Supercruise - planetary slingshots

The "Hot topic" of recent times seems to be "supercruise is so slow, I'm bored..." and numerous suggestions on how to "fix" it. These basically amount to to fast travel / teleportation and are obviously aimed at instant gratificaiton of players, who are bored of AFKing or ran out of things on net flix to watch. With the exception of a few notable edge cases like hutton orbital, pitaniang etc, most destinations are a few minutes from arrival point, not hours. However it is the nature of humanity to alwant to go higher, further, faster, and it appears that interrplanetary travel in elite has now started to be viewed in that context.

So to clarify my own position, I am vehemently opposed to the current wave of suggestions, the tone of which could snarkily be surmised as one of "cant we just get there in 30 second already", but I'm not narcissistic enough to say noone's opinion other than mine counts. So i've been racking my brains for a way of potentially making supercruise transit times less through player agency, that doesn't shut the door on interdictions, and I came up with.....

Planetary slingshots...


Granted these aren't an entirely new concept, they are very effective, most of our unmanned space probes have been sent to destination by means of planetary slingshots / gravity assists... Voyager 1, a 42 year old space probe remains the fastest man made item ever, flying out of the solar system, having completed numerous flybys, at a dizzying 17 km/s. In game, really fast pilots use gravity braking to slow their craft for approach to station by either flying between the planet and the station, or doing a lap around the planet inside the gravity well to reduce speed. I am proposing we make a game mechanic that can selectively, if done with pilot skill, not an iwin button, pick up speed in SC. To let the game know which of these moves you are trying, gravity brake or assist, throttle position would be the selecter, 100% throttle you are wanting an assist, <20% throttle as you approach a planet, you are wanting to use it to wipe off some speed. Once the ships computer knows which manouvere you are wanting to use the approaching planet for, the HUD gets updated with a suitable vector.

I'd imagine that a gravity assist would look like a racing line around the planet, start out wide and fast on entry, come in close inclose to get pulled into the gravity well, and drift out wide as you exit, moving faster than you could without an assist. How much faster, well that would depend, I'd propose that gravity assist gained speed be added to top SC speed. So if you gained 200c by coming in to a planet FAST, say 600c approach, 750c exit speed, that 150c you gained from the planet would be added to your SC top speed, so you now max out at 2151c instead of 2001c, until you hit your next planet :) If you string a few well executed slingshot assists together, three or four thousand c could be yours for the taking. To stop this getting miled and people staying in the slingshot sweetspot for ages and doing 100,000c, I'd suggest capping each slingshot assist speed-gain to a percentage of your approach speed, what that percentage should be would probably be best balance tested in beta. I'd also suggest that for balance, faster slingshot speeds reduce supercruise agility, the more slingshot gain you pick up, the more suercruise agility you lose.

By contrast, gravity braking would not really change, bar a new suggested course hud, maybe showing how much speed has been pulled from the vessel during this session and or projected exit speed, and would probably require a different line, say hold a constant radius around a planet to use its gravity to wipe off some of your speed?

Why this approach? Well it creates more player agency in how much effort they want to put in to get to their destinaiton in less time, and still leaves opportunities for interactions with other vessels, and new tactics for both hostile and defensive flying. Players could slingshot every planet between the arrival point and their destination starport, leaving only a couple of ways to interdict them, their pursuer would have to follow them through the series of slingshots to catch up with them. But if their pursuer only seen them say two slingshots later, they couldnt catch them, offering "carebears" a safer faster way to fly, that makes them have to put in more effort.

However more predatory players could slingshot everything and leave the orbital plane, looping like a bird of prey holding their high SC speed, then "dive" on their prey, fast. A game of cat and mouse could ensue with the predator chasing the fleeing and evading prey trying to get through a set of slingshots to out run their hunter. The predator would have to have made their mind up where their slingshot speed / agility trade off sweetspot is, too fast not agile enough the prey can easily out manouvere them, super agile, but too slow, their prey might run away from them.
 
I think you are ignoring the point that the principle of Slingshots/Orbital Breaking relies on Newtonian mechanics being the fundamental science behind the motion involved.

