General / Off-Topic Let's Have A Debate: To Be, Or Not To Be Vegan? That Is The Question ...

[WingardiumLevicoaster]

Stereotype or not, it's what was there.
But the options are there... I have tried some of them... but if I'm eating vegetables I prefer them not to be trying to imitate meat, tbh.

There are a lot of lovely vegetable based dishes out there or tofu (which is nothing like meat). Even a 'veggie' burger isn't trying to be meat. It's a preference thing, vegan or not to eat the false meat products. Some do, some don't. The biggest false meat consumers in the UK are meat eaters though, in the diet market (Quorn).

At the same time, I never understand people up in arms about imitation meat processed products. Sausages and burgers are hardly meat in a pure form. It just happens to be a handy shape for eating. Though all processed food is unhealthy anyway.. but veganism isn't about health generally. That's a plant based diet.

 

[WingardiumLevicoaster]

Thats what I dont get and which comes across hypocritical to me. Refuse meat and everything that animals suffered for....sure. Why do people crave sausage formed veg patties then? Is it kind of a transition help?

1. for some people yes it is a transition
2. Not all vegetarian/vegan sausages and burgers taste like meat or are supposed to
3. As I said above it's a handy shape
4. It's nice to have variation and old favourite dishes
5. A lot of people like meat but don't want to partake in it ethically. Why not have the taste without the harm.
6. A lot of fake meat is eaten by omnivores
7. Non processed vegan foods take preparation. You can't just stick a lentil curry under the grill..
8. Easy way to get protein foods instead of preparing tofu, beans, lentils etc. as it takes time.


Also, why do you eat meat shaped into carrots and aubergines, flat mushrooms?

 

[Silure]

Went to a vegan restaurant once, for a friend's birthday. Everyone looked malnourished!

Mike Tyson is a vegan.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

It's morally wrong to farm animals for food. How they are treated while alive or killed is not ethical, or fair to the animals.

My main issue with this one is that many species or breeds of animals would be wiped out overnight. The only reason why they are alive is because we farm them. Is that morally good, probably not, but when it comes to feeding you family, you won't be farming these animals anymore, you will be farming plants of some kind.

It is an unfortunate fact that many animals are only alive because we farm them.

Eating meat, especially red meat, is bad for your health. Meat is too fatty and too full of carbohydrates or fatty acids.

Not really accurate if you eat in moderation. Red meats are high in protein, vitamins and minerals, especially iron which is very good for you. White meat is healthier and high in protein.

It's just not sustainable economically. It's much better to have plant based food, easier to manage and less environmentally damaging.

Yes, hence the reason why we should cut down on our meat in-take, not remove it altogether. What I think should be done is have all meat made Freerange/Freedom food by law, this will reduce the amount that is eaten as it will be more expensive, they will live in a more natural way and have a better quality of life in general before being consumed and there will be less of them.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Mike Tyson is a vegan.

The Diplodocus too.

 

[WingardiumLevicoaster]

My main issue with this one is that many species or breeds of animals would be wiped out overnight. The only reason why they are alive is because we farm them. Is that morally good, probably not, but when it comes to feeding you family, you won't be farming these animals anymore, you will be farming plants of some kind.

It is an unfortunate fact that many animals are only alive because we farm them.


Not really accurate if you eat in moderation. Red meats are high in protein, vitamins and minerals, especially iron which is very good for you. White meat is healthier and high in protein.


Yes, hence the reason why we should cut down on our meat in-take, not remove it altogether. What I think should be done is have all meat made Freerange/Freedom food by law, this will reduce the amount that is eaten as it will be more expensive, they will live in a more natural way and have a better quality of life in general before being consumed and there will be less of them.

Free range in the UK in terms of chickens just means they have outside access and are not caged. Many never make it outside because of the scale of production. The laws would need to be redefined to what free range actually means.

No life is also better than a factory farmed one. Though I don't believe these animals would cease to exist. Would we just let them become exinct? No. There would be far less of them, which for an environmental standpoint is necessary.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Free range in the UK in terms of chickens just means they have outside access and are not caged. Many never make it outside because of the scale of production. The laws would need to be redefined to what free range actually means.

