I'd like to go and do <that>, I'm off to do <this> instead, because I enjoy it more."

If there really were an entire horde of LIKE MINDED players, you'd be doing PvP combat much, much more often, I suspect. If I were a PvP combat lover, then I for one would certainly be out with a group of other players (PvP combat is optimumly served amongst a group, is it not?) and be saying Screw Hauling in PG - lets get out as a team and take the fight to the enemy - get a mixed fleet of players in combat ships and transport ships filled with merits, and raid the objective system in a coordinated fashion (Yeah - I'm military if you hadn't already guessed).
The fact that you keep saying that this isn't actually happening really undermines my confidence that what you are saying about PvP combat being so popular that it should be catered for by EXCLUSIVE content. Seems to be a minority appeal, simply from the fact that you all keep saying that there is nobody already doing this kind of stuff.
So, until you've all gone "screw merit farming in Solo and PG - lets get out to the more enjoyable PvP combat", then I'll simply believe that it's the winning at PP that is the priority and not the PvP combat aspect. Like I keep saying - nail your colours to the mast - and this content is available to you RIGHT NOW.

Please excuse me if I still don't see the issue being campaigned here.

Yours Aye

Mark H

 

[Robert Maynard]

LMAO You guys are hilarious. You know what Sandro said regarding PvP and powerplay, and you just can't bring yourselves to accept it.

SMH

He said that it was an investigation and not a fait accompli....

.... that was nearly a year ago. He went quiet on the topic about 10 months ago. We found out later that he'd left the project to work on something else for Frontier.

In a similar vein, Devs have indicated several times that they consider all game modes to be equal and valid ways to play the game - and some players just can't bring themselves to accept that.

In the BGS & Scenarios stream (and subsequent recap thread) it was made quite clear who the BGS is for, i.e. all players, regardless of platform or game mode - and some players can't bring themselves to accept that either....

 

[EponymousCowherd]

Open PvE and PvP tag advocates do it all the time, what are talking about?

But they are not advocating something that would turn solo and pg players into second class citizens.

So you'd rather we attack players who haven't signed up for anything. Got it

But you want to force solo and pg players into open to take part in PP, so that is exactly what you want.

 

[Rampant]

PvE groups already dominate BGS.

That part is grossly untrue.

Apparently, Open is "the most popular Mode" according to FDev.
We already all know that pretty much EVERYTHING we do in the game affects the BGS - so Open being the most popular Mode, by a "significant" margin, means that the BGS is categorically "dominated" by Open players, not the other way around.
Please stop making things up that sound as though they might support your viewpoint, because somebody like me will come along and forum-PvP own it, LOL. ( <- Meant in a polite, fun and nice way.)

Slainte Mhath

Mark H

 

[Lateralus]

But they are not advocating something that would turn solo and pg players into second class citizens.

No, they are proposing something that would end PvP piracy and powerplay in one swoop. Seems worse.

But you want to force solo and pg players into open to take part in PP, so that is exactly what you want.

Powerplay is entirely optional, is supposed to carry risk signing up to and is intended to make you the enemy of other players. This has been stated ad-nauseam by developers.

 

[Robert Maynard]

No, they are proposing something that would end PvP piracy and powerplay in one swoop. Seems worse.

PvP piracy relies on willing targets - if they choose not to play with the pirates (which they can already do) then the pirates are out of luck.

 

[The Replicated Man]

If you are stating for a fact that "nobody" is PP in Open, then there would be a solid conclusion to be drawn form that. ("nobody" is a tall statement = time zones, platforms, instancing?)

Although that might have something to do with it, that isn't the main issue.

The main issue is as follows: How is a Powerplay PvP pilot supposed to engage an enemy player who doesn't want to come into open?

Let's be honest here. Most people would choose to hide in solo in order to do Powerplay or BGS work rather than face the threat of a player encounter in open. Because most Powerplay pilots are comfortable running Paper Airplanes for ships and can't be bothered to throw a shield or any engineering on their merit hauling barge.

The overall negative reaction and hysteria regarding Open play and dare I say PvP is all too common when any of these topics are mentioned. People know that as soon as they hit that Open play button, their paper airplanes won't hold up against actual fully built ships.

The Desire to PvP is there by many already in open, but the other half are just too scared, or just don't want to do any PvP.

 

[Lateralus]

That part is grossly untrue.

