Type-10 Balance Discussion - How to make the battle cow viable

[Vandellion]

Actually, IMO you (and others) are totally off-base with your assessment/expectation of what the T10D should be capable. You are also completely wrong about me not having flown one as well, yes - I have other ships in my collection and often prefer flying them for personal reasons BUT that is besides the point.

As for 1k being a respectable amount of shielding - it is for PvE - certainly good enough for most free roaming encounters. This I know from personal experience flying it and other vessels. For PvP, things may be somewhat different but that is another story entirely (all bets are off in such a case) - anything substantially higher than 1k is pretty much OP for PvE - especially after taking into account engineering for resistance. The only consideration where significantly greater than 1k on the larger ships may be desirable IME is for landing on higher G worlds - even then a good pilot may find even no-shields not an issue in such a landing case.

Also, If you look at the timing of it's introduction in terms of universe time and the general description, it was clearly intended to be a short term answer to an immediate perceived problem. The long-term answer being the range of Alliance ships as I pointed out in my thread and you have summarily ignored.

T10D description from INARA:

This used to be in-line with the in-game description which has since changed:
View attachment 131364
But ultimately, the gist of it is really no different on balance. The current in-game description is in-line with the current ship capabilities.

As for me calling it a "mobile weapons platform", you really need to learn what that means before spouting off and claiming the individual in question does not know what they are talking about. While the T10D is not particularly quick or manoeuvrable (neither is a requirement for the term I used) it is more than adequate IME.

As for the PD, how limiting it is depends on loadout choices. Originally it was released with a weaker C6 PD but this was latter increased by one level to C7. As for weapon placement, a lot depends on what weapons you fit - if you are talking about fixed/gimballed weapons then you perhaps have a point (convergence of the L hard points is not good) BUT use turreted weapons and the situation is somewhat different - especially when you consider using multi-crew.

As for my comparison with other ships in the game, it becomes quite relevant when you consider the fact that (a) the T10D does not have a Huge mounting point (which can be a game changer in big ship encounters due to differences in hull hardness) and (b) the experimental/guardian weapons started out as almost exclusively being Large mounting point based in the beginning - i.e. when the T10D was originally released.

Regardless of which of the big 4 I happen to be flying at the time, I have found them all capable of dealing with similar sized PvE human threats.

To be honest everybody that does not use this ship say the same about the ship lore like that is set on stone or the only thing that this ship is suposed to be good at(do you really think that the guy that wrote that have killed any interceptor with the type 10?) Let me ask you again DO YOU REALLY?.
How many times have you used this ship for thargoid hunting? how many interceptors have you killed with it? How do you workaround the fact you dont have good hardpoint placement for gauss cannon? The reason why you dont use it is because it not good enough for you to bother using it and that is the harsh truth.

The reason that you didnt mention why you dont play this ship anymore is the same everibody is saying. The ship is regular at best in everithing it does "Other than looking cool" like besiger said a few weeks back. Is easy to sprout nonsense about some lore to justify the fact the ship s u cks in everithing it does especially thargoid hunting when you don't even use the da mn thing every day like some of us do and tried just about everithing to "make it work".

 

[lenna]

To be honest everybody that does not use this ship

Except you are ASSUMING I do not use the ship at all - which would be a false assumption on your part.

No, I do not use it for Thargoid hunting but that is besides the point I was making. It does not change the fact that lore based the rationale behind it's introduction was as per the INARA description. As for the Guardian Gauss cannons - they are S/M fixed weapons and not ideal for use with the T10D (or any other big ship for that matter).

The reason that you didnt mention why you dont play this ship anymore is the same everibody is saying.

As for the reasons why I may use other ships in preference to the T10D, the reasons are many and varied but nothing to do with the relative capabilities of it - which are fair and reasonable given it is the cheapest of the big 4.

I have at least one of every ship (except the Krait Phantom - intend to get it at some point but no rush) and use them all to varying degrees and for different things. Some I use more than others but I would recommend you not pretend to know my reasoning.

