General / Off-Topic Electric cars are stupid.

[[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos]

Electric cars do nothing but kid people on they are ‘helping the environment’ but this is a flat out lie.

The first thing is, exhaust. Correct, the car itself produces no exhaust fumes as it silently glides down the road, this is the very foundation of the lie. Whilst I admit that a car not producing exhaust fumes has to be a small improvement, the importance of that is blown way out of proportion to disguise the fact that the electric car is still an environment disaster.

I don’t believe there is a country on the planet that is able to produce electricity entirely from clean sources, say solar or wind harvesting. No. It’s still primarily burning fossil fuels with added nuclear. So this idea that Mr or Mrs Smug has, that their car is clean and wonderful, is just stupid and an appeasement to their guilt that they too are creating pollution.

Sure, Smugo, your car isn’t belching fumes, directly, out the back of it but somewhere a chimney at a power plant is churning out tons of harmful clouds into our air or some ushima/Chernobyl wannabe is creating an unholy waste product that we’ve been oh so clever in creating but not so good at disposing of. So all you have done is displace the mess, not dispose of it. No mess out the front of your house, it’s all in someone else’s back yard. Big slap on the back for you.

The car itself is still an ecological mess. Taking 7 gallons of oil to make just one tyre and that doesn’t count the further oil needed in the production process to manufacture the tyre, just the ingredients for the tyre alone. 28 gallons of oil to shoe your car plus 7 more to have a spare.

The chassis and body work soak up yet more oil and materials, again, the energy and oil to harvest and manipulate them are enormous. The cars exterior is smothered in oil based paint and lacquer, the cars interior is smothered in plastic (oil) and more furnishings that cost a ton of energy to produce.

It’s an Emperor’s new clothes thing. You’re kidding yourself that you’re somehow being responsible, that you’re not contributing to air pollution. It’s a lie. You are and you’re stupid to believe anything else.

 

[Factabulous]

I don’t believe there is a country on the planet that is able to produce electricity entirely from clean sources, say solar or wind harvesting. No. It’s still primarily burning fossil fuels with added nuclear. So this idea that Mr or Mrs Smug has, that their car is clean and wonderful, is just stupid and an appeasement to their guilt that they too are creating pollution.

Several countries have run on green power for days now. Main issue is that it's unreliable so not ideal for base load - but (ironically) once you have a lot of electric cars then they can be used in a smart grid to store electricity and provide it as required (along with other methods like hydro-storage).

The car itself is still an ecological mess. Taking 7 gallons of oil to make just one tyre and that doesn’t count the further oil needed in the production process to manufacture the tyre, just the ingredients for the tyre alone. 28 gallons of oil to shoe your car plus 7 more to have a spare.

The chassis and body work soak up yet more oil and materials, again, the energy and oil to harvest and manipulate them are enormous. The cars exterior is smothered in oil based paint and lacquer, the cars interior is smothered in plastic (oil) and more furnishings that cost a ton of energy to produce.

Unlike petrol cars at the moment eh? Sure Electric Cars aren't as green as bikes etc, but it's a step.

It’s an Emperor’s new clothes thing. You’re kidding yourself that you’re somehow being responsible, that you’re not contributing to air pollution. It’s a lie. You are and you’re stupid to believe anything else.

Kids of today eh? Certainly there is some stupid around here, reading is great - you should try it!

 

[avow555]

Where I live we have produced 120% fossil free fuel on a number of occasions.
It's not just for cars either.
In the next 10 years I am sure we will have no use for oil in our general electricity usage.

 

[[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos]

Several countries have run on green power for days now. Main issue is that it's unreliable so not ideal for base load - but (ironically) once you have a lot of electric cars then they can be used in a smart grid to store electricity and provide it as required (along with other methods like hydro-storage).



Unlike petrol cars at the moment eh? Sure Electric Cars aren't as green as bikes etc, but it's a step.



Kids of today eh? Certainly there is some stupid around here, reading is great - you should try it!

i’m not defending petrol cars. The point about it being a step really wants examining. It’s a tiny, tiny step that seems to have earned the largest self-congratulatory parade in history. It’s one tiny, shuffled step in an attempt to outrun a charging bull. This is why I believe it is not only stupid, it’s dangerous.

I read plenty thank you.

 

[Robert Maynard]

By some reports, just manufacturing the car in the first place consumes 50% of the car's lifetime CO2:

Manufacturing a car creates as much carbon as driving it

Making a new car creates as much carbon pollution as driving it, so it's often bettrer to keep your old banger on the road than to upgrade to a greener model

www.theguardian.com

 

[Factabulous]

i’m not defending petrol cars. The point about it being a step really wants examining. It’s a tiny, tiny step that seems to have earned the largest self-congratulatory parade in history. It’s one tiny, shuffled step in an attempt to outrun a charging bull. This is why I believe it is not only stupid, it’s dangerous.

I read plenty thank you.

So you're saying we should do nothing, just keep our fingers crossed that we don't kill the planet / run out of oil? Small changes in the right direction are better than none. Anyone congratulating themselves on owning an electric car is also dumb - as Mr Maynard points out a lot of the waste is in the creation of any car - but certainly I look forward to the day when we can save that 50% by having all electric cars charged from green energy. And meanwhile we can work on making the remaining 50% less damaging. Progress eh!

