Major Directional Change - Migrate ED to a First-person RTS

[Azmuth Divarchchron]

We already have FPS content comming in 2020, its been on frontier's roadmap for years and the recent leak only confirms it.
besides the cockpit/bridge technicaly is FPS already we just cant get up and walk yet.

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

One of the problems I have with the X series and why I never really got into it is the way that they combine first person spaceship flying and economic builder/fleet manager. I like both genres individually: Elite Dangerous and OpenTTD (with the FIRS addon, which is quite X-ish in how the economy works) are both games I've played a lot of. But I find that when the two are combined, it ends up with

• the asset and fleet management strategic side being made irritating by the need to fly around to do stuff rather than having a proper top-down multi-window interface that can control it properly
• the flying around side being interrupted by the need to go micro-manage something, or get involved in the strategy side to get the resources needed for the flying around bit
• the timescales of the two not quite meeting up: it can take hours for the freighters to move around ... whereas the flying is genuinely real-time.

A separate RTS or Economy Manager game set in the Elite Dangerous universe with a lot of the same parameters - but sped up - that could be very good. I don't think trying to fit it all into the same interface would work well, though.



In practical terms, I think balancing this against the rest of the game would be extremely difficult. If the activities of your AI ships are generally profitable, then it's not hard to set up some infinite money loops by getting a bunch of them to mine in an uninhabited system, sell to some quiet fringe system where they won't be disturbed, repeat, use the profits to buy more miners. Maybe you'd also need to buy some escort ships so that the (abstracted) result of the battles this fleet had against pirates were all victories without you needing to personally escort the miners. Once you have infinite money - or at least earnings faster than you can really spend them - you can then throw that around with less profitable stuff like combat ships to influence the BGS and cut basically everyone else out of the game. There's enough complaints about BGS bots already without Frontier providing a "get your own very large fleet of official bots" mechanism to allow a small number of ultra-wealthy commanders to overwhelm any normal player activity with no real scope for reprisals. (In a single-player/small multiplayer RTS spin-off this mechanic would be actively desirable and not a problem at all!)

Limiting the number of support ships your fleet can have doesn't necessarily help with this - at most, it slows it down.

On the other hand if the activities are not profitable (and there only needs to be one profitable "recipe" for everyone with a fleet to set that off in the background), it's just more grind for you personally to keep the fleet's balance topped up with void opals.



There's also big questions around "if your fleet does something, but no player is in the instance, what happens?". If two AI fleets meet when no player is around to see it, what happens? A dedicated combat pilot with a well-engineered ship could probably wipe out several fleets of NPCs while their owners were asleep (massacre missions are basically just that) - balancing the feature between "gain infinite power quickly" and "your entire fleet was wiped out by CMDR Bob while you slept" would be really tricky.

Awesome feedback, thank you.

I think the majority of it is potentially solvable. In terms of how your navy is controlled, it would be via remote instruction from anywhere in the galaxy. There would be a custom interface for moving units across the galaxy map, and for remotely directing battles, and it could quite conceivably be top-down or isometric.

What’s more an issue for me from the concerns you raised is how to balance BGS impact, and that will require some thinking. I’ll look into the other items as well though.

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

It is a completely different thing.... in ED you're just one pilot in a giant universe, and the way the world works (including Factions) are out of your direct control.

In your suggestion, every player is potentially the next Zemina Torval. That's not ED, that's a whole different game.

There's no van to speak of in that world.

Every player who wants to be can try to become an Admiral if they put in the work. My question to you, since you obviously don’t want that kind of gameplay, was how is this going to prevent you from continuing to play as you have?

Ian Doncaster has raised some excellent points though regarding that, and I’ll be having a think about those.

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

We already have FPS content comming in 2020, its been on frontier's roadmap for years and the recent leak only confirms it.
besides the cockpit/bridge technicaly is FPS already we just cant get up and walk yet.

What I’m suggesting is more RTS than FPS, but any FPS content added shouldn’t conflict with it anyway.

 

[Sysmon]

That's another game. So no thanks.

S

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

I would suggest no, and not simply because it isn't the game I purchased, the game I purchased isn't finished by a long way, it has years of work ahead of it before it becomes anywhere near the game I purchased, and you are suggesting major changes that could impact or completely halt the development of the game in its current direction, which is basically a free form explorable galaxy with no end game.

I would suggest as others said that this needs to be a separate game if it is developed at all, and I would be immensly dissapointed if current game development was halted to send the game in a different direction at this stage.

I can understand if your objection is based on a preference for a different development direction, but I still always prefer judging a suggestion on its own merits, i.e. by asking myself, would I have fun playing it?

Having said that, with this suggestion, the game still remains a freeform explorable galaxy. As for the term “end game”, I feel it’s possibly being misconstrued here, but please correct me if I’m wrong. All I’m really advocating in terms of end game is a higher level of objectives, and not a way to “finish” the game. Quite the contrary. It’s intended to keep more players involved for longer.

In any case, Ian Doncaster has pointed out some specific issues that need to be addressed so that this added gameplay doesn’t disadvantage other players who aren’t going to play as Admirals.

