Elite 30 Years - BBC vs ZX Spectrum Elite - Fight club

[Rhaedas]

My game was the C64 and then Elite+ on the Amiga, happy days indeed. I always felt the sound was better on the Commodores than their rivals.

I don't imagine any of the others came close to the SID chip. And did any of them at all have the theme music that I can still hear in my head?

 

[Jack Schitt]

A nice little comparison. Just a couple of points if I may.

• Comparing the load times between a BBC disk version and a Spectrum tape version is a little unfair.
  
  I can't remember whether an official disk version was ever released for the Spectrum +3 (World Of Spectrum suggests not) but there was certainly a tape version for the Beeb. Comparing load times for the cassette versions (and yes, I just did this in real time because I'm that sad) we get:
  
  

  BBC Model B:    4m52s
  Spectrum 48K:   5m25s
  Spectrum 128K*: 4m55s

  
  Which are broadly similar, with the original Spectrum release taking 30 seconds longer than the BBC. And not 20 minutes, Drew
  
  
  <NERD> The reason the "128K" version (which is actually an optimised 48K version and will run on any hardware) loads faster is because the original release used a customised loader that loaded most of the Spectrum memory in one single chunk, from the title screen right through to the end of the usable RAM. This included a lot of "unused" areas full of zero bytes, which you can actually hear if you load it in real time (consecutive zeros sound like a constant tone). Two shorter blocks of code at the end of the tape, preceded by an interminable pause for some reason, concluded the loading sequence.
  
  The 128K version used a standard loader but loaded the title screen and game code separately with no pause between them and no loading of unused bytes, hence the 30 second saving on load time. </NERD>​
  
  
  
• When a kill is awarded, the number that flashes at the bottom of the screen on the Spectrum version is the bounty, but on the Beeb it's your full credit balance.
  
  This is why the BBC version appears to be much more generous. Other versions of Elite adopted one or other of these methods but I seem to recall the "reward only" version was more prevalent. IMO this makes more sense as you don't have to remember what your balance was in order to work out what bounty you just received.

So while the Spectrum got a little short-changed at the start of your mini-review I do agree that the BBC version had the edge overall. Aside from the stuff you highlight in your video, the Beeb also had proper explosions with particles, compared to the Spectrum's clever and efficient -- but ultimately quite dull -- flashing red discs. And the suns on the BBC version rippled at the edges while the Spectrum's suns were simple solid discs. Detail is everything

 

[drew]

A nice little comparison. Just a couple of points if I may.

• Comparing the load times between a BBC disk version and a Spectrum tape version is a little unfair.
  
  I can't remember whether an official disk version was ever released for the Spectrum +3 (World Of Spectrum suggests not) but there was certainly a tape version for the Beeb. Comparing load times for the cassette versions (and yes, I just did this in real time because I'm that sad) we get:
  
  

  BBC Model B:    4m52s
  Spectrum 48K:   5m25s
  Spectrum 128K*: 4m55s

  
  Which are broadly similar, with the original Spectrum release taking 30 seconds longer than the BBC. And not 20 minutes, Drew
  
  
  <NERD> The reason the "128K" version (which is actually an optimised 48K version and will run on any hardware) loads faster is because the original release used a customised loader that loaded most of the Spectrum memory in one single chunk, from the title screen right through to the end of the usable RAM. This included a lot of "unused" areas full of zero bytes, which you can actually hear if you load it in real time (consecutive zeros sound like a constant tone). Two shorter blocks of code at the end of the tape, preceded by an interminable pause for some reason, concluded the loading sequence.
  
  The 128K version used a standard loader but loaded the title screen and game code separately with no pause between them and no loading of unused bytes, hence the 30 second saving on load time. </NERD>​
  
  
  
• When a kill is awarded, the number that flashes at the bottom of the screen on the Spectrum version is the bounty, but on the Beeb it's your full credit balance.
  
  This is why the BBC version appears to be much more generous. Other versions of Elite adopted one or other of these methods but I seem to recall the "reward only" version was more prevalent. IMO this makes more sense as you don't have to remember what your balance was in order to work out what bounty you just received.