 

[[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos]

So you're saying we should do nothing, just keep our fingers crossed that we don't kill the planet / run out of oil? Small changes in the right direction are better than none. Anyone congratulating themselves on owning an electric car is also dumb - as Mr Maynard points out a lot of the waste is in the creation of any car - but certainly I look forward to the day when we can save that 50% by having all electric cars charged from green energy. And meanwhile we can work on making the remaining 50% less damaging. Progress eh!

No, I’m suggesting we do more than take incremental, tiny baby steps then have a back slapping parade to congratulate ourselves that serve more purpose in kidding ourselves than solving the problem.

We’re addicted to the idea of cars. Just like an addict we delude ourselves that minimal use is fine. Like a heroin addict who says I’ll cut down to using a bit less and use less often. It’s not radical enough.

I doubt we’re actually going to be able to turn things around in time, we can’t even slow down the damage we’re doing and once done, it’s out of our control to fix the damage. We fired the gun, the bullet is traveling. Swapping our rifle for a pistol is not stopping the fired bullet and we’re still armed.

 

[Screemonster]

Hey, so they move the exhaust elsewhere. If that helps solve urban air pollution then I'm all for it. Large engines tend to be more efficient than small engines thanks to economies of scale anyway, and unlike a car that has to constantly stop/start in traffic, they can be kept running at their most efficient speed. Hybrids can benefit from this same principle of keeping the engine ticking over at the optimum rpm instead of having to rev up/down as the car does.

 

[[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos]

Hey, so they move the exhaust elsewhere. If that helps solve urban air pollution then I'm all for it.

I don’t like poo-poo in my house so I only poo-poo in the neighbours garden. My house is lovely. The neighbour hates his garden.

 

[Screemonster]

I don’t like poo-poo in my house so I only poo-poo in the neighbours garden. My house is lovely. The neighbour hates his garden.

I don't like to leave poo in either my house or my neighbour's garden. I send the poo to the sweage works thanks to this wonderful invention we call plumbing, which is better equipped to deal with poo than either my house or my neighbour's garden.

Is there a point to this or are you just waving around the "we're all doomed" flag

 

[[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos]

By some reports, just manufacturing the car in the first place consumes 50% of the car's lifetime CO2:

Manufacturing a car creates as much carbon as driving it

Making a new car creates as much carbon pollution as driving it, so it's often bettrer to keep your old banger on the road than to upgrade to a greener model

www.theguardian.com

So instead of binning the old car, pay to have it converted. I suppose that could be a solution but our compulsion to have the car is just crazy.

Like I said earlier, an addict tells themselves anything to keep using, the rest of of us look at them saying, ‘Sure Dave, you don’t do heroin in the mornings but you’re still an addict’.

 

[[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos]

I don't like to leave poo in either my house or my neighbour's garden. I send the poo to the sweage works thanks to this wonderful invention we call plumbing, which is better equipped to deal with poo than either my house or my neighbour's garden.

Is there a point to this or are you just waving around the "we're all doomed" flag

I’m interested in the mass-delusion. Like, no matter where you keep the poison in your home (the planet), you’re still poisoning a part of your home. We some how seem to justify by deluding ourselves.

 

[GonzTheMalificent]

Forget electric cars. They are Betamax.

The future is Hydrogen.

 

[Robert Maynard]

So instead of binning the old car, pay to have it converted. I suppose that could be a solution but our compulsion to have the car is just crazy.

Like I said earlier, an addict tells themselves anything to keep using, the rest of of us look at them saying, ‘Sure Dave, you don’t do heroin in the mornings but you’re still an addict’.

What is the proposal to move all of those people who have chosen to live where they do based on their access to cars to and from their place of work in a timely manner (i.e. often where "public" transport is woefully inadequate / inefficient)?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Forget electric cars. They are Betamax.

The future is Hydrogen.

Hydrogen is an interesting possibility - but not very energy dense.

I would not be surprised if some form of CO2 "recycling" (i.e. remove from air and combine with water to produce alcohols suitable for existing petrol and diesel engines) were to be introduced to make use of the existing liquid fuel distribution network - which would retain the range benefits of liquid fuelled vehicles with less "new" CO2 from ancient hydrocarbons.

 

[[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos]

What is the proposal to move all of those people who have chosen to live where they do based on their access to cars to and from their place of work in a timely manner (i.e. often where "public" transport is woefully inadequate / inefficient)?

I don’t really have a solution but glorifying our achievements in reducing the amount of times we punch ourselves in our own face is just dumb. There’s no honesty in it, we delude ourselves. We’re so dependent on cars we cant think of way of replacing them, we cling on to the idea because, apparently, we can think of no other option.

 

[Iskariot]

Electric cars do nothing but kid people on they are ‘helping the environment’ but this is a flat out lie.

The first thing is, exhaust. Correct, the car itself produces no exhaust fumes as it silently glides down the road, this is the very foundation of the lie. Whilst I admit that a car not producing exhaust fumes has to be a small improvement, the importance of that is blown way out of proportion to disguise the fact that the electric car is still an environment disaster.

