Alliance Challenger vs. FDL: which is better for combat (incl. thargds) and why? - PvE only

Deleted member 182079

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When I fight anything bigger than a cyclops, I just use the three medium gauss and put a flak in the large. I agree it's an essential carry. Regarding armor, I'm a lazy, lazy thargoid hunter, I use my pvp ships and simply swap res boosters for HD ones, weapons for AX and head out. This is one of my problems with Thargoid content, that to be optimal you have to have an entire ship totally dedicated to something that I only do once or twice a month. I also use a biweave against thargoids in the challenger and Krait.

Another thing I do is put three gauss on the krait (one on the middle large and both the mediums) and use TWO flak launchers in the other two larges, this devastates the large swarms and is useful in CZs when you may need a lot of flak ammo (in which case, I use one til it runs out, then switch to the other).
I quite like the idea of dedicated ships - especially with Thargoid builds they're quite easy to build as long as you have unlocked the Guardian modules. No need to engineer HRPs and weapons for example (rest still needs it of course).

I've tried the Krait Mk2 briefly before and agree it's a formidable ship for this purpose.

However, because I always prefer the sub-optimal route, I refitted my explorer Phantom and made it a dedicated Scout hunter. It's fast, nimble, has 4 hardpoints in which I put AX MC turrets. Works quite well really. But the Mk2 would definitely be the better option given the extra large hardpoint.

And as others have said, the Challenger looks the part, especially in Midnight Black:

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I quite like the idea of dedicated ships - especially with Thargoid builds they're quite easy to build as long as you have unlocked the Guardian modules. No need to engineer HRPs and weapons for example (rest still needs it of course).

I've tried the Krait Mk2 briefly before and agree it's a formidable ship for this purpose.

However, because I always prefer the sub-optimal route, I refitted my explorer Phantom and made it a dedicated Scout hunter. It's fast, nimble, has 4 hardpoints in which I put AX MC turrets. Works quite well really. But the Mk2 would definitely be the better option given the extra large hardpoint.

And as others have said, the Challenger looks the part, especially in Midnight Black:

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Every one of my ships is midnight black. :) I hear you on not wanting to take the standard route, this why you won't find me flying an fdl in pvp very often. ;)
 

Deleted member 182079

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Every one of my ships is midnight black. :) I hear you on not wanting to take the standard route, this why you won't find me flying an fdl in pvp very often. ;)
Good man:) I went on a rampage during the Midnight Black sales... my wallet wasn't happy but many (not all) of my ships have that paintjob option now. Including my SRV. My favourite is still the Python, it looks so much better with it:

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Deleted member 182079

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I even got one for my Beluga, with predictable posts on this forum at the time:D Although I prefer the Ember pack on that, it's so so shiny (well, with around 25% paint left not so much anymore).
 
Can I connect to the topic?
I need some advice in Challenger build. Is there option to make something like PvE + PvP build? I mean mostly for PvE but sometimes PvP.
My Challenger is G5 and G4 engineered. It has 2571 raw integrity and 745 raw MJ of shields with 6A Shield generator (G5 Reinforced + Fast charge) and 2 shield boosters (Thermal res. + thermo block, Heavy Duty + thermo block).
What will be the best for, let's call it: 'survivability'? I mean, to stay longer on battlefield. Weaker Bi-Wave shields with faster charge or normal shields, but stronger?
 
Thargoids = chally by a long shot, much better hull and slots for decontamination limpets (and hull repair if desired). No contest IMO.

Other... Eh depends. Do you feel like having to wait for your FdL to be transported to wherever you want to fight? If you don't mind that, probs FdL is better since it's a pure murder machine. But Chally has tons of internals and can fit a nice scoop, so you can get to the cute little PvE homies and stomp them sooner without having to wait for a ship to arrive in the shipyard. Since it's PvE so either a well built Chally or FdL should be able to crush just about anything.

I can see it this way. Sure the FDL can have much better shields, but usually the Challenger provides all you need. While having a bit more space to work with. And for Thargoids i'd always pick the Challenger over the FLD.

The 7 hardpoints make a difference, especially if you go for AX CZs. You can use 4 of the hardpoints for guardian weapons. And some of them are also close enough together that you can combine guardian gauss very well. The rest you fill up with regular weapons, which you use to kill scouts.
 