So while the Spectrum got a little short-changed at the start of your mini-review I do agree that the BBC version had the edge overall. Aside from the stuff you highlight in your video, the Beeb also had proper explosions with particles, compared to the Spectrum's clever and efficient -- but ultimately quite dull -- flashing red discs. And the suns on the BBC version rippled at the edges while the Spectrum's suns were simple solid discs. Detail is everything

Thanks for the extra detail - very interesting. I recall that the Spectrum version did have ripply suns, but I'll have to go and check. Otherwise - spot on.

Cheers

Drew.

 

[Jack Schitt]

I recall that the Spectrum version did have ripply suns, but I'll have to go and check.

If they did it was only down to aliasing artefacts! The BBC version definitely did this trick, though. It looks as though what Braben and Bell did was to simply add a random pixel or two to each of the horizontal lines that made up the sun's disc, or possibly just move the x origin of the line by a couple of pixels. Either way the result was a sun that rippled at its left and right edges, but not top and bottom. The Beeb was the only 8-bit machine I saw do this, so I'm guessing the processor overhead was too much for the others.

For anyone who hasn't seen it there's a shot of the sun rippling here (11m29s for anyone whose YouTube client doesn't auto-skip). It's a simple but clever effect. I remember being quite blown away when I first saw it.

One final oddity with the Spectrum version that I've never seen verified anywhere but I swear it's true; the two sides of the 48K cassette had two slightly different variants of the game even though the sides were labelled exactly the same.

On one side the enemy ships were the Cobra, Asp, Fer-de-lance, Thargoid/Thargon, Sidewinder, Krait and Viper. On the other side the Krait had been replaced with the Adder. The key difference was that while the Krait was faster, the Adder carried missiles. So the key was to always load the game from the Krait side until you could afford an ECM, then switch to the Adders which were slower and awarded extra kills if you shot their missiles. A sort of early mode switching to minimise risk and increase profit, if you can imagine such a thing

I clearly remember putting red and yellow stickers on my cassette to remind me which side not to load until I had an ECM

The World Of Spectrum archive contains versions of the original 48K release (with Adders) and the Joystick Club version (with Kraits) which does at least demonstrate there were two versions of the 48K code. But every time I've brought this up in the past I seem to be the only one who remembers having both versions on the same cassette.

 

[Lobstris]

One final oddity with the Spectrum version that I've never seen verified anywhere but I swear it's true; the two sides of the 48K cassette had two slightly different variants of the game even though the sides were labelled exactly the same.

On one side the enemy ships were the Cobra, Asp, Fer-de-lance, Thargoid/Thargon, Sidewinder, Krait and Viper. On the other side the Krait had been replaced with the Adder. The key difference was that while the Krait was faster, the Adder carried missiles. So the key was to always load the game from the Krait side until you could afford an ECM, then switch to the Adders which were slower and awarded extra kills if you shot their missiles. A sort of early mode switching to minimise risk and increase profit, if you can imagine such a thing

Oh. My. Gawd. Thank you for this info. It caused a long argument between myself and a friend as to why I saw Adders in my game and he never did. He'd copied the tape from someone up the village and therefore must have had the other side of the tape (Yes. We were introduced to software piracy at a young age, taking cues from our parents who were all busy recording 'top of the pops' off the radio). That's cleared up a 29 year old mystery... if correct.

The other explanation I had at the time was that I was playing the 128k version on a +2 and he still had a 'dead flesh' 48k, and there was a difference in the versions there.

 

[TheDoctor]

I had the BBC tape version then the disk version when we managed to get the DFS upgrade.

Then when I bought an Archimedes for university I got the very nice port for that.

Given how many 8/16 bit micro computers came out in the 1980's in the UK it was certainly ported to an awful lot of systems.

I missed all the sequels though as I kept my Archimedes for over 14 years and used it mainly for work with only a couple of games and none of frontier ones were ported over.