Super Cruise is a FTL travel mechanic that essentially side steps the limitations of Newtonian based travel, ergo I believe your proposal does not fit with the nature of the mechanics in play.
 
@rlsg I think the fact we are travelling at supraliminary speeds kind of ignores relativity, so this would be one of those cases where game play trumps accuracy. We can try to work close to physics, and indeed the game does that already. The sort of gravity braking in supercruise I mentioned in my proposal is currently in game, and has been for yonks, so the game already mixes supercruise supraluminal speeds with newtonian gravity, which is why I see no reason we could not also have gravity assists as acceleration.
 
@rlsg I think the fact we are travelling at supraliminary speeds kind of ignores relativity, so this would be one of those cases where game play trumps accuracy. We can try to work close to physics, and indeed the game does that already. The sort of gravity braking in supercruise I mentioned in my proposal is currently in game, and has been for yonks, so the game already mixes supercruise supraluminal speeds with newtonian gravity, which is why I see no reason we could not also have gravity assists as acceleration.
The principles of the Alcubierre Drive (on which the super-cruise mechanics are essentially based) are consistent with Einstein's Equations but is seemingly beyond the current capabilities of science/technology (the clear point here is that when travelling at faster than light velocities using something akin to the Alcubierre Drive the frame of spatial reference is manipulated to allow faster than light travel). There are also other complications with the proposal such as how Super Cruise currently behaves in orbit/near-orbit that ultimately would make this thread's proposal essentially unworkable anyway.

Any appearance to mix Newtonian gravity principles with the faster than light velocities are limited to orbital/near-orbital/sub-orbital cases where travel speeds are actually limited to sub-light speed. This actually makes sense since the velocities involved would almost certainly not be involving significant manipulation of local spatial reference. On approach to a solar system the upper speed is actually reduced rather than increased which runs contrary to the fundamental principle of slingshots and orbital braking.
 
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That sounds like fun gameplay for densely packed systems, but most have their planets too far apart to make this much use. Also, how would you change the current dynamics of cruising slow around planets for this mechanic - coming in at speed for a fast flyby to make it work?
 
So to clarify my own position, I am vehemently opposed to the current wave of suggestions, the tone of which could snarkily be surmised as one of "cant we just get there in 30 second already", but I'm not narcissistic enough to say noone's opinion other than mine counts. So i've been racking my brains for a way of potentially making supercruise transit times less through player agency, that doesn't shut the door on interdictions, and I came up with.....
I really don't understand what narcissism has to do with anything.
I mean, when someone buys ARMA and starts complaining on forums that it's boring that he has to walk too much before shooting starts, and begins throwing ideas how to change the game to suit his whim - then am I narcississtic if I tell him: sorry dude, look for some other game maybe?
 
I quite like the idea of a slingshot mechanic, if it can be worked in to the system, and lore (not that I particularly care about lore).

I also like the idea of jumping to secondary stars. Or my idea, about using multiple navigation beacons to hop your way around a system. It may sound fast travel-y, but if you've ever played I-War 2, you'll know it's not just a simple "teleport".
The first bit of the idea below is just a bonus to the added danger of jumping directly to a nav beacon in another system, and the last bit was some random add-on afterthought. Lol

But the middle bit is the bit worth reading. IMHO anyway.

 
@cosmic Spacehead - read your suggestion about nav beacons, kind of reminds me of the lore that was bounced about in the DDF - exploration would require building a network of beacons yada-yada, but your idea of fighting for beacons, and them being essentially jump gates, doesnt really mesh with the games design, likes of X universe use jumpgates, elite has never used jumpgates, so, im sorry pal I disagree with it.
 
I like the idea -- in fact, I independently suggested something similar in the previous thread on this. The idea of selecting whether you want to slingshot or gravity brake via throttle setting rubs me a little wrong. I'd like it to be more about controlling your approach vector than a simple toggle setting, although achieving that control will get difficult as your planet flyby speed increases. You've done a good job imagining the new gameplay around SC flight this would bring in. My balance suggestion would be to make the achievable speed boost proportional to the mass of the flyby target. No boosting to ludicrous speed from flying by a dozen tiny icy bodies.