My absolute favourite of the big 4 is probably the Corvette but I do not fly it as much as I used to. The Cutter is fast but handles badly, the Anaconda has weapon placement issues regarding the underslung weapons, but the T10D is fine on the most part - the lack of a huge mounting is a bit of a downer but liveable with, the visibility from it's cockpit is a real joy though.

 

[besieger]

Except you are ASSUMING I do not use the ship at all - which would be a false assumption on your part.

No, I do not use it for Thargoid hunting but that is besides the point I was making. It does not change the fact that lore based the rationale behind it's introduction was as per the INARA description. As for the Guardian Gauss cannons - they are S/M fixed weapons and not ideal for use with the T10D (or any other big ship for that matter).


As for the reasons why I may use other ships in preference to the T10D, the reasons are many and varied but nothing to do with the relative capabilities of it - which are fair and reasonable given it is the cheapest of the big 4.

I have at least one of every ship (except the Krait Phantom - intend to get it at some point but no rush) and use them all to varying degrees and for different things. Some I use more than others but I would recommend you not pretend to know my reasoning.

My absolute favourite of the big 4 is probably the Corvette but I do not fly it as much as I used to. The Cutter is fast but handles badly, the Anaconda has weapon placement issues regarding the underslung weapons, but the T10D is fine on the most part - the lack of a huge mounting is a bit of a downer but liveable with, the visibility from it's cockpit is a real joy though.

Ok here we go again... you are just another player who has clearly not used the T10 much, unlike me and many other in this thread calling for a buff.

First off you say you fly the T10 but then go on to say you don't fly it much but not explaining why(We know why...), you also point out that Thargoid hunting wasn't your point, but a reply back says otherwise, you also claim that the Gauss Cannons are not ideal for any big ship, this is again complete false and further reinforces my point you do not take part in any of the combat or ship flying this thread is talking about.

ALL the other large ship can do AX combat with Gauss cannons fine, the T10 is the only one that has issues, you also continue to use the price of the ship as a point of balance, the T10 when fit is more expensive than a Anaconda or Corvette fit for the same situation, so please do some research before making baseless claims like that. we have cold hard numbers here.

You also finally make the point of the Anacondas weapon convergence... like really?! the Anaconda has the BEST weapon convergence of any Large ship in the game by far.

 

[Tiili]

As a t10 enthusiast, I wonder if it could at the very least get the highest mass lock factor? It has the most stock mass anyways so it's just strange that a cutter takes the gold in this contest as well

I wonder how a dedicated mine slot would work in it? Doesn't affect normal dps but makes flying straight at it and jousting a bit riskier

 

[besieger]

As a t10 enthusiast, I wonder if it could at the very least get the highest mass lock factor? It has the most stock mass anyways so it's just strange that a cutter takes the gold in this contest as well

I wonder how a dedicated mine slot would work in it? Doesn't affect normal dps but makes flying straight at it and jousting a bit riskier

A stronger shield and the highest masslock would be nice, also would fit into its "defender" role.

 

[Chaparral]

I completely agree with the OP that the T10 needs a buff.

My take on this ship is it is not designed as a pursuit cruiser, it is designed as a slow moving porcupine. Unfortunately, the hardpoint distribution is not truly consistent with the potential of this design, which is compounded by the penalties to gimbals and turrets.

My recommendation would be to vastly improve it's maneuverability (pitch and yaw), while preserving it's overall top forward/reverse speed.

I also agree with the OP about the hitbox profile of the ship, that being a giant pancake for hits (even during chaff).

Buffing the maneuverability would improve its capacity to dodge some shots, but I also agree that a slight increase to shields would be in order.

I must add that I tried to use the T10 as a miner, but it was completely outclassed by so many of the ships in this role (orca, phantom, clipper, krait II, even the anaconda and cutter). So now my T10 sits on the rack.

 

[Sylow]

Better shields sounds fine. I'd also so very much appreciate if the small hardpoints would become medium ones. (While the two medium on top then could turn into small ones, for balance reasons. ) It would make guardian rails much better on this ship. (The lower C2 converges well enough with the C1s, but the rest of the hardpoints if too far out. )

Unfortunately changing the hardpoints would require remodelling the ship. Which would probably require changes to all the paintjobs. That's unlikely to happen. So better shields probably is what we might actually get.