Can I connect to the topic?
I need some advice in Challenger build. Is there option to make something like PvE + PvP build? I mean mostly for PvE but sometimes PvP.
My Challenger is G5 and G4 engineered. It has 2571 raw integrity and 745 raw MJ of shields with 6A Shield generator (G5 Reinforced + Fast charge) and 2 shield boosters (Thermal res. + thermo block, Heavy Duty + thermo block).
What will be the best for, let's call it: 'survivability'? I mean, to stay longer on battlefield. Weaker Bi-Wave shields with faster charge or normal shields, but stronger?
Try to aim for the build I posted earlier. There is almost no situation in which an A rated shield should be used, either you want a prismatic for maximum hull protection, or you have a massive hull and want fast recharge in order to get a 'heal' every few minutes, in which case you use a biweave. A rated is a poor compromise of both with not enough mj and not enough recharge. On the challenger you definitely want a biweave. The build I posted above has as many mj as your build but recharges in ONE minute, plus nearly 5k integrity (actually 5k if you don't need the interdictor and put another HRP in place of the size 2 MRP and put an MRP in the size 1 slot instead of the interdictor). :)
 
Try to aim for the build I posted earlier. There is almost no situation in which an A rated shield should be used, either you want a prismatic for maximum hull protection, or you have a massive hull and want fast recharge in order to get a 'heal' every few minutes, in which case you use a biweave. A rated is a poor compromise of both with not enough mj and not enough recharge. On the challenger you definitely want a biweave. The build I posted above has as many mj as your build but recharges in ONE minute, plus nearly 5k integrity (actually 5k if you don't need the interdictor and put another HRP in place of the size 2 MRP and put an MRP in the size 1 slot instead of the interdictor). :)
What he said (y)
 

Deleted member 182079

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The one thing I will say about the Challenger is this though - G5 dirty drag drives are a must if you're planning to fight interceptors. Speed is as important as HP, and stock or even mildly engineered the ship's a bit on the slow side. Mine hits about 480m/s while boosting iirc, which is fair considering it's packed with armour.

Plus, if you're fighting in a wing, you'll want to be able to keep up with your wing mates.
 
I'm a bit curious, on the Alliance ships I often put beam lasers into the small hardpoints; they seem to hit heavily compared to other small weapons. They are pretty good all around weapons, but most of you guys haven't mentioned beams for your builds (one CMDR mentioned using mediums). I haven't done any xeno hunting yet, does beam laser effectiveness go down against Thargoids?
 
I'm a bit curious, on the Alliance ships I often put beam lasers into the small hardpoints; they seem to hit heavily compared to other small weapons. They are pretty good all around weapons, but most of you guys haven't mentioned beams for your builds (one CMDR mentioned using mediums). I haven't done any xeno hunting yet, does beam laser effectiveness go down against Thargoids?
Beams are quite juicy and lack many useful special effects compared to the high damage, high utility alternatives of frags, railguns, or a small corrosive multicannon, but you can make them work. If efficient. In pve. Some people are really effective with beams in pvp, but I see it as quite an advanced weapon to use well, due to the falloff of efficient and the juiciness of any other mod. Can be good if you can dictate the range, which you can in pve in most cases of course.
 
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Beams are quite juicy and lack many useful special effects compared to the high damage, high utility alternatives of frags, railguns, or a small corrosive multicannon, but you can make them work. If efficient. In pve. Some people are really effective with beams in pvp, but I see it as quite an advanced weapon to use well, due to the falloff of efficient and the juiciness of any other mod. Can be good if you can dictate the range, which you can in pve in most cases of course.
I use a lot of "renewable" weapons (ie no ammo) due to long hunting sessions where I don't want to stop to restock. I have noticed that beams take a bit longer to adjust to target movement than other lasers do; that seems to be a hidden stat but it's pretty noticable if you're looking for it.

Thanks for your detailed feedback, good stuff! :)
 
I'm a bit curious, on the Alliance ships I often put beam lasers into the small hardpoints; they seem to hit heavily compared to other small weapons. They are pretty good all around weapons, but most of you guys haven't mentioned beams for your builds (one CMDR mentioned using mediums). I haven't done any xeno hunting yet, does beam laser effectiveness go down against Thargoids?

In my experience beams are very power hungry (both in power plant requirements and distributor draw) and most of the time I tried them I was disappointed with their overall performance.

On the other hand, I'm quite happy with using 3 small fixed cannons on my Challenger, together with a large fixed cannon. While these have different shot speeds which make it impossible to hit moving targets with all projectiles, at the same time the "spread" this creates makes it more likely that some of them will hit. This setup is quite devastating at close range and very good at module sniping, as with 4 cannon shots it's pretty much guaranteed that at least one will penetrate the hull and cause module damage.

