Type-10 Balance Discussion - How to make the battle cow viable

[besieger]

I'm speaking from memory here, because I don't use the T-10 presently.

In HRES, for example, SLF distracts the attacker long enough for me to bring my main weapons (gimballed beam lasers) to bear. As the SLF is firing, support it with those weapons and then concentrate fire on the enemy, regardless of what the SLF is doing. Then move on to the next target and do the same again. (It may depend on the SLF pilot rank - If I remember correctly, I've usually used Expert.)

It's much tougher in a CZ, of course, and the SLF can go down quickly. AX, probably even faster.

With PvP mileage will vary greatly and I don't have a lot of experience with it. But I have used the SLF to escape interdiction successfully, because it distracts the Pirate Commander just long enough for me to gather my thoughts and hi-wake. But not always.

Yes even in a HIRes is no use really unless flown by a real player, the reality of the situation is that a fighter has pretty much 1HP and at some point something will look at it funny, further more the DPS of the fighters are incorrect as that is simply paper DPS, the effective DPS is far lower due to damage drop off.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

The only tangible value I'm getting out of using SLFs is by using them mining in a RES (Standard and below; above that becomes tricky as you tend to get ganged up on by NPC pirates) - in a T-10 of course. The SLF taking care of NPCs while carrying on mining is a surprisingly fun activity, and the bounties are a nice little bonus, even though minor in actual credit value. It's good if you want a bit more action in your mining experience.

The other reason is having them for attacking pirate wings - they can take care of or at least distract the Eagles etc. while I focus on the leader.

But given how expensive they are (both in credits, especially while having their trotters up in the lounge while I do non combat stuff, but also in Combat rank) I really don't know if it's really worth training them up to Elite.

Are they that noticeably better than say an Expert? I felt my (now dead) pilot, who was half way between Master/Dangerous, was able to survive quite a bit longer, but really not sure if he was actually dealing more damage, too. I still found that I had to do most of the work dealing even with smaller ships.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

You clearly have not flown this ship with a SLF .... it changes the balance of its power as soon as it is launched, and the T-10 can be used as a battle platform to support the SLF. The two can be made to work well together. To say it has "no value" invites criticism of your premise. Something I can't agree with.

I'm speaking from memory here, because I don't use the T-10 presently.

R u serious?

 

[[VR] Goooost]

They didnt take my suggestion of dedicated missile racks. I'll have to suggest it again. The point of the wings should be to mount missiles. Just single-purpose hardpoints. A lot of ships could use dedicated missile racks, like the clipper.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Does the spoiler placed utility slots provide the best top cover for things like PD? Another tweak that might benefit the T-10 would be to arrange utility slots in more of a defensive pattern, so if you want to fit PD you have superior coverage too.

 

[Swordpunch]

That would certainly be very interesting! No changes to the ship, just add another SLF and see what happens .

I said this before just give the type 10 a new module that is fixed for the SLF and allow us another free module for whatever else. Maybe even another SLF >

 

[dreampage]

Interesting thread. I'm currently thinking about buying a T-10. Again, because I have had one but I couldn't find a use for it. I'm not a combat player so I would use it as a multi-purpose vessel, trading, exploring, passengers maybe, that kind of thing. But I'm put off by the abysmal Supercruise turn rate which makes it a hassle to fly. I have no problem with its normal flight capabilities and I love how it looks - much better than the T-9 in my opinion. I just don't know if it was worth having one (money is not a factor). I'm undecided and I see many others are confused about its usefulness, too.

 

[100.rub]

Interesting thread. I'm currently thinking about buying a T-10. Again, because I have had one but I couldn't find a use for it. I'm not a combat player so I would use it as a multi-purpose vessel, trading, exploring, passengers maybe, that kind of thing. But I'm put off by the abysmal Supercruise turn rate which makes it a hassle to fly. I have no problem with its normal flight capabilities and I love how it looks - much better than the T-9 in my opinion. I just don't know if it was worth having one (money is not a factor). I'm undecided and I see many others are confused about its usefulness, too.

Anaconda is pretty much superior to T10 in all activities you mentioned.

 

[HunterMemnoch]

Anaconda is pretty much superior to T10 in all activities you mentioned.

People are allowed to like different ships even if they're not the META. For example, the Anaconda cockpit sucks for exploration because you can't see .

 

[HunterMemnoch]

Wow profanity filters?

 

[dreampage]

Anaconda is pretty much superior to T10 in all activities you mentioned.

I don't like that ship. Neither its looks nor the view from the cockpit. So I won't buy that. The T-10 seriously looks like something from an Alien movie (especially in military green) and it's really cool to me, I just don't know what to use it for.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

I feel like bumping the T10s shield tank abilities up a bit wouldn’t be a bad idea, maybe bring it more in line with the Anaconda.

Also, relocate the hardpoints towards the center so it can be covered in plasma accelerators as God intended.

 

[SpaceScania]

I don't like that ship. Neither its looks nor the view from the cockpit. So I won't buy that. The T-10 seriously looks like something from an Alien movie (especially in military green) and it's really cool to me, I just don't know what to use it for.