 

[HunterMemnoch]

At the very least, Better shields and judging by the model itself, larger thrusters too. I can't believe that with the highest mass it also doesn't have the highest Mass Lock. It's called MASS LOCK.

 

[Unknown Zombie]

Depending on how you out fit it, the T10 can have 1k+ shields and hull which is respectable for any ship. The best way of describing the T-10 is a mobile weapons platform - c/f an AC-130 being a weaponised C-130.

The T-10 is nothing like an AC-130. There is no situation in the game where any ship can fill an "AC-130 type" role. An AC-130 takes out ground targets from a distance/situation that retaliation is unlikely. This game is all about dogfighting, and an AC-130 does not do dogfighting.

Arguably it only really shines when you use multi-crew (Gunner primarily for controlling L Turrets, and SLF pilot) but it still is a respectable PvE combat vessel.

Multi-crew is nowhere near a state where a ship should be balanced around that. Currently there is no way that a multi-crew gunner is a better choice than winging with 3 other ships (which, in case you weren't aware, MC and Wings can't be done at the same time).

I would not expect it to perform well in PvP but this is primarily due to the lack of a Huge hard point. It does benefit from decent L sized weapon coverage if you use turrets in those slots.

There is too much of a penalty on turrets to even remotely say "just use turrets, and it'll be fine." They've got lower damage, are hard-countered by chaff (can't easily use them w/o a target unlike gimbals), and large turrets track so slowly that they are really more of just a nuisance to keep pressure on than an immediate threat.

Also, If you look at the timing of it's introduction in terms of universe time and the general description, it was clearly intended to be a short term answer to an immediate perceived problem. The long-term answer being the range of Alliance ships as I pointed out in my thread and you have summarily ignored.

Nobody is talking about those ships because this is a thread about the Type-10, and it really hurts your argument to say "these ships are better because the T-10 was an improvised stop-gap."

 

[Florenus]

I have not fought Thargoids, so I can't really comment on that, but I feel that some of you look at how T10 handles in fight through very specific lenses.
It might be right that

you dont have good hardpoint placement for gauss cannon?

but for some players as soon as some good weapon is introduced in the game, it becomes norm for them.
Everything not engineered up to 100% is worthless, because it's not optimal anymore.
Turreted weapons are crap, because they pack less of a puch, so who should bother, etc.

Maybe it wasn't designed for Gauss Cannon (specialized equipment that you must unlock through rather leghty grinding)?
I always saw it as designed to be a platform for 4 AX multicannons. Preferably turreted. Is it not enough to go bug hunting? (serious question)

For me it works great as a platform for turreted weapons, because whether the enemy is above, or below me, something always shoots at him and slow turning never bothered me.
When I manage to get enemy in front of me (not that hard in PvE) all Large and medium hardpoints can pour at him, and I'm also able to put some shots from my two railguns now and then.

I'm not arguing that T10 is great. It might be not optimal (especially for PvP) and is probably worse than others, but I think it's OK - we should have more ships in game, some of them flawed. Like in RL.

Some changes could probably be acceptable if they emphasize the role it was designed for, but I see people would like it to be tougher, have better weapons, be more manouverable, faster, less of a target.... hmm.

also - it's cheaper than the rest and doesn't require having any rank, so this also justifies it not being perfect to some extent.

 

[Vandellion]

Ok here we go again... you are just another player who has clearly not used the T10 much, unlike me and many other in this thread calling for a buff.

First off you say you fly the T10 but then go on to say you don't fly it much but not explaining why(We know why...), you also point out that Thargoid hunting wasn't your point, but a reply back says otherwise, you also claim that the Gauss Cannons are not ideal for any big ship, this is again complete false and further reinforces my point you do not take part in any of the combat or ship flying this thread is talking about.

ALL the other large ship can do AX combat with Gauss cannons fine, the T10 is the only one that has issues, you also continue to use the price of the ship as a point of balance, the T10 when fit is more expensive than a Anaconda or Corvette fit for the same situation, so please do some research before making baseless claims like that. we have cold hard numbers here.