Apparently, Open is "the most popular Mode" according to FDev.
We already all know that pretty much EVERYTHING we do in the game affects the BGS - so Open being the most popular Mode, by a "significant" margin, means that the BGS is categorically "dominated" by Open players, not the other way around.
Please stop making things up that sound as though they might support your viewpoint, because somebody like me will come along and forum-PvP own it, LOL. ( <- Meant in a polite, fun and nice way.)

Slainte Mhath

Mark H

lol what a flawed, broad-brush argument.

Name one PvP-focused group that dominates BGS

PvP piracy relies on willing targets - if they choose not to play with the pirates (which they can already do) then the pirates are out of luck.

Giving traders less incentive to play in regular open-play would obviously make it even harder to find anybody to pirate.

 

[EponymousCowherd]

Powerplay is entirely optional, is supposed to carry risk signing up to and is intended to make you the enemy of other players. This has been stated ad-nauseam by developers.

And that is the point. You want to take that option away from a large number of players.

 

[Lateralus]

And that is the point. You want to take that option away from a large number of players.

Yes, because PvP should not happen from solo or private groups.. It's clown-worldesque design.

 

[Rampant]

No, they are proposing something that would end PvP piracy and powerplay in one swoop. Seems worse.


Powerplay is entirely optional, is supposed to carry risk signing up to and is intended to make you the enemy of other players. This has been stated ad-nauseam by developers.

So - when you say "enemy" - it appears that you automatically and exclusively think of PvP combat and no other adversarial concept. There are legion of methods to "fight your enemy" over and above simple PvP combat. PP is not solely restricted to PvP combat. It's intrinsic and obvious in the design. Yet it appears that your are campaigning that it should be just about PvP combat and nothing else.

You also forget that a pledge who plays in PG or in Solo also has NPCs as "enemies" that might shoot solely because you're pledged to a "rival/enemy/opponent faction", so it isn't just all about the players being "the enemy".

 

[EponymousCowherd]

Yes, because PvP should not happen from solo or private groups.. It's clown-worldesque design.

That is your opinion. As you might have noticed, few here agree with you.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Let's be honest here. Most people would choose to hide in solo in order to do Powerplay or BGS work rather than face the threat of a player encounter in open. Because most Powerplay pilots are comfortable running Paper Airplanes for ships and can't be bothered to throw a shield or any engineering on their merit hauling barge.

The overall negative reaction and hysteria regarding Open play and dare I say PvP is all too common when any of these topics are mentioned. People know that as soon as they hit that Open play button, their paper airplanes won't hold up against actual fully built ships.

The Desire to PvP is there by many already in open, but the other half are just too scared, or just don't want to do any PvP.

If what you say is true, most people would choose to play Powerplay in solo rather than face the threat of a player encounter in Open. Wouldn't the logical conclusion be that those same players would no longer play Powerplay once it goes Open Only? You make a good point. The desire to PvP is there by many in Open. The others don't want to do any PvP.

You notice I shy away from loaded terms like "hide" and "scared". When you talk about hysteria it's wise to leave those terms at the door, or your comments might be seen as hysterical themselves.

Which would mean, that if Poweplay goes Open Only, those people would stop playing. They don't all of a sudden enjoy PvP because someone at Frontier flipped a switch. I wonder how many players would be left playing the prey, vs the number of players playing the hunters.

The better solution in my opinion, is to add a military aspect to Powerplay. Where battles between Federation Pilots have influence in the Powerplay universe. Where military actions can be countered by civilian actions and vice versa. Where PvP is central, instead of reactive. Where those in Open who desire PvP are pitted against those in Open who desire PvP.

 

[Rampant]

Although that might have something to do with it, that isn't the main issue.

The main issue is as follows: How is a Powerplay PvP pilot supposed to engage an enemy player who doesn't want to come into open?

Let's be honest here. Most people would choose to hide in solo in order to do Powerplay or BGS work rather than face the threat of a player encounter in open. Because most Powerplay pilots are comfortable running Paper Airplanes for ships and can't be bothered to throw a shield or any engineering on their merit hauling barge.

I am being honest. Unlike what I can gather from some others.