Yeah I am in the same boat. I bought a Type-10 because I think it is one of the cooler ships in the game, but I can't find a good role for it.

 

[100.rub]

I don't like that ship. Neither its looks nor the view from the cockpit. So I won't buy that. The T-10 seriously looks like something from an Alien movie (especially in military green) and it's really cool to me, I just don't know what to use it for.

I dont tell you to buy it, just pointing out how T10 has no niche nor strong side over other ships.

 

[Captain Willard]

I've had one sitting in the hangar forever, never had the nerve to take it out solo against the goids with 4 ax weapons. With the new inititave coming soon letting us add these new guardian weapons and not counting against the 4 ax weapons. I've deciced to build it up. We will see how many rebuys I'll be seeing. OH and thx for this thread.

 

[Vandellion]

I feel like bumping the T10s shield tank abilities up a bit wouldn’t be a bad idea, maybe bring it more in line with the Anaconda.

Also, relocate the hardpoints towards the center so it can be covered in plasma accelerators as God intended.

i have being playing with this ship from quite some time now and i got to say that this ship main problem lies in this 3 main things.
1) Hardpoint placement. (all class 3 should be in the upper side and the two class 2 that are in the upper side should go to bellow where the blue lines are in the image close to the class 2 there. That way they would be usable with fixed weapons especially rail guns that are in my opnion a must have weapon in a ship so slow that cant chase targets or close in with targets that are too far away free hitting u with rails long range.
2) Shield is way too weak. (needs a little buff)
3) Ship is way too heavy like i pointed out previously (or they lower it or give this thing a 8 propulsor)
The problem of the weight is that because the ship is heavy the way it is it become even more unbearable if you try to use the ship strenght that is the hull tanking. Reactive surface composite with heavy duty is almoust 200t with a few hull reinforcements and this thing becomes unmovable even with dirty drives.
See in the image that the ship already have better hardpoint placement. Two very close to the class 2 but frontier wanted to make thins thing su c k and they did it right.

 

[lenna]

What is the T-10 designed for?
The T-10 is from my view a ship designed to fill in the support role of the big ship line up with some added firepower while being slow as the name of the ship suggests... its designed to defend its space and do it well.

Currently however the T-10 struggles with this due to its extremely low speed and poor defense, the T-10 compared to the rest of the big ship line up is worse in every way other than hardpoint count but can never get in range or stay in range long enough to use those extra hardpoints. The anaconda is the closest of the big ships with a defending/support role though the Anaconda focuses on jump range over defenses and agility, this is fine as the Anaconda fills its role as a long range defense ship.

The T-10 was really designed for Anti-Xeno operations and was purposefully designed as a quick fix (a modified T9) for a perceived problem - this role fits it well IMO. Later, the Alliance introduced the Chieftain/Crusader/Challenger.

Depending on how you out fit it, the T10 can have 1k+ shields and hull which is respectable for any ship. The best way of describing the T-10 is a mobile weapons platform - c/f an AC-130 being a weaponised C-130.

I am interested to see what others think about this ship, its fun to fly and could be a competitive large ship to combat the annoying Imperial Cutter spam due to it being outright better.

This line of thinking I can not get behind - the Cutter has it's advantages but it is also the single most expensive ship in the game at the moment - the T-10 by co
mparison is the cheapest of the big 4 ships that are clearly designed for combat:-

1. Cutter - 1H/2L/4M
2. Corvette - 2H/1L/2M/2S
3. Anaconda - 1H/3L/2M/2S
4. T10D - 4L/3M/2S, the 4L added over the T-9

Given the lore based origins of the T10D (it was introduced around the same time as the return of the Thargoids IIRC), it is reasonably positioned. Arguably it only really shines when you use multi-crew (Gunner primarily for controlling L Turrets, and SLF pilot) but it still is a respectable PvE combat vessel. I would not expect it to perform well in PvP but this is primarily due to the lack of a Huge hard point. It does benefit from decent L sized weapon coverage if you use turrets in those slots.

 

[besieger]

The T-10 was really designed for Anti-Xeno operations and was purposefully designed as a quick fix (a modified T9) for a perceived problem - this role fits it well IMO. Later, the Alliance introduced the Chieftain/Crusader/Challenger.

Depending on how you out fit it, the T10 can have 1k+ shields and hull which is respectable for any ship. The best way of describing the T-10 is a mobile weapons platform - c/f an AC-130 being a weaponised C-130.


This line of thinking I can not get behind - the Cutter has it's advantages but it is also the single most expensive ship in the game at the moment - the T-10 by co
mparison is the cheapest of the big 4 ships that are clearly designed for combat:-

1. Cutter - 1H/2L/4M
2. Corvette - 2H/1L/2M/2S
3. Anaconda - 1H/3L/2M/2S
4. T10D - 4L/3M/2S, the 4L added over the T-9

Given the lore based origins of the T10D (it was introduced around the same time as the return of the Thargoids IIRC), it is reasonably positioned. Arguably it only really shines when you use multi-crew (Gunner primarily for controlling L Turrets, and SLF pilot) but it still is a respectable PvE combat vessel. I would not expect it to perform well in PvP but this is primarily due to the lack of a Huge hard point. It does benefit from decent L sized weapon coverage if you use turrets in those slots.