You also finally make the point of the Anacondas weapon convergence... like really?! the Anaconda has the BEST weapon convergence of any Large ship in the game by far.

thanks... After that i dont think i need to say anything else to that guy.

Except you are ASSUMING I do not use the ship at all - which would be a false assumption on your part.

No, I do not use it for Thargoid hunting but that is besides the point I was making. It does not change the fact that lore based the rationale behind it's introduction was as per the INARA description. As for the Guardian Gauss cannons - they are S/M fixed weapons and not ideal for use with the T10D (or any other big ship for that matter).


As for the reasons why I may use other ships in preference to the T10D, the reasons are many and varied but nothing to do with the relative capabilities of it - which are fair and reasonable given it is the cheapest of the big 4.

I have at least one of every ship (except the Krait Phantom - intend to get it at some point but no rush) and use them all to varying degrees and for different things. Some I use more than others but I would recommend you not pretend to know my reasoning.

My absolute favourite of the big 4 is probably the Corvette but I do not fly it as much as I used to. The Cutter is fast but handles badly, the Anaconda has weapon placement issues regarding the underslung weapons, but the T10D is fine on the most part - the lack of a huge mounting is a bit of a downer but liveable with, the visibility from it's cockpit is a real joy though.

I would answer you but i think besiger have already said pretty mutch everithing that i was going to point out.

 

[Vandellion]

I have not fought Thargoids, so I can't really comment on that, but I feel that some of you look at how T10 handles in fight through very specific lenses.
It might be right that

but for some players as soon as some good weapon is introduced in the game, it becomes norm for them.
Everything not engineered up to 100% is worthless, because it's not optimal anymore.
Turreted weapons are crap, because they pack less of a puch, so who should bother, etc.

Maybe it wasn't designed for Gauss Cannon (specialized equipment that you must unlock through rather leghty grinding)?
I always saw it as designed to be a platform for 4 AX multicannons. Preferably turreted. Is it not enough to go bug hunting? (serious question)

For me it works great as a platform for turreted weapons, because whether the enemy is above, or below me, something always shoots at him and slow turning never bothered me.
When I manage to get enemy in front of me (not that hard in PvE) all Large and medium hardpoints can pour at him, and I'm also able to put some shots from my two railguns now and then.

I'm not arguing that T10 is great. It might be not optimal (especially for PvP) and is probably worse than others, but I think it's OK - we should have more ships in game, some of them flawed. Like in RL.

Some changes could probably be acceptable if they emphasize the role it was designed for, but I see people would like it to be tougher, have better weapons, be more manouverable, faster, less of a target.... hmm.

You say you dont go thargoid hunting so how can you know the value of a gauss cannon or any other weapon on that regard? The guy said the ship is fine because it was good at thargoid hunting so i said a few things that makes it unviable in comparison with other ships that are not made specific to thargoid hunting. Nowhere i said the gauss cannon is the norm or that it can't be done with other weapons.
You should look at the comment and take into account that it was a reply to another comment.
if i was looking at specific lenses so are you since as long as it works for you is good. Bug hunting assuming you are talking about scouts just about any other ship can do.
peace

 

[Vandellion]

Better shields sounds fine. I'd also so very much appreciate if the small hardpoints would become medium ones. (While the two medium on top then could turn into small ones, for balance reasons. ) It would make guardian rails much better on this ship. (The lower C2 converges well enough with the C1s, but the rest of the hardpoints if too far out. )

Unfortunately changing the hardpoints would require remodelling the ship. Which would probably require changes to all the paintjobs. That's unlikely to happen. So better shields probably is what we might actually get.

I can't agree more. The two small and the medium bellow work well enough but the rest is a mess too far away from each other like you pointed out.

The sad part is that in the lower part of the ship there is a space that looks like a hardpoint placement near the medium one that could be a good fit for the two upper medium hardpoints aswell.(that would make the gauss cannon viable alongside a lot of other fixed weapons)(there is a screenshot a few comments back that i point this out)

But unfortunately i don't think they are going to make those changes.

 

[lenna]

Ok here we go again... you are just another player who has clearly not used the T10 much, unlike me and many other in this thread calling for a buff.