I don’t believe there is a country on the planet that is able to produce electricity entirely from clean sources, say solar or wind harvesting. No. It’s still primarily burning fossil fuels with added nuclear. So this idea that Mr or Mrs Smug has, that their car is clean and wonderful, is just stupid and an appeasement to their guilt that they too are creating pollution.

Sure, Smugo, your car isn’t belching fumes, directly, out the back of it but somewhere a chimney at a power plant is churning out tons of harmful clouds into our air or some gently caressushima/Chernobyl wannabe is creating an unholy waste product that we’ve been oh so clever in creating but not so good at disposing of. So all you have done is displace the mess, not dispose of it. No mess out the front of your house, it’s all in someone else’s back yard. Big slap on the back for you.

The car itself is still an ecological mess. Taking 7 gallons of oil to make just one tyre and that doesn’t count the further oil needed in the production process to manufacture the tyre, just the ingredients for the tyre alone. 28 gallons of oil to shoe your car plus 7 more to have a spare.

The chassis and body work soak up yet more oil and materials, again, the energy and oil to harvest and manipulate them are enormous. The cars exterior is smothered in oil based paint and lacquer, the cars interior is smothered in plastic (oil) and more furnishings that cost a ton of energy to produce.

It’s an Emperor’s new clothes thing. You’re kidding yourself that you’re somehow being responsible, that you’re not contributing to air pollution. It’s a lie. You are and you’re stupid to believe anything else.

I think in general you are right.
Being green has become an industry of lies and deception, and 'they' are very good at it. We are also very good at deceiving ourselves.
There's no such thing as a green car. It is a fantasy. There is no such thing as a green human being. That is a fantasy too.
Human society is a society of destruction. We can't help it. We are what we are.

I am not sure how old you are, but take it from an old man: Let it go.
It no longer upsets me, like it used to do. I have decided to care no longer, because there is nothing I can do about 7.5 billion people destroying the very place they depend upon.
I consider it our destiny to consume this planet. We are the vermin of the universe, we are the killer apes.
As I said: We are what we are.

Let it go, and your life will improve drastically. I have decided not to be deceived any longer, nor will I deceive myself any longer by pretending I could change the irreversible mess we are in now. Mankind only changes when there is no other option. And I am sure millions more will have to die before we will truly change our ways.

 

[[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos]

I think in general you are right.
Being green has become an industry of lies and deception, and 'they' are very good at it. We are also very good at deceiving ourselves.
There's no such thing as a green car. It is a fantasy. There is no such thing as a green human being. That is a fantasy too.
Human society is a society of destruction. We can't help it. We are what we are.

I am not sure how old you are, but take it from an old man: Let it go.
It no longer upsets me, like it used to do. I have decided to care no longer, because there is nothing I can do about 7.5 billion people destroying the very place they depend upon.
I consider it our destiny to consume this planet. We are the vermin of the universe, we are the killer apes.
As I said: We are what we are.

Let it go, and your life will improve drastically. I have decided not to be deceived any longer, nor will I deceive myself any longer by pretending I could change the irreversible mess we are in now. Mankind only changes when there is no other option. And I am sure millions more will have to die before we will truly change our ways.

I’m 50 and I have sort of let it go. I understand/accept the futility of life and even embrace it. I completely agree with all the points you’ve made it’s just sometimes, this morning, I wake up, look out the window and see that twanger over the road smugly cleaning his hybrid car and I boil over.

 

[Iskariot]

I’m 50 and I have sort of let it go. I understand/accept the futility of life and even embrace it. I completely agree with all the points you’ve made it’s just sometimes, this morning, I wake up, look out the window and see that twanger over the road smugly cleaning his hybrid car and I boil over.

Perhaps that twanger is just trying to do his best to reduce his so called footprint (buzzword). Or perhaps he only bought the car, because he likes the model.
If you get upset about something so insignificant, then perhaps there is an other underlying cause?

 

[WeComeInPeace]

@XloubellXX

It's not only the cars. The thing is that humans have found ways to raise our carrying capacity on the planet. When you raise the carrying capacity it leads to a larger population. Right now we spend much more resources than the biosphere can regenerate, so we are stressing the biosphere mainly due to the population size. We have painted ourselves into a corner, without being aware that we did so.

Today we still get close to 90% of the energy we consume from fossil sources. At the same time we use roughly 30% of that energy to produce food and distribute it to the consumers. If we decided to stop using fossil energy tomorrow, that would cause the food security to evaporate. Billions would die from starvation. On the other hand, if we don't stop causing climate change, it will seriously reduce the global crop yield per hectare, maybe as much as 50%.

The only solution we have right now is going back to manual labor, but that would considerably reduce the crop yield as well. Also we need to produce closer to where the food is consumed.

There are 350 million trucks and busses in the world, and one billion cars. The trucks have only ~1/10 the milage of a car, so it resembles 3.5 billion cars. That's a lot of diesel turned into CO2, but we currently don't have any electric trucks, and we might never get them.