In fact I got my first PC in 2001 and I bought Baldurs Gate and all of the other RPG's and really didn't get back into space/flught sims until the Kick Starter.

 

[Lobstris]

I missed all the sequels though as I kept my Archimedes for over 14 years and used it mainly for work with only a couple of games and none of frontier ones were ported over.

You had the definitive version of 'Zarch' on the Archimedes though.

 

[drew]

One final oddity with the Spectrum version that I've never seen verified anywhere but I swear it's true; the two sides of the 48K cassette had two slightly different variants of the game even though the sides were labelled exactly the same.

I can confirm this is true. I clearly remember this happening and working out that there were two versions.

And the emulated spectrum roms I have don't show the sun having ripply edges - though I do recall it. Perhaps selective memory!

Cheers,

Drew.

 

[TheDoctor]

You had the definitive version of 'Zarch' on the Archimedes though.

I had Zarch, Conqueror, Elite, Karma Flight trainer (which stopped development when the main programmer died) and Chocks away the bi-plane flight sim.

That was it, I had it for my BSc and PhD as well as work and I was gutted when after 14 years it finally went.

They don't build them like that anymore and it was a full 32 bit machine with a massive 4 megabytes of RAM and RiscOS was a full windowed OS on 4 megs of EPROM.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Speccy had Dodecs too!

 

[MikeSnos]

Couldn't hear all of it (you knew that was coming) but I got a good sized chunk of it!

Excellent idea and a lot of thought gone in as well.... Glad the Beeb won.. the Speccy version, for me, looked awful...

Interesting point here (in the interests of fairness)... The BBC had powerful inbuilt graphics and sound processing which lessened the programming load in these areas considerably... The Speccy was a much lower spec (apart from the RAM) machine in comparison so to get it working on there was good going. Has the BBC had comparable graphics and sound to the Speccy I suspect there may have been even more difficulties getting things done... An excellently designed system and mine still works!

 

[Jack Schitt]

Oh. My. Gawd. Thank you for this info. It caused a long argument between myself and a friend as to why I saw Adders in my game and he never did. [...]
The other explanation I had at the time was that I was playing the 128k version on a +2 and he still had a 'dead flesh' 48k, and there was a difference in the versions there.

I'm even more confused now because all of the 128K versions I've ever seen have been Krait-only. But as there'd been so many versions by the mid-to-late 1980s on numerous compilations it's more than possible there were two variants of the 128K as well.

I can confirm this is true. I clearly remember this happening and working out that there were two versions.

Where were you back in the comp.sys.sinclair days when I was trying to convince people I wasn't going nuts?!

To be fair I can understand why most people didn't realise what was going on. Because of the random nature of the enemy spawning (and the fact that people will often have flipped the tape rather than rewinding the whole thing) it would be easy to see both Kraits and Adders across various play sessions. I only noticed myself because a) I played ridiculously long sessions without turning off the Speccy and b) one day I got bored and flipped through all the ships on the attract screen by doing "start-pause-quit" and realised there were no Kraits. I was gobsmacked when I flipped the tape and found there were Kraits but no Adders.

 

[Eldrich Stark]

Anyone remember the missions?

The spectrum had the supernova one and the BBC had the Constrictor

 

[Coll inder]

I this piont I feel i must intervene with the BBC one was not as good as the BBC tube/master version which I have never seen on an emulator. I was running the game just last week to send in a 30yr anniversary video and though the Beeb version does flicker the flicker is not as appearent as seen in your emulators also There is phospourous persist on most CRT TV's. If people nag me enough I might upload a vid...

 

[drew]

Anyone remember the missions?

The spectrum had the supernova one and the BBC had the Constrictor

BBC:

Constrictor
Thargoid Docs

Spectrum:

Supernova
Cloaking Device (Invisible Asp)
Asteroid Bombardment
Thargoid Docs
Thargoid Invasion (You get to destroy a space station and got the ECM Jammer)

C64:

Same as BBC but with Trumbles (not technically a 'mission')

Cheers,

Drew.