False again - I have used it a fair amount and have an appreciation for it's limitations which are not that unreasonable.

You keep trying to claim I don't use it enough to have a clear picture of what it is capable of yet your claims lack any grounds in reality. There is no good reason why the T10D should be buffed any more than it has been to date.

Comparing the T10D with a Cutter is a bit like comparing a Lotus Elise/Exige with a Konnigsegg - an unfounded and irrational comparison.

The T10D was not designed from the ground up as a combat vessel, it was a modification of an existing craft (c/f my C-130/AC-130 reference) unlike the Anaconda, Corvette, and Cutter. In addition it is not insubstantially cheaper than any of those ships. Wanting such a cheaper big ship to compete in the same arena as craft designed from the ground up for combat is illogical and stinks of wanting to effectively have a cheaper I-WIN button for PvP.

The limitations the T10D does have are not overly restrictive nor unjustified.

 

[RELSPI]

Is it not enough to go bug hunting? (serious question)

Scouts perish to the T10 with AX turrets.
But against an interceptor, Gauss cannons are the meta for a reason. Those things shred hearts, and turrets just can't compete. At all.

Heck, in a DBS with 4 gauss cannons, I got further through a solo interceptor fight than I ever did with any AX ship without them. It wasn't even specced for AX.

 

[Speedcuffs]

False again - I have used it a fair amount and have an appreciation for it's limitations which are not that unreasonable.

You keep trying to claim I don't use it enough to have a clear picture of what it is capable of yet your claims lack any grounds in reality. There is no good reason why the T10D should be buffed any more than it has been to date.

Comparing the T10D with a Cutter is a bit like comparing a Lotus Elise/Exige with a Konnigsegg - an unfounded and irrational comparison.

The T10D was not designed from the ground up as a combat vessel, it was a modification of an existing craft (c/f my C-130/AC-130 reference) unlike the Anaconda, Corvette, and Cutter. In addition it is not insubstantially cheaper than any of those ships. Wanting such a cheaper big ship to compete in the same arena as craft designed from the ground up for combat is illogical and stinks of wanting to effectively have a cheaper I-WIN button for PvP.

The limitations the T10D does have are not overly restrictive nor unjustified.

It's wicked for scouts, also... er...

 

[lenna]

Scouts perish to the T10 with AX turrets.
But against an interceptor, Gauss cannons are the meta for a reason. Those things shred hearts, and turrets just can't compete. At all.

Primarily due to damage type differences (or so I am led to believe) - AX Turrets are Kinetic damage, while the Gauss cannons are predominantly Thermal.

Of course, regular (non-AX/non-Guardian) Absolute/Thermal/Kinetic weapons are much less effective for some reason best known to FD shrug. Probably covered in the lore somewhere and somehow - not been interested enough to look into the whys of it.

 

[RELSPI]

Primarily due to damage type differences (or so I am led to believe) - AX Turrets are Kinetic damage, while the Gauss cannons are predominantly Thermal.

Of course, regular (non-AX/non-Guardian) Absolute/Thermal/Kinetic weapons are much less effective for some reason best known to FD shrug. Probably covered in the lore somewhere and somehow - not been interested enough to look into the whys of it.

AX weapons use a special corrosive compound that eats away at Thargoid hulls, and Guardian tech is naturally just really good at killing Thargoids because that's what it was built for at the time, before the Guardians all killed each other.

 

[lenna]

It's wicked for scouts, also... er...

To be fair - if you keep in mind the basis of it's origins "a cheap rush job to help deal with the Thargoid threat" it is not that bad a craft, was not an ideal design but one born of apparent necessity and limited because of that. It was however effectively superseded by the Alliance series of craft and if I were to use any ship against Thargoids it would probably be one of them rather than the T10D. That does not mean the T10D is useless though, it is just not what some would like it to be (however unjustifiable that want may be).

 

[Rick6549]

These all sound like good ideas. Being able to mass lock any ship would only give it a few more seconds to shoot, everything could still out run it but it might be able to keep up for longer. And yes supercruise handling needs to be changed.