I think you are ignoring the point that the principle of Slingshots/Orbital Breaking relies on Newtonian mechanics being the fundamental science behind the motion involved.

Yes, OP's suggestion definitely ignores that point. I don't think it matters. There's enough handwavium around the FSD mechanics already that the important critereon is making it feel consistent and natural, not maintaining agreement with a fictional "physics" of superluminal flight. And I say this as a huge physics-and-spaceflight nerd myself.

That sounds like fun gameplay for densely packed systems, but most have their planets too far apart to make this much use. Also, how would you change the current dynamics of cruising slow around planets for this mechanic - coming in at speed for a fast flyby to make it work?

I don't think density is quite the problem, as much as the lumpiness. In most systems, at high speed, you'll quickly run out of bodies around the primary star, so hopefully you'll have built up all the speed you need for the big gap by the time you fly by the last one. Unless it's possible to loop back and do additional runs to build up even more speed. I suppose that would put a natural cap on the achievable top speeds, as past a certain point your turning radius would be larger than the planetary system surrounding the primary star. Additionally, this would be in keeping with Elite's tendency towards mechanics that make you choose between "do something inefficiently now" vs "invest time now to do the thing efficiently later". You can either set out for Hutton at once or after a single flyby boost, or you can spend some time carefully navigating loops around the arrival system to build up enormous speed for the cruise.
 
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Yes, OP's suggestion definitely ignores that point. I don't think it matters. There's enough handwavium around the FSD mechanics already that the important critereon is making it feel consistent and natural, not maintaining agreement with a fictional "physics" of superluminal flight. And I say this as a huge physics-and-spaceflight nerd myself.
False - it's basis in real world theoretical science is pretty solid, just because it is outside of our current technological capabilities does not make it handwavium in any shape or form.

Fundamentally, you can put it as simply as this - given the speeds our ships are capable of traveling at (2001c in super-cruise at the upper limit), it would be non-realistic and provide no gameplay of value to mung a slingshot mechanic into current super cruise gameplay. On top of that the required changes to current gameplay to try and implement it would have wider impact and overall be detrimental to gameplay as a whole.
 
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Older Elite games dropped you at a nav-beacon when you jumped to a new system, iirc, so it's not an unheard of precedent.
The principle of being able to jump to another star that has a nav beacon around it could be considered a legitimate extension of the current FSD jump mechanics. Essentially, the star in question could be too close to another star to target reliably so the nav beacon provides real-time correction data to allow the jump to occur.
 
Can you elaborate on how you think FSD jumps work? This isn't a 'hurr durr explain yourself' thing, I just wanna know if we're on the same page.
Essentially, as I understand it the FSD targets the notional primary stellar body of a solar system (for want of a better term - such a system could consist of more than one solar system as we understand the term) and the drive system itself generates a single powerful FSD burst (possibly in conjunction with a form of Einstein-Rosen bridge) with the end-point being the targeted gravity well.
 
At risk of asking the obvious, how is the star targeted? I assume it's because it's, well, a star, and thus a gigantic radioactive beacon?
I would presume a combination of optical luminosity and gravity well determination - maybe radio signals come into it but ultimately the precise method of targeting is moot in the main. It could be on the most part arbitrary based on long range observation data for example. However it is done there is a general logic to FD's selected approach that does seem to feel natural and make sense.
 
I only bring it up because navigation beacons in the 'nearby stars require a nav beacon for fine-tuning' would presumably be transmitting data to an FSD before the jump begins?
Not necessarily, the presence of the nav beacon may be enough to bypass any safety lockouts - when the data is received and how is something that is on the most part moot.
 
False - it's basis in real world theoretical science is pretty solid, just because it is outside of our current technological capabilities does cnot make it handwavium in any shape or form.
I'm sorry, I don't want to be argumentative, but I really have to push back on this point because it seems like a common sentiment around here yet is wildly wrong.

