Against a maxed out pvp ship, which didn't have the equal sacrifice requirement due to the way engineering is designed. I'm well aware the trade off on shields, as I said I'm not flying anywhere without them regardless which activity or game mode. I'm not criticizing anyone or any play style here, only engineering the way it is now. Start to finish it's uninspiring, from unlocking them, to material gathering to engineering the actual parts. One of the earliest joys in this game for me was trying to figure out how to set up a vulture properly (without using outside help or engineers as I didn't have them unlocked) and not have power issues, engineering fixed that in the most boring way. If there were harsher penalties or trade offs for having more damage or more shields, etc. it would make for a lot more interesting builds and more "tailored" builds per play style. More experienced commanders can have glass cannon builds with low defenses (relying on their own piloting skills) but dish out good damage, while someone less experienced can seek for balance between the two, insecure commanders can go more in the defensive direction with less damage. PVP fights would be a lot more engaging, jousting sessions would be significantly shorter. But instead engineering bypasses most limitations and makes the entirety of engineering and ship building in general boring, why wouldn't you armor your power plant, or reinforce shields, or make plasmas efficient? The drawbacks are laughable.
Simple Solution to Gankers versus Carebears
- Thread starter Lestradae
- Start date
Combat ships do have trade offs. Mainly less range and inability to do almost nothing else other than fight. Heck, a while back one of the big PvP groups was openly recruiting their own in house fuel rat. But they are good at their jobs: killing stuff.
Same with properly outfitted pirates, traders, and explorers. Those aren't meant to kill to stuff but be good at their job too.
So basically only combat ships are at liberty to be maxed out in their field? Less range and limitation to one field applies to other types of builds, but those are criticized. How come a maxed out trade ship has to be defenseless?
Considering this
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Try playing other games alone as a maxed out healer or a tank and tell me how it went.
Weird and unrelated comment. By other games having tanks and healers I'm guessing you're implying a team based game with proper coordination and a common goal against an equal team trying to achieve the same goal as you in a competitive environment involving proper matchmaking?
EDIT: ana/zarya main btw
EDIT: ana/zarya main btw
One possible way of partly addressing the issue is to also let the system security states play a bigger role. Maybe response time of atr in high sec systems should be almost instantaneous and super lethal whilst in anarchy they ofc don't exist at all, and a sliding scale between the 2 ofc. Make the system states matter -this could also be made to affect the builds of traders/miners etc. trade/mine in high sec with a min/maxed trader/miner is more or less safe but maybe less profitable, slightly offset by the fact that you can max it out for the role without thinking about safety that much. Anarchy trading/mining would then require armour etc to survive and be more profitable but also a lot more dangerous and challenging, but a danger and challenge you would choose out of greed/sport or other reason. To me that would be an awesome evolution of the game, probably also a nightmare to balance but hey...…. nothing worth doing comes easy!
Maxed out traders carry more than anyone. Maxed out explorers jump further than anyone. Maxed out combat ships kill better than anyone.
That fact one of those can blow up the others good is immaterial.
And hey, sometimes a maxed out trader is ideal if you know the area is safe. Maxed out explorer is great if you're going for hard to reach places.
I don't think maxed out combat ships are always ideal either. Sure, for competitive PvP or blockading a system they're ace but maybe not so much for player bounty hunting or BGS related work.
It's all about building the ship to the job it's for and considering ever factor possible.
We are talking about a team game. No one cares for your builds in solo.
Edit: If you're playing a team game alone in a maxed out build, maybe you're doing something wrong?
Good points and don't get me wrong, a combat ship should always be a threat to any non combat ship, my intent wasn't to advocate harmless combat ships, just offered an opinion but in the end I agree with you and would add that awareness saves a lot of hull and rebuys too.
You seem to be talking to yourself or in another language
What team games? We are talking elite dangerous here, get on the program...
Instancing 
You have never been ganked by a squadron? Hm. Sounds like you're lost in space.
I don't see a problem with his logic.
Combat ships are maxed out to dish out and take damage. They were built to KILL each other and you.