No life is also better than a factory farmed one. Though I don't believe these animals would cease to exist. Would we just let them become exinct? No. There would be far less of them, which for an environmental standpoint is necessary.

When I mean free range, I mean proper free range.

 

[ArtiX]

1. for some people yes it is a transition
2. Not all vegetarian/vegan sausages and burgers taste like meat or are supposed to
3. As I said above it's a handy shape
4. It's nice to have variation and old favourite dishes
5. A lot of people like meat but don't want to partake in it ethically. Why not have the taste without the harm.
6. A lot of fake meat is eaten by omnivores
7. Non processed vegan foods take preparation. You can't just stick a lentil curry under the grill..
8. Easy way to get protein foods instead of preparing tofu, beans, lentils etc. as it takes time.


Also, why do you eat meat shaped into carrots and aubergines, flat mushrooms?

I would say the main reason for the optical similarity is.. well let's pack this into a picturesque example:

We mostly eat what our societal "instincts" tell us to be good food and what we would rather (not all, but most ppl) refrain from eating,
so let's assume there were Tarantula-shaped Tofu bits (and i'm pretty sure they actually exist somewhere in Asia or South America, but let's stick to western food conformities in this example), would you prefer to buy these instead of the meat-patty shaped tofu? or even the plain tofu? Well, some might buy it as sort of a prank or for the fun of it. But these instincts tell us what we would usually prefer (the majority, not all, not everyone) so from a marketing perspective, and to attract people who never tried such foods before,
it is preferable to liken the shape and sometimes the taste to something one would usually enjoy.

PS: Plants are lifeforms, too! Free the Plants!!

 

[MTBFritz]

The replies so far in regards to the meat imitations is pretty interesting to me because I miss some of the perspectives due to my own view.

I do eat meat and even tho I often go long stretches without any there comes the time when I suddenly crave it and want some. At that point I couldnt care less how the stuff I eat looks like. It needs to have the texture and taste of meat (and of course that means that even tho these two things are fulfilled doesnt mean I eat meant in anyway, thanks chemistry).

So maybe I would be more extreme when I decided to go vegan because if I refused to eat meat that would go for meat shaped replacements as well.

I m not sure I can easily accept the argument that meat shaped food is "practical" because if that was the case the form would ve been duplicated a long time ago yet this only came to my attention since the vegan movement started

 

[Morbad]

It is an unfortunate fact that many animals are only alive because we farm them.

Most of these animals have no other ecological niche and serve no purpose without people to eat them. They were created by people (via many thousands of years of animal husbandry and selective breeding) and when people stop needing them, or find something better than them, they will cease to be perpetuated, and rightfully so.

especially iron which is very good for you.

I take an iron-free multi-vitamin and have reduced my intake of fortified grain products, as well as red meat, because I get too much iron.

 

[WingardiumLevicoaster]

The replies so far in regards to the meat imitations is pretty interesting to me because I miss some of the perspectives due to my own view.

I do eat meat and even tho I often go long stretches without any there comes the time when I suddenly crave it and want some. At that point I couldnt care less how the stuff I eat looks like. It needs to have the texture and taste of meat (and of course that means that even tho these two things are fulfilled doesnt mean I eat meant in anyway, thanks chemistry).

So maybe I would be more extreme when I decided to go vegan because if I refused to eat meat that would go for meat shaped replacements as well.

I m not sure I can easily accept the argument that meat shaped food is "practical" because if that was the case the form would ve been duplicated a long time ago yet this only came to my attention since the vegan movement started

I will still argue sausages and burgers are not meat shape! A steak , yes, a chicken breast , yes. A sausage or burger is an unnatural shape where the ingredients are processed into the shape.