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

That's another game. So no thanks.

S

Well yes and no. The current game will remain for any players who aren’t going to play as Admirals (provided some of the issues are worked out), and this additional gameplay is more like an extension, but can still be considered a game within a game.

 

[Sysmon]

Well yes and no. The current game will remain for any players who aren’t going to play as Admirals (provided some of the issues are worked out), and this additional gameplay is more like an extension, but can still be considered a game within a game.

The only way I can see that happen is if each individual "admiral player" had near-zero influence on the BGS (which we really should anyway except maybe at the fringes of the civilised galaxy), and if the assets under their control would be fully NPC-cannonfodder for everybody else. Then this kind of RTS game can play out, but with a significant risk of loss and without much opportunity for imposing influence.

I'm not sure if anybody would really want to be subjected to that.

The idea is nice, but again it is another game. Anyway, I think Master of Orion already went there.

S

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Well yes and no. The current game will remain for any players who aren’t going to play as Admirals (provided some of the issues are worked out), and this additional gameplay is more like an extension, but can still be considered a game within a game.

But it will have a direct effect on the BGS, so anyone that is involved in the BGS and has a faction that they support will have no choice but to use those mechanics. It directly effects the core of the game so it will effect the people that play the game regardless.

If it's just another layer that has virtually zero effect on the BGS and the galaxy at large then I don't see the point in it. It will just become another powerplay.

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

The only way I can see that happen is if each individual "admiral player" had near-zero influence on the BGS (which we really should anyway except maybe at the fringes of the civilised galaxy), and if the assets under their control would be fully NPC-cannonfodder for everybody else. Then this kind of RTS game can play out, but with a significant risk of loss and without much opportunity for imposing influence.

I'm not sure if anybody would really want to be subjected to that.

The idea is nice, but again it is another game. Anyway, I think Master of Orion already went there.

S

I think that’s a bit extreme. I would say the impact on the BGS would need to be balanced, though I admit it would be difficult.

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

But it will have a direct effect on the BGS, so anyone that is involved in the BGS and has a faction that they support will have no choice but to use those mechanics. It directly effects the core of the game so it will effect the people that play the game regardless.

If it's just another layer that has virtually zero effect on the BGS and the galaxy at large then I don't see the point in it. It will just become another powerplay.

I agree. If that aspect is not seriously addressed and balanced, it will adversely impact the play of non-Admirals. That and other issues is what I was referring to when I said “provided they’re sorted out”.

 

[Lestat]

You know CMDR Novindus I think you are talking about a different game.

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

You know CMDR Novindus I think you are talking about a different game.

Lol, you’re only about the tenth person to say that.

I maintain that it’s an introduction of new gameplay, which if balanced and implemented well should not adversely impact the existing gameplay.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I agree. If that aspect is not seriously addressed and balanced, it will adversely impact the play of non-Admirals. That and other issues is what I was referring to when I said “provided they’re sorted out”.

But then if it is completely balanced with normal play, then what would be the point in doing it?

I would much prefer them to spend their time doing something more constructive with the game such as Elite Feet, Atmospheric planets and continue to expand on current mechanics instead of trying to create a brand new game and then trying to put it into a current game. I can see it being a complete mess.

As I said, nice idea, but not in ED. ED is the wrong type of game for that. I would have no issues if FDev created Elite:Wars a RTS game of the Elite universe which is completely seperate from ED.

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

But then if it is completely balanced with normal play, then what would be the point in doing it?

I would much prefer them to spend their time doing something more constructive with the game such as Elite Feet, Atmospheric planets and continue to expand on current mechanics instead of trying to create a brand new game and then trying to put it into a current game. I can see it being a complete mess.

As I said, nice idea, but not in ED. ED is the wrong type of game for that. I would have no issues if FDev created Elite:Wars a RTS game of the Elite universe which is completely seperate from ED.

Balance doesn’t mean equal impact. It’s more proportional. Just like working cooperatively as part of a large group to boost the influence of a player faction or a Power will (and should) have a greater impact than working solo or in a small group.

I’m still thinking on it, but what I would aim for preliminarily is for player factions and normal PowerPlay players to be competitive against Navies in terms of the ability to effect influence, and this would also depend on the number of players involved. I think it’s doable, albeit difficult.

As for ED not being that kind of game, my position is that it fundamentally already is in a sense. My suggestion is mostly taking existing assets and underlying mechanics, and tying them together in a way that gives players more significant interactions with existing systems. I’m basically advocating for players to be able to become like Powers, and essentially do what the Powers are doing, but on a smaller scale.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Balance doesn’t mean equal impact. It’s more proportional. Just like working cooperatively as part of a large group to boost the influence of a player faction or a Power will (and should) have a greater impact than working solo or in a small group.

Then it leaves people no choice but to use that game mode whether they want to or not.

I’m still thinking on it, but what I would aim for preliminarily is for player factions and normal PowerPlay players to be competitive against Navies in terms of the ability to effect influence, and this would also depend on the number of players involved. I think it’s doable, albeit difficult.

I think it will be a hot mess. Also there are no player factions. There are player made factions, but they are still NPC owned faction. No player/s own a faction and from what I can tell, never will.