They have crap jump range and cargo space
Cargo ships are maxed out to carry stuff. They were meant to run cargo. Not fight or defend themselves.
They have crap offence/defence. Jump range depends on the ship.
Exploration ships are maxed out for range. They were meant to wander, and get as far away from the gankers as possible.
They have mediocre offence/defence, and cargo space depends on the ship.
It's basically rock, paper, scissors.
What is it about this that you don't understand?
I have no problem with gankers,
I fly in solo and pg.
The easiest solution.
I have maxed out combat, cargo, and exploration ships.
The only thing playing in open has to offer is combat. I do combat. When I want to, not at someone else's leisure.
The few times I've shown up at Dezhra in a combat ship. GASP. I'm not attacked.
I fly in solo and pg.
The easiest solution.
I have maxed out combat, cargo, and exploration ships.
The only thing playing in open has to offer is combat. I do combat. When I want to, not at someone else's leisure.
The few times I've shown up at Dezhra in a combat ship. GASP. I'm not attacked.
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It is almost as if you haven't red my post after that one or any of the previous ones
You also completely missed the point. Point was for a combat ship it's normal to be maxed out, while maxed out traders and explorers are being criticized, that's why there was the "considering this" quote in the end, the one you completely ignored. But it's alright, I'm used to people replying for the sake of making an argument.
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Maxed out for it's task is fine. It's the percentages that are of. The percentage of available potential increase in defensive ability. There are to many modules that can be fitted, to increase the amount of defensive hit points. All these stack and most can be engineered. Nothing else in the game can be compared to that.
If a pure trader should have the same options, we would have to have cargo racks that were engineerable for both size and efficiency. On top of that, we would need an external cargo bay and cargo booster modules.
Explorers can fit one range extender. HRPs, MRPs and SCBs can be stacked.
If you go for defense, you simply get more. The modules are also poorly balanced between each other. HRPs generally give better protection/ton than armour. Shield boosters have no weight or power penalty for bigger shield generators.
The weight penalty on internal defense is to small and the speed penalty on weight is to small. Even on a pure combat ship there should be a balancing act between speed and tankyness.
Engineering benefits everyone, not just combat.
Explorers benefit most from FSD mods. So do traders.
In fact these 2 roles benefit the most from FSD mods because they tend to run light. Of course the freighters benefit less because of their smaller FSD modules.
Besides FSD mods, the various scanner mods for wider scan angle or longer range, all those also count for exploration tools, do they not?
Fighters benefit the least because most combat oriented ships have even smaller drive modules. And don't forget, most combat roles have reinforced or mil bulkheads which add A LOT to mass, and further decrease jump range. Stacking HRPs, MRPs and SCBs also add to mass.
Unfortunately, traders perhaps, get the shorter end of the stick, because there is not much you can do about physical cargo space.
The only thing they can do is to decide between going all out for the FSD mods so that they can out-HighWake an attacker, Engine mod for realspace speed, or tank up with a Mil bulkhead so that they can buy time tanking attacks on their way out of Dodge. They can also choose to stack SBs.
Engineering is not the problem. The basic ship design probably is. Base hull values, and module configurations.
Then again, if you put a 747 against an F-15, you already know what's gonna happen.
That's just a reality you have to face.
Open PvE is literally the best solution to this. It'd just be FDev - sanctioned Mobius. End of story.
The question is does that fit into the design plan?
As much as I wish it weren't, Elite is very much a gritty game for depressing people. Jolly co-operation is very much not in the spirit of things.
The question is does that fit into the design plan?
As much as I wish it weren't, Elite is very much a gritty game for depressing people. Jolly co-operation is very much not in the spirit of things.
Speaking of reality
How frequent and under what conditions does that happen compared to Elite? How many civilians have free rein to do what they please with their F-15s? It's equally moot point as the one comparing elite to other games.
How frequent and under what conditions does that happen compared to Elite? How many civilians have free rein to do what they please with their F-15s? It's equally moot point as the one comparing elite to other games.
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Nobody said anything about civilians flying F-15s.
I just plainly said that if an F-15 were to intercept an airliner or cargo liner with orders to shoot it down.... it wouldn't stand a chance in hell.