 

[WingardiumLevicoaster]

I would say the main reason for the optical similarity is.. well let's pack this into a picturesque example:

We mostly eat what our societal "instincts" tell us to be good food and what we would rather (not all, but most ppl) refrain from eating,
so let's assume there were Tarantula-shaped Tofu bits (and i'm pretty sure they actually exist somewhere in Asia or South America, but let's stick to western food conformities in this example), would you prefer to buy these instead of the meat-patty shaped tofu? or even the plain tofu? Well, some might buy it as sort of a prank or for the fun of it. But these instincts tell us what we would usually prefer (the majority, not all, not everyone) so from a marketing perspective, and to attract people who never tried such foods before,
it is preferable to liken the shape and sometimes the taste to something one would usually enjoy.

PS: Plants are lifeforms, too! Free the Plants!!

I would try it. I have tried vegan caviar and blue cheese because it wasn't the real thing , and the idea of both disgust me. Was a safe way. They were both horrible and tasted as expected.

 

[ArtiX]

....Most of these animals have no other ecological niche and serve no purpose without people to eat them. ......

......and when people stop needing them, or find something better than them, they will cease to be perpetuated, and rightfully so.....

so the right to live doesn't apply to them because they were force-bred and domesticated over centuries and millenia even?
That, once again is a really arrogant perspective coming from you.

It's like saying, Slaves are not the same worth as their Slavers, because they were "domesticated" and only have a use in doing labour for their masters.

Or, people of other nations are only there to serve your own's purposes. It's such a blatantly dull argument, i don't even know what to say, Morbad.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Thats what I dont get and which comes across hypocritical to me. Refuse meat and everything that animals suffered for....sure. Why do people crave sausage formed veg patties then? Is it kind of a transition help?

Because they are tasty?

 

[Shinji Ikari]

When I mean free range, I mean proper free range.

Is that feasable in a scale large enough to supply the current demand?

 

[MTBFritz]

Because they are tasty?

You can have the taste without eating vegan stuff disguised as meat---people intentionally buy meat formed food as if they are "missing" meat and want the illusion of meat to overcome the urge....thats how I perceive it

 

[Morbad]

so the right to live doesn't apply to them because they were force-bred and domesticated over centuries and millenia even?

No, the right to live doesn't apply to them because they aren't sentient.

It's like saying, Slaves are not the same worth as their Slavers, because they were "domesticated" and only have a use in doing labour for their masters.

Or, people of other nations are only there to serve your own's purposes. It's such a blatantly dull argument, i don't even know what to say, Morbad.

That's your completely erroneous assumption, not any argument I have ever come close to making or implying.

 

[MTBFritz]

Is that feasable in a scale large enough to supply the current demand?

Thats the thing....if you consider how much more space we need to grow plants there simply is not enough usable space to accomodate all the lifestock we require to provide the necessary nourishment. Tho bigger factors are the massively increased cost in keeping them in such conditions as well as the reduced yield (which is actually the number one reason why "bio" produce is so expensive)

 

[MTBFritz]

No, the right to live doesn't apply to them because they aren't sentient.

I strongly disagree with your opinion. You realize that humans are simply animals as well as any other species on the planet? And dogs, cats, dolphins, whales and I dont know how many more species which are labeled "sentient" are still treated like objects...that includes humans or maybe you dont know whats happening in Africa as we speak?

The superiority argument is laughable and simply not suitable in this discussion. As the species at the top of the food chain we also have obligations and duties due to our capabilitues even tho many people dont realize that and behave in a destructive manner.

 

[Morbad]

I strongly disagree with your opinion. You realize that humans are simply animals as well as any other species on the planet? And dogs, cats, dolphins, whales and I dont know how many more species which are labeled "sentient" are still treated like objects...that includes humans or maybe you dont know whats happening in Africa as we speak?

The superiority argument is laughable and simply not suitable in this discussion. As the species at the top of the food chain we also have obligations and duties due to our capabilitues even tho many people dont realize that and behave in a destructive manner.

For me, it's simple. Something is either fully sentient and thus a person, or not and thus an object. Those other labels and categorizations are mostly meaningless.

There are plenty of objects I value, and plenty of reasons, even an obligation, to preserve various objects for broader benefits they may provide to people, but I do not grant objects themselves any 'rights'.