I am sorry but you have missed the entire point by a country mile and also given the stats you think are good, clearly do not understand what makes a viable ship in Elite, especially for big ships. Let me explain.

The T10 was NOT designed for AX combat, we can work this out based on both the description of the ship in-game and its hard-point layout, none of its hardpoints converge well enough to fight Thargoids well... this is a simple fact.

The description mentions being built around the return of the Thargoids as a military-combat ship using the same frame as the T9, this only suggests the T10 would look like a T9, nothing about AX combat or even being a trade ship. its assumed from its description its Lakon's version of a Anaconda or Imperial Cutter.

You mention that 1k Shields and Hull is good, this is so wrong... you will die in seconds with a shield that weak, also keep in mind the size of the shield bubble around the T10, its huge, you don't miss when you shoot at one, EVEN WITH CHAFF.

You also describe the T10 as mobile? no... its really not mobile and given your points about the T10 I can safely say you haven't flown one.


Now the comparison to the other large ships in the game, I like this one because you go based purely on hardpoint size and amount, again this is not a vaild method for working out if a ship will perform well in combat, and by combat I mean both AX, Normal and PVP, the T10 has a class 7 distro... a huge bottleneck for such a large amount of weapons.

You literally can't get the T10 to work with an all laser fit with a class 7 distro, a class 8 would still be hard. the fact is this ship was a half baked combat ship that Frontier didn't do any actual planning or testing with, you can see this from when it has to be buffed in the beginning, it had a Class 6 Power plant.

Finally you mention the lore of the game for why this is a awful ship, no... the lore of the game depicts the T10 as a solid combat ship.

 

[Florenus]

I don't like that ship. Neither its looks nor the view from the cockpit. So I won't buy that. The T-10 seriously looks like something from an Alien movie (especially in military green) and it's really cool to me, I just don't know what to use it for.

If you like it, use it for whatever you want.

I know every other big ship is probably better than T10 stat wise, but I fly it anyway.
I actually enjoy the fact it's imperfect, big and slow (and that it looks like space Flying Fortress).
Flying it actually feels like flying a big, heavy ship.

It might have problems winning PvP against dedicated and experienced gankers (it's probably the last ship you should pick for PvP), but I can leisurely select High wake target and jump while slurping coffee, which is good enough PvP for me
Having SLF and all but small hardpoints turreted, I actually enjoy PvE combat in it.

 

[lenna]

...

Actually, IMO you (and others) are totally off-base with your assessment/expectation of what the T10D should be capable. You are also completely wrong about me not having flown one as well, yes - I have other ships in my collection and often prefer flying them for personal reasons BUT that is besides the point.

As for 1k being a respectable amount of shielding - it is for PvE - certainly good enough for most free roaming encounters. This I know from personal experience flying it and other vessels. For PvP, things may be somewhat different but that is another story entirely (all bets are off in such a case) - anything substantially higher than 1k is pretty much OP for PvE - especially after taking into account engineering for resistance. The only consideration where significantly greater than 1k on the larger ships may be desirable IME is for landing on higher G worlds - even then a good pilot may find even no-shields not an issue in such a landing case.

Also, If you look at the timing of it's introduction in terms of universe time and the general description, it was clearly intended to be a short term answer to an immediate perceived problem. The long-term answer being the range of Alliance ships as I pointed out in my thread and you have summarily ignored.

T10D description from INARA:

The Type-10 Defender is the result of collaboration between the Alliance and Lakon Spaceways. With the threat of xeno-war looming, the Alliance's naval arm saw the urgent need for a weapons platform capable of withstanding heavy, sustained attack. Utilising a reinforced Type-9 chassis as a starting point, Lakon overhauled and geared every aspect of the design for combat, producing a military behemoth that could be produced in volume at short notice.

This used to be in-line with the in-game description which has since changed:

But ultimately, the gist of it is really no different on balance. The current in-game description is in-line with the current ship capabilities.

As for me calling it a "mobile weapons platform", you really need to learn what that means before spouting off and claiming the individual in question does not know what they are talking about. While the T10D is not particularly quick or manoeuvrable (neither is a requirement for the term I used) it is more than adequate IME.

As for the PD, how limiting it is depends on loadout choices. Originally it was released with a weaker C6 PD but this was latter increased by one level to C7. As for weapon placement, a lot depends on what weapons you fit - if you are talking about fixed/gimballed weapons then you perhaps have a point (convergence of the L hard points is not good) BUT use turreted weapons and the situation is somewhat different - especially when you consider using multi-crew.

As for my comparison with other ships in the game, it becomes quite relevant when you consider the fact that (a) the T10D does not have a Huge mounting point (which can be a game changer in big ship encounters due to differences in hull hardness) and (b) the experimental/guardian weapons started out as almost exclusively being Large mounting point based in the beginning - i.e. when the T10D was originally released.

Regardless of which of the big 4 I happen to be flying at the time, I have found them all capable of dealing with similar sized (and smaller) PvE human threats.