Firstly, the FSD mechanic bears a passing resemblance to the warp bubble travel proposed by Alcubierre. But the resemblance is only passing. Nothing in the proposal suggests features like slowdown near massive objects, any particular speed cap, need for gradual acceleration, or ability to get information from your surroundings at superluminal speeds. And on the other side of the coin, conceptual Alcubierre drives usually involve features like large masses of exotic matter external to the ship, which are conspicuously absent here.

Secondly, and more importantly, the Alcubierre concept is not a design for a warp drive. It actually goes the other way. Miguel Alcubierre proposed a specific configuration of spacetime, the Alcubierre metric, that serves as a thought experiment showing that General Relativity allows travel in the style of a Star Trek warp drive. Whether any such configuration is actually allowed in our universe at all is an open question, pending the resolution of unsolved problems around quantum gravity. Nevertheless, many theorists have taken the idea and run with it, trying to imagine arrangements of matter and fields that would produce an Alcubierre-style bubble. The results are, as a whole, unsatisfying: they routinely require vast amounts of exotic matter having negative mass and/or negative energy, if they can be stopped at all they tend to do so with a stupendous release of energy, the more benign ones can only transport a ship of subatomic dimensions, and they might cause undesirable time travel.

The point of all this being: Alcubierre drives aren't real, won't be anytime soon, and we have very little idea what a working one would actually be like. Complaining that idea X or Y is inconsistent with how Alcubierre drives work, is a bit like complaining that a painting is all wrong because it made the unicorns the wrong color.
 
The point of all this being: Alcubierre drives aren't real, won't be anytime soon, and we have very little idea what a working one would actually be like. Complaining that idea X or Y is inconsistent with how Alcubierre drives work, is a bit like complaining that a painting is all wrong because it made the unicorns the wrong color.
You are focusing too much on specifics and the limitations of current science/technology, it does not change the simple fact that whether the FSD is a text book Alcubierre Drive or some other form of FTL mechanic, the end result of those mechanics is classic Newtonian laws do not apply in the same way due to the requirement to manipulate the local spatial reference relative to the wider universe (c/f Post #19). This maps on to how the FSD behaves in-game, the motion while in Super Cruise does not come even close to matching the kind of motion behaviour pattern that would be required for Slingshot/Orbital Braking mechanics to make any real sense.
 
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It sounds a nice idea in principle but the problem with the gravitational slingshot idea is in the very basics of how Supercruise works.

The max supercruise speed at a point in space is inversely proportional to the gravitational field strength at that point. (Roughly speaking anyway. There’s adjustments made so that the effect falls off quicker with distance than gravity does.)

In other words, assuming that you’re flying at a constant supercruise setting, your speed gets reduced as you go into a gravity well and increases as you go out of it.

A gravitational slingshot works because a path is chosen that goes behind a body’s direction of motion - so as gravity accelerates you towards the body the body is also moving to the side, meaning you pick up a bit of its momentum and when you come back out of the gravity field on the other side (which decelerates you), you have your original momentum plus the bit you picked up from the body.

They key thing really though is that in the period you’re in the body’s gravity well, your overall speed is higher than when you were outside it.

For Supercruise the opposite is true - you go slower in the gravity well, much much slower.

The net effect is that even if you could pick up some net speed via the manouvere in Supercruise, you’d still have lost a huge amount of time compared to just going around the gravity well.

To have a slingshot manoeuvre which allowed you to reduce the time to a distant destination would require completely changing how Supercruise works, which changes it for everything, not just the manouvere. So it’s a no from me.

The best thing IMHO is to fly in Supercruise according to how Supercruise works, i.e. fly in curved paths around the gravity wells (so in general principle aim to optimise path length vs average speed on that path).
 
Gravity doesn't apply to FSD?
It applies, but I don't believe it's physics that affect how it works.
Your acceleration and speed are determined mostly by the target you have selected, and usually your FSD will slow down near big celestial bodies, which isn't exactly how gravity should work.
Sometimes it shows you're speeding (with speed indicator going out of scale) - but that means you're moving too fast (to safely drop out of supercruise I assume) - when usually you're actually constantly slowing down.

I always thought this is more like safety option built in FSD - to save pilots from hitting planets at full hyperspeed, so when FSD detects gravity well it will automatically lower the speed cap.
 
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