I use medium gimballed pulse lasers with focused mod in the bottom hardpoints, which I find superior to (efficient) beams in most cases - while their listed DPS value is lower, they need little power and focused mod increases range up to 2x and piercing value up to 3x - so in practice their damage is much higher than beams, especially against hull.
 
Somewhat related:

Did anyone try out the Challenger with quad Gauss in the c3 and the c1s? Or does it melt then?

I'm tempted to do the following build when I'm back in the bubble sometime in the future...
 

Deleted member 182079

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Somewhat related:

Did anyone try out the Challenger with quad Gauss in the c3 and the c1s? Or does it melt then?

I'm tempted to do the following build when I'm back in the bubble sometime in the future...
I tried it before and it can work but don't like the waste of the large hard point on a size 2 module. Heat will also be higher ofc. I prefer a MC turret or shard cannon in the size 3. The former for scouts, the latter for exposing the heart of interceptors.
 
It's always interesting when these threads come up. You see everybody posting their thoughts based on their own experience and skill levels. Because half of these people are pve exclusive, they never get to see what these ships can really do when minmaxed to oblivion. Nor is minmaxing to oblivion required for a pve pilot. So where do you (where do I) draw the line? Do I advise based on mediocre skill level and engineering desire, or do I just say what is best under all the optimal circumstances and assume the pilot will engineer everything g5 as I suggest...

The problem is the FDL in this. It;s such a finicky build, as soon as you add another cell or booster, you need to rethink the power, as soon as you rethink the power, you need to rethink the heat gen, as soon as you rethink the heat gen, you need to rethink the weight (this is a mild exaggeration, but you get what I mean, you can chase 3 glasses of water with a jug trying to make them exactly the same, but you'll be forever adding a little more to one, then another, then another).

The main folly being stated in this thread is that in pve, the FDL has better survivability because of its huge shields, this is just plain wrong. The 'effective health' of a ship, is a calculation based on its shield and armor values, anticipated pips to systems at any given moment and of course, innate resistances applied by engineering. The challenger has more raw hp in its hull than even a fully g5 engineered FDL does in it's shield AND hull.

For its hull size, the challenger is the tankiest ship in the game, its effective health with a fast charge biweave is nearly DOUBLE that of a prismatic FDL. In PvE you don't care if your shields go down in the challenger, NPCs don't module snipe, so that MASSIVE 5k (if you minmax) hull, is already more raw mj than the FDL WITH its shield. Now add the fact that you've got a 700ish mj biweave AS WELL (which if you're smart you've got 4 pips in when under fire, making it last literally forever in pve). When that goes down, it takes about 1 minute to come back up at half strength. Now add the fact it has SEVEN hardpoints, pitches like a dream and is easy to fly.

The FDLs advantages are...good initial shield values and tons of boosters, plus strong lateral thrusters, indeed, BUT, this huge shield gives you power issues and it has few internals, so you are all shield. The typical pve builld would be prismatic (because of that weak hull and the fact that NPCs use gimballed and hitscan weapons mainly, negating any chance for a biweave to get much recharge). Even an A rated shield would be more useful in the average compromised nav, than a biweave, cos in the ferdie you do not want to expose your hull, if you do it's time to leave. In the challenger you're barely getting started.

The reason the FDL is king is because it has the maneuverability to put a lot of fire on target and avoid a lot of fire, but that takes a lot of skill, and is simply not needed in PvE, and therefore, there is no need to live with its disadvantages (finicky pip management, finicky stall-y flight model, bad pitch if flown wrong, no hull).

Bottom line without going into insane detail on every point, this is absolutley no contest, the Challenger is BY MILES the superior PvE ship, especially for thargoids due to their phasing attacks, you need that hull. One thing about thargoids though, the challenger's hardpoints aren't exactly ideal for ax weaponry. Do not use any AX stuff in the small hardpoints, it's a waste of a slot, so that only leaves you the three belly mediums and the top mount large. I put three gauss in the mediums and a plasma charger in the large, but in hindsight, I should have put two gauss in two of the mediums, a medium shard in the spare medium and a large shard in the large.

The FDL is vastly superior in pvp though, it can hit and not be hit due to its agility in the hands of a skilled pilot.

Here's a base challenger build for you (sorry, forgot to add it, please see a later post where I have now added it). I mained this ship in pve and pvp since it was released, until about a month ago, when I switched to a Krait, simply because it's bigger, superior and has more of everything as a hybrid. Which brings me to the final point...

The Krait is far superior to both in pve and arguably a match for the FDL in pvp as well. ;)

A lot of extremely interesting information here for me.
Thank you for taking the time.
 
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