Increase Supercruise Acceleration and Top Speed to No More than 20 Seconds AFK

dxm55

Banned
Gravity is universal, there is no system or body you can fly to or between where gravity doesn't still have an effect, even the Hutton Orbital the run doesn't allow you to get far enough away from either star to achieve top speed of 2001c. To reach 2001c you essentially have to point towards emptiness and sit there for the better part of half an hour. I believe halfway between the two stars in the way to Hutton Orbital you will reach slowly around 1895c, I am not sure of the exact number, at that point it start decreasing as you have passed the roughly halfway mark and are now flying into a gravity well rather than away from one.

It's interesting in this regard that the game matches as close as possible to reality, the gravity field of every particle in the universe extends to the far side of the universe, in ED as with the real universe there is no gravitational sphere around bodies and stars where gravity suddenly stops affecting ships in SC.

I'm talking about a point or threshold where it tangibly affects your ship to a degree that it slows down enough.
While IRL it might be universal, in the game, we can set a threshold where gravity starts to have a perceivable impact on performance.

That's what I'm getting at. ANd that's what pilots generally want to avoid when attempting to reach a destination at best speed and best time.
 

Lestat

Banned
You getting your head handed to you can be fixed. Get better at combat. Engineer your ship. Buy another ship. Stop taking those missions if you suck at combat. Having a massacre mission show up 300,000 Ls away cannot be fixed. Blackbox mission: 20,000 Ls. Recover artwork: 100,000 Ls. The one I hate the most: you decide to go ahead and go to Hutton. You get there and the mission board is full of assassination missions you want to do, but that means you'd have to come back.
See we are in the same boat here. With Combat or distance. Both have one distinct feature we both can use. Discard Mission. They both have one common denominator and that is credits earned. Is the Time worth the credit earned? Just like is it worth me Dying for the credit Earn. But in any case. Asking for an easy mode for either Distance or Combat Dumb downs the gameplay.

Every system caters to people who "love the long travel time". Throttle down to your heart's content.
Um 90% of the stations in Elite Dangerous.Cater to your needs, not mine. Use third party websites you will find I am right. Oh, maybe you should stop using Supercruise assist. Because that will make travel time way slower. While being skilled at travelling you can shorten your distance.

I have a corvette that can melt any NPC. There's not much effort required. I don't have terribly strong shields, but they're not getting through my shields before I can kill them. I do a ton of assassination missions in a python built for trading instead of the corvette. I lose shields all the time. I often have to boost away and stall while hoping the cops come help. It's much more difficult, but I enjoy fighting in the python more than fighting in the corvette.
Yawn. Woopie I don't think anyone cares about your combat skills. But let talk about your accepting Mission skills. They seem to be somewhat lacking kinda like my combat skills. I don't sit at the computer accepting 20 Mission in 2 Minutes time span without reading them and then complain about the distance. I sit down and read them which shortens the time travel. I also use the Galaxy map to buy system data. Or even look at the system to see if distance could be an issue. If I am unsure I use third-party sites or go into that location. If it too far I have a choice. Look at the price vs Distance. If the price is low. I discard that mission. Problem solved. If the price is High I willing to accept that mission and the distance it required.
 
regarding the reduction in time taken in supercruise, I don’t believe it’s about making an ‘easy mode’. It’s about making it fun and engaging.

Supercruise is already easy, too easy, and, well, a bit dull on long trips. At least imho. For me it’s about making it more playable and engaging.
 

dxm55

Banned
regarding the reduction in time taken in supercruise, I don’t believe it’s about making an ‘easy mode’. It’s about making it fun and engaging.

Supercruise is already easy, too easy, and, well, a bit dull on long trips. At least imho. For me it’s about making it more playable and engaging.

Actually it's just to make our limited playing time more fun.
You can actually get some stuff done within the usually limited play times most working adults are left with after the day's activities.

That of course doesn't count if one is a neckbeard grinder. The parent's basement is always open and in use.
 
What did you do during that half hour wait to get to 350000ls?