As for ED not being that kind of game, my position is that it fundamentally already is in a sense.

No it really isn't.

My suggestion is mostly taking existing assets and underlying mechanics, and tying them together in a way that gives players more significant interactions with existing systems.

Your idea is taking existing assets and changing them completely to be something else entirely.

I’m basically advocating for players to be able to become like Powers, and essentially do what the Powers are doing, but on a smaller scale.

Which the game has never been about and neither do I want it to be about. It is not something I want to see in the game, ever.

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

Then it leaves people no choice but to use that game mode whether they want to or not.

Not if it’s balanced to be competitive. That would allow both methods to be viable, providing the choice to players.

I think it will be a hot mess. Also there are no player factions. There are player made factions, but they are still NPC owned faction. No player/s own a faction and from what I can tell, never will.

I’m referring of course to registered Player Minor Factions, which players work towards increasing the influence of. The aim would be to make sure their efforts to increase the influence of the faction are still effective in light of the introduction of Navies.

No it really isn't.

I’ve specified the similarities. Powers effectively fill the role of Admiral that I’ve described, but on a grander scale. Players already strategise to cooperatively impact the BGS to the advantage of the Power or Faction they’ve chosen. I’m essentially suggesting providing better tools to accomplish that in a more engaging and satisfying way.

Your idea is taking existing assets and changing them completely to be something else entirely.

I don’t believe I’ve suggested that the existing assets or underlying systems be altered in any fundamental way. Everything will work pretty much as it always has. It’s primarily the methods of interaction with these assets and systems that this new gameplay is making additions to.

Which the game has never been about and neither do I want it to be about. It is not something I want to see in the game, ever.

Saying you simply don’t want this added gameplay is fair enough. My point though is that what I’m suggesting, Powers pretty much do already, which lends to the assertion that ED is - in a sense - this type of game already, but for AI, not for players, which to me is a shame.

I think a little more imagination and flexibility, and a little less rigidity and narrow scoping would do the game wonders, particularly if it can be organised in a way that doesn’t deprecate existing gameplay.

 

[Old Duck]

I have been playing ED as an RTS for the last month or so. Well, I suppose it's more of a turn-based strategy game thanks to the tick. It's completely changed the game for me. I'm not doing this on a faction scale, but rather factions are my "pawns" to advance my "Superpower" (Federation, Empire, Alliance, or Independent - not telling you which) throughout a certain sector of space.

While flipping systems on the galaxy map like a giant game of Othello is great fun, I'm also trying to do this in a logical way where I can set up profitable trade routes between flipped systems to further strengthen "my" systems while also making some extra credits. I'm also trying to flip specific star ports so non-BGS players inadvertently help me out. This is a bit trickier, as it requires me causing wars in systems where my pawn faction already is in control of the system. I'm even mixing a little PowerPlay into the equation!

I guess my point is that Frontier doesn't usually listen to suggestions, so we have to play the game we have. I have figured out a way to squeeze out a bit more enjoyment from ED using the current BGS, and I'd recommend the OP give it a try while waiting on Frontier to bring any changes (which would likely be to PowerPlay if they were to do anything at all).

 

[Sylow]

So all in all the suggestion is "you made a nice game, now dump it and make another one"?

Wouldn't it be more reasonable that another game would simply be built seperately, instead of destroying an existing game to turn it into something else?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Not if it’s balanced to be competitive. That would allow both methods to be viable, providing the choice to players.

I am perfectly happy with choice's, but this isn't the way forward.

I’m referring of course to registered Player Minor Factions, which players work towards increasing the influence of. The aim would be to make sure their efforts to increase the influence of the faction are still effective in light of the introduction of Navies.

PMFs are still not owned by player/s. They are called player made factions, not player owned factions.

I’ve specified the similarities. Powers effectively fill the role of Admiral that I’ve described, but on a grander scale. Players already strategise to cooperatively impact the BGS to the advantage of the Power or Faction they’ve chosen. I’m essentially suggesting providing better tools to accomplish that in a more engaging and satisfying way.

Powerplay has virtually zero effect on the game world. What I would be happy about is if powerplay was much more intertwined with the BGS and basically made as another layer of the BGS instead of something that is virtually completely seperate.

I don’t believe I’ve suggested that the existing assets or underlying systems be altered in any fundamental way. Everything will work pretty much as it always has. It’s primarily the methods of interaction with these assets and systems that this new gameplay is making additions to.

You said using existing assets. To use those, you are going to have to change them in some way.

Saying you simply don’t want this added gameplay is fair enough. My point though is that what I’m suggesting, Powers pretty much do already, which lends to the assertion that ED is - in a sense - this type of game already, but for AI, not for players, which to me is a shame.

Powers have very little effect on the BGS. I don't like powerplay in its current implementation either.

I think a little more imagination and flexibility, and a little less rigidity and narrow scoping would do the game wonders, particularly if it can be organised in a way that doesn’t deprecate existing gameplay.

I agree, it would certainly do the game wonders, but not a RTS game plonked on top of what is effectively a First Person Perspective game.