I have already outlined player's metrics - if winning is the metric that you give yourself, then of course it is optimised by playing in PG and Solo - I make no bones about that or try to hide that it is the efficient method. But is it "fun"??? Not sure it would be for me, but carry on - nothing to see here.
But if PvP combat is the metric that you give yourself - because you value fun over the metric of hauling in PG or Solo, then those players ought to be out in Open already - engaging in PvP combat and games of cat and mouse with mixed fleets.
At some point you are going to have to chose which is your church to worship within.

I'll ask you the same - Let's be honest here. Of those players who I keep hearing about being squirreled away in PG or Solo, and going about PP business in those Modes - HONESTLY - how many do you think might migrate to Open to do the same task there? I have my suspicions about numbers, but since we're being honest - let me hear what your deduction might be?

The overall negative reaction and hysteria regarding Open play and dare I say PvP is all too common when any of these topics are mentioned. People know that as soon as they hit that Open play button, their paper airplanes won't hold up against actual fully built ships.

The Desire to PvP is there by many already in open, but the other half are just too scared, or just don't want to do any PvP.

And there we have it ladies and gentlemen, the "scared" comment gets rolled out yet again.


I have written multiple posts about the desire to PvP (versus the desire to win at PP) - and mentioned that this PvP play is already freely and openly available to any player or group of players who desire to engage in it, so why is this not happening?

Be honest and let me know your thoughts about why this is not already happening... because not one single player has commented on this - not once.

 

[bladerunner900]

"Player affecting factions even in Pvt and Solo" is the norm. Anything else is just antithesis to the original concept and anathema to me. As for being scared, pfft... The only thing I'm scared of is... loosing the ability to choose. Although, not even that when all said and done. Games, as with life, comes and goes.

 

[Glen Fiddik]

The better solution in my opinion, is to add a military aspect to Powerplay. Where battles between Federation Pilots have influence in the Powerplay universe. Where military actions can be countered by civilian actions and vice versa. Where PvP is central, instead of reactive. Where those in Open who desire PvP are pitted against those in Open who desire PvP.

This would seem to be the most sensible way forward although some might object to not being able to use their custom built kill machine.

 

[Rampant]

lol what a flawed, broad-brush argument.

Name one PvP-focused group that dominates BGS


Giving traders less incentive to play in regular open-play would obviously make it even harder to find anybody to pirate.

Come again?

You honestly refuse to accept that the BGS is dominated by transactions made in Open play? - even though Open is officially the "most popular Mode".

(I never said anything about PvP player groups dominating the BGS - are you changing the goalposts?)

This is not a broad brush argument or generalisation, it is a solid and irrefutable conclusion. Unless you are going to make false assumptions that PvP players are the vast majority of Open population (they're not) and also that PvP players don't "earn Credits" and engage in other transactions that shape the BGS? (they clearly do)

I also notice the inclusion of the word "regular" next to the phrase "open-play", which leads me to believe that your personal opinion is that Open Mode is the "one true mode" and that other modes are "inferior" in some way. That is not the opinion of FDev, so needs to be challenged as a personal bias...

 

[Winterwalker]

yea thats not a reason to suddenly cut out a large chunk of the community from being able to take part though.

Sorry but that is a complete strawman, ANYBODY is able to log into the game in open. Powerplay then becomes a game with risks inherent to the PvP of it, yes but that does not prevent anyone from participating and makes it 'the advanced' tactical game it was always meant to be.

+1 this ..

Anyway, all I would recommend to Fdev is that they trial open-only PP (on the live server) for a month or so to see how well it works. If it doesn't work out then they can bin the idea.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Sorry but that is a complete strawman, ANYBODY is able to log into the game in open. Powerplay then becomes a game with risks inherent to the PvP of it, yes but that does not prevent anyone from participating and makes it 'the advanced' tactical game it was always meant to be.

Actually, no. Console players, who bought the base game (which includes Powerplay) don't need premium platform access to play the game - but can only play in Solo if they lack that premium access.

Whether one considers (or not) that gating content to Open (i.e. PvP-gating it) would adversely affect some other players, or not, the fact remains that PvP-gating Powerplay would effectively remove it from those players who have no interest in PvP, i.e. those who choose not to play in Open (and Frontier seem to be "well aware" that the majority of players don't get involved in PvP....).

 

[Lateralus]

That is your opinion. As you might have noticed, few here agree with you.

Most of the others have probably got tired beating their head against a brick wall and left. I don't blame them.. I'm probably silly for continuing the debate with the same people over and over.