Did you ‘play Elite Dangerous’ by staring at the SuperCruise screen for half an hour? Or did you do something else while you waited for the time to pass?
Me, personally?

For one thing, 350 kls is more like 15-20 minutes, not 30. Thirty minutes means you're flying straight to the star, probably keeping it in the blue zone so you don't do the poorly named "loop of shame", as opposed to taking advantage of how Supercruise actually works.

But aside from that, during that time, I'd use that time to read Galnet, examining the galaxy map to see if there was any potential freedom fighters out there resisting the cruel Galactic Federation for me to help, examining my ships' bridges in VR, going "EVA" to examine the outside of my ships in VR, simply getting up out of my chair and leaning against a support strut or canopy panel to gaze at the star field, making periodic course adjustments, planning my optimal route to my destination around the secondary star, checking my scanner to make sure nobody's moving to intercept me, and pre 3.3 I'd also keep an eye out for USSs that would spawn along my route.

Post 3.3, I haven't spent much time in the Bubble, and USSs don't spawn ahead of you about every thirty seconds, so keeping an eye out of USSs isn't a thing any more. And since I'm out exploring, I don't have to worry about potential pirates. But everything else still stands, but instead of looking for a new BGS theater of operations in the galaxy map, I'm looking at refining or extending my current path through the galaxy. Ideally, I'd like to be able to use the FSS as well, but for some reason Frontier feels the need to artificially limit our throttle settings while using it. :(

My time in Elite: Dangerous is extremely limited, so I take these rare longer Supercruise journeys to do the kinds of things that would normally mean having to sit there doing nothing under normal circumstances. After all, if you want to minimize your time spent in Supercruise, you actually have to pay attention to it and fly optimal routes through a system, so there isn't much "downtime" to do these kinds of things. It's only in the void between stars do I have the luxury of free time to interact with certain parts of the game.
 
See we are in the same boat here. With Combat or distance. Both have one distinct feature we both can use. Discard Mission.

Something which should be a last resort. But that's the point. In combat it genuinely is the last resort, once all other options have been explored. (IE establishing whether the mission is a bust via skilled use of gameplay mechanics).

In late-reveal distance scenarios the last resort is the 'first' resort. That's why drawing direct parity between those scenarios is a flawed comparison.

They both have one common denominator and that is credits earned. Is the Time worth the credit earned?

Just like is it worth me Dying for the credit Earn. But in any case. Asking for an easy mode for either Distance or Combat Dumb downs the gameplay.

That's the root of the fundamental disagreement over this. You are a 'Time vs Reward' player primarily, we are 'Risk vs Reward' players primarily.

This is made more ironic by the fact that 'Risk vs Reward' leaning missions are disproportionately hit by the 'undeclared destination' problem.

Are you beginning to see the issue? ;) And why it's such a point of annoyance for players like myself?

[NB: A reminder here. I'm not suggesting changes that would force you to change your playstyle to accommodate mine. I'm advocating 'win win' solutions etc, re my proposed solutions]

Um 90% of the stations in Elite Dangerous.Cater to your needs, not mine. Use third party websites you will find I am right.

That miscasts the issue somewhat. Redirects don't just go to stations. They go to uninhabited planets too. So any system with far-flung planets is open to this issue. Which is likely more than the 10% weighting of stations alone (although a stat analysis via EDDB would be good).

Yawn. Woopie I don't think anyone cares about your combat skills. But let talk about your accepting Mission skills. They seem to be somewhat lacking kinda like my combat skills. I don't sit at the computer accepting 20 Mission in 2 Minutes time span without reading them and then complain about the distance. I sit down and read them which shortens the time travel. I also use the Galaxy map to buy system data. Or even look at the system to see if distance could be an issue. If I am unsure I use third-party sites or go into that location. If it too far I have a choice. Look at the price vs Distance. If the price is low. I discard that mission. Problem solved. If the price is High I willing to accept that mission and the distance it required.

Yawn. You're ignoring all the scenarios where interrogating mission destination is impossible. And the anti-fun of disregarding swathes of mission types and individual missions purely because the 'boredom lottery' may smite you.

This is an issue. It's not going away. A solution which suits both 'Time vs Reward' & 'Risk vs Reward' players is desirable...
 
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There's a well understood principle of paths of least energy for orbital transfer.
Those paths are non-linear.
Implement them in the game and have them provide a reasonable boost to SC acceleration when following them.

That provides a non-AFK method for those in a hurry while not affecting those who use that SC travel time to do other things.

Something similar actually exists in the game, but when Frontier gave in to the Veruca Salts of the community and made Supercruise "faster," by decreasing the braking effects of mass, all it did was make those routes take a little bit longer, since the optimal braking route at your destination was moved inside all but the larger gas giants as a result.
 
The FSD, no matter its function, is limited by its acceleration and maximum output.
Modifying these doesn't change the method the drive functions with, just how well it performs.
And the way the FSD works in this game, altering the "acceleration" also affects "deceleration" , because both are a side effect of the mass lock effect: how mass affects FSD performance. If you decrease the mass lock effect in order to decrease the amount of time it takes to escape from a gravity well (usually your arrival star), you increase the amount of time it takes to stop when entering the gravity well of your destination.

The last time Frontier tweaked the mass lock effect, back in Premium Beta One, to "speed up" Supercruise, players who flew optimal routes to their destination saw their travel times increase, because the optimal route to brake at their destination was shifted inside the planets, necessitating overshooting and then looping back, which in the past was the result of poor technique. The addition of the orbital cruise zone with Horizons exacerbated the problem. I really don't think there's much room left for tweaking, because any further decreases in the mass lock effect will simply necessitate keeping your throttle in the blue zone for the whole trip, which IMO is pretty much anti-gameplay.
 
Which is good, coz there's stuff needs tweaking ;)

Oddly, I agree that there’s stuff that needs tweaking, but I’m pretty sure we disagree on the direction. ;) if it were up to me, I’d tweak the mass lock effect upwards again. This would have the effect of decreasing the travel times of those who fly optimal paths and pay attention to where their destination is.

It would, of course, penalize those who think the proper way to fly is pointing at their destination, set their throttle in the blue, and never touch their controls again, but then I’ve always been a fan of skill based game play.
 
Again, let me clarify this and anchor this in reality: do you prefer the in-system travel mechanics to be structured in a way that you can literally take your hands off of your keyboard or controller, completely divert your attention away from the game for more than 20 seconds to watch a movie, and still arrive safely at your destination?
Nope. I prefer what we currently have in the game: a situation where what you describe is slower and more dangerous than active flying. If anything, I’d prefer a return to the Alpha iteration, where active flying was even faster, and “hands off” flying was even slower and more dangerous.
 
Least energy orbits don't apply to supercruise, because our motion isn't remotely Newtonian. But I would love to have a skill-based component that would let you get places faster through skillful piloting, and something thematically similar to "slingshot" maneuvers would be a good way to do it.
Well you’re in luck, because something like that already exists in this game! There already exist optimal routes through a system that reward skillful flying with shorter Supercruise times (which can be significant in crowded systems), and the slingshot equivalent is gravity braking, where you take advantage of the greater mass lock effects near large masses to rapidly decelerate your ship, vs the “blue zone” method.

Both effects were much more pronounced during the Alpha, but the “set it and forget it” crowd complained, and Frontier gave in. Which was a pity, because Supercruise times were actually shorter, for most Bubble destinations, during the Alpha. :(
 
Did any of the players currently asking for reduction to SC times actually do any research into the game prior to buying it - past the "every ship has guns" bit?

I may not think the time it takes to travel 540KLs to a secondary or tertiary star is particularly engaging, but it is my choice... Oddly enough I don't watch movies, tab out of the game etc. when flying there either.

I suppose suggesting that there are other games available where time isn't 'wasted' doing mundane things would be frowned upon?
 
Maybe one interesting way to achieve some interesting FSD effects would be to introduce some extremely speculative (i.e. fictional) spacetime physics when it comes to our understanding of gravity wells.

The FSD clearly works on the basis that you achieve maximum speed when you are flying on the flat surface of spacetime outside the gravity wells and that you are speed restricted the 'lower' into a well you are.
Now, instead of imagining those gravity wells as smooth curves from that flat surface down to the mass causing them, imagine them more as a splash on the surface of water.

water-drops-splash-ripples-reflections-surface-water-drops-splash-ripples-reflections-surface-129629734.jpg

So we still have the 'well' effect, but we also have circular ripples radiating out from them.
These ripples are 'raised' up on the surface of spacetime and would theoretically enable a higher speed (thus greater acceleration to get there).

The size of the ripples, how many there are, and how far they radiate out would vary depending on the mass.
They could potentially create complex interference patterns as they intersect with the ripples from other masses.

The main implementation discussion would be about whether they are standing waves in fixed positions or whether they actually do radiate outwards, and then how to visualize that in SC flight.

They could create all sorts of potential SC flight navigation gameplay:
  • riding a ripple as a form of gravitational slingshot.
  • navigating optimal routes through complex systems.
  • using ripples to effect more rapid exit from gravity wells.
  • using the troughs for braking.
  • etc.
 
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Maybe one interesting way to achieve some interesting FSD effects would be to introduce some extremely speculative (i.e. fictional) spacetime physics when it comes to our understanding of gravity wells.

The FSD clearly works on the basis that you achieve maximum speed when you are flying on the flat surface of spacetime outside the gravity wells and that you are s[eed restricted the 'lower' into a well you are.
Now, instead of imagining those gravity wells as smooth curves from that flat surface down to the mass causing them, imagine them more as a splash on the surface of water.

water-drops-splash-ripples-reflections-surface-water-drops-splash-ripples-reflections-surface-129629734.jpg

So we still have the 'well' effect, but we also have circular ripples radiating out from them.
These ripples are 'raised' up on the surface of spacetime and would theoretically enable a higher speed (thus greater acceleration to get there).

The size of the ripples, how many there are, and how far they radiate out would vary depending on the mass.
They could potentially create complex interference patterns as they intersect with the ripples from other masses.

The main implementation discussion would be about whether they are standing waves in fixed positions or whether they actually do radiate outwards, and then how to visualize that in SC flight.

They could create all sorts of potential SC flight navigation gameplay:
  • riding a ripple as a form of gravitational slingshot.
  • navigating optimal routes through complex systems.
  • using ripples to effect more rapid exit from gravity wells.
  • using the troughs for braking.
  • etc.

Nice post murdoch, and very similar to my suggestion about slingshots being the answer; check my signature for a link to that thread, would love to hear your thoughts on my approach.
 
Did any of the players currently asking for reduction to SC times actually do any research into the game prior to buying it - past the "every ship has guns" bit?

I may not think the time it takes to travel 540KLs to a secondary or tertiary star is particularly engaging, but it is my choice... Oddly enough I don't watch movies, tab out of the game etc. when flying there either.

I suppose suggesting that there are other games available where time isn't 'wasted' doing mundane things would be frowned upon?

Yep, loads thanks. Including playing the original. Decades of research ;)

But regarding ED, I was shown lovely pre-launch cinematics like this:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE8B4KptyVI


So I bought it. By the time the highly-reserved launch trailer was out, I was already in the Beta:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwvjElmFCfE


You get the picture. ED was sold as having some very dynamic aspects, not as a giant time-sink of non-stimulus serenity.

It's cool that you like that stuff. I like aspects of it too. But it is not unreasonable for players like me to petition for change in areas like SC & micro-jumps given:

  • The devs have said they're up for revisiting exactly these things.
  • There are win-win solutions out there which could give us 'risk vs reward' players what we want while preserving your playstyle too.
  • The kinetic end of the mission scale are particularly prone to the surprise destination reveal issue. IE assassinations, wetwork, salvage under fire, piracy etc. Does that seem like a sensible arrangement to you?
 
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