Seamless

[-VR- Max Factor]

Do you think there is a chance that elite in the new era will be completely seamless? Stations transitions, uss's, megaships, thargoids, combat zones, planet surface with atmosphere... Will ED ever get away from this closed boxes game style?

What do you mean by closed box? None of the different areas are seperate. You can fly in normal space from planet to planet and station to planet.

Supercruise is there to just reduce the time it takes unless you want it to take years to get from one place in a system to another.

 

[thistle]

Frontier: Elite 2 had seamless gameplay for everything except hyperspace jumps. The company didn't only just work it out for Elite Dangerous. Hell, games have been doing it for years. No Man's Sky has seamless gameplay (again, except for hyperspace, and I'm not counting dynamic loading for this discussion).
I don't even care about this discussion, I'm just popping in to remind everybody that it's not new tech, it's multiplayer limitations (in terms of needing separate normalspace/supercruise instances) and hardware limitations (in terms of not loading literally everything in the game at once, which is just dumb). If they could have, they would have.

Sure, I know, but my point isn't that it couldn't be done like Elite 2 or to some degree NMS, but that the design of Elite Dangerous is what it is - the reason we have the problems ( I dont agree with the OP they are problems btw). The game would need to be written again to remove instancing.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Frontier: Elite 2 had seamless gameplay for everything except hyperspace jumps. The company didn't only just work it out for Elite Dangerous. Hell, games have been doing it for years. No Man's Sky has seamless gameplay (again, except for hyperspace, and I'm not counting dynamic loading for this discussion).
I don't even care about this discussion, I'm just popping in to remind everybody that it's not new tech, it's multiplayer limitations (in terms of needing separate normalspace/supercruise instances) and hardware limitations (in terms of not loading literally everything in the game at once, which is just dumb). If they could have, they would have.

NMS is not seamless. Also the "star systems" are fake in NMS. There is no sun to fly around, no orbits, the planets are tiny etc.

Elite 2 is a single player game and doesn't suffer from network instancing that ED does.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

There's been plenty of suggestions how to make it (seemingly) seamless.

Wouldn't take too much effort and you'd enjoy silk smooth transitions - a well-played illusion - while Instancing being prepared in the background at all times.

The ideas didn't take off though, so I take it seamless transitions aren't desired and DB's definition of "seamless" is merely... different.
Maybe the current mechanics are deemed "seamless" enough.

 

[Arry]

Food for thought: keep everything 'seamed', except flying into stations, which now has to be done at light speed with pixel accuracy.

..................Just using the HUD radar systems?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

That makes zero difference whatsoever, given I stated that I'm not counting dynamic loading (which is literally necessary for any game of such large scale which doesn't need to run on a supercomputer) but thanks for your input.

Of course it does. It is easy for NMS as everything is so close to each other they don't need a seperate instances layer to get there in good time, there is not need for navigation, there is no need for interdictions as everything is so close, there is no long distance scanning, the ships don't need to traval that fast to get to each one which helps with networking.

You see while NMS seems more seamless (it isn't) it has a lot of stuff missing which would have to happen to ED to get it to work. This is the work around for playing multiplayer game with a 1-1 scale galaxy and solar systems.

You see, NMS is full of smoke and mirrors in normal space, ED has that in supercruise.

Which one do you prefer. Personally I prefer EDs way. To me it feels bigger and better.

 

[Vandaahl]

I stated that I'm not counting dynamic loading (which is literally necessary for any game of such large scale which doesn't need to run on a supercomputer) but thanks for your input.

Dynamic loading? What is there to load in a procedurally generated game?

 

[Arry]

Is there a limit, to the size of instances?

Nav beacons for example? D they have a limited size? Logically; they do.

That said. A Stations instance, is almost infinite. You can launch from a station, stay in normal space and (if you have enough fuel) you can fly around, the nearest planet/body. Then come back into the 7.5Km zone and request landing. I am not sure, what would happen, if you logged off, half way around.

So what dictates, the size of an instance?

 

[IndigoWyrd]

It would take a full blown rewrite of the Cobra Engine to accommodate a true "seamless" galaxy, with data preloading as you approach stations, planets, points of interest, even while charging a frame shift jump. And of course, as noted, this would have a pretty notable performance hit based on individual bandwidth, latency and machine specs.

Impossible, no. Practical? No.

Perhaps in Elite: Deadly with the advent of the King Cobra Engine, we might see something more like this, but not here.

 

[obliterator]

NMS is not seamless.

It sure feels like it though. That's what actually matters.

 

[[VR] Goooost]

Do you think there is a chance that elite in the new era will be completely seamless? Stations transitions, uss's, megaships, thargoids, combat zones, planet surface with atmosphere... Will ED ever get away from this closed boxes game style?

It's possible. I dont know how no mans sky does it. That was the one thing that really struck me. I know that they've said that they have a few pieces of code that are truly clever, and perhaps that's one of them.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

It sure feels like it though. That's what actually matters.

I actually find ED feels pretty seamless too most of the time. The drop from supercruise into glide I really don't notice the transition, also I would like to see the glide added to all the drops from supercruise, so you drop further out and glide in on the supercruise wake to the station and go to normal speed at the usual distance.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

It's possible. I dont know how no mans sky does it. That was the one thing that really struck me. I know that they've said that they have a few pieces of code that are truly clever, and perhaps that's one of them.

Most likely because you don't really see other players ships around travelling at faster then light speeds. None of the speeds in NMS are that fast because everything is so close together. It's a very short trip in sublight speeds.

Thats a major difference. In ED everything is 1-1 in scale so Fdev can't simulate faster then light in normal space with other commanders that are not as not even Fdev can make things go that fast.

You see, if there were normal ships going normal speed, there would be actual commanders going faster then light relative to them in the computer game, but that is not possible to do currently with the technology we have, maybe quantum computers.can do that.

That is why supercruise has to be in a different level. How Fdev do supercruise is beyond me though. You would have to ask them. My guess is that the faster you go, the smaller the solar system becomes to make it feel you are going fast. Probably the reason why you are forced to slow down on approach to planets, but I could be completely wrong on that.

 

[Viajero]

My guess is that the faster you go, the smaller the solar system becomes to make it feel you are going fast.

I don’t think the systems scale is shrinked at all. The scale is always 1:1. Coordinates positioning etc is in 64b double precision floating point. We are just cruising really really fast. Trying to reduce the scale based on speed is probably even more resource consuming than leaving it at 1:1.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I don’t think the systems scale is shrinked at all. The scale is always 1:1. Coordinates positioning etc is in 64b double precision floating point. We are just cruising really really fast. Trying to reduce the scale based on speed is probably even more resource consuming than leaving it at 1:1.

I don't think even Fdev can make things go faster then the speed of light and break the laws of physics. There will have to be some kind of smoke and mirrors to make it feel like we are travelling at those speeds. What they are, I have no idea, but I bet it's the reason why there is a seperate instance layer for just supercruise, otherwise it wouldn't be needed.

 

[Viajero]

I don't think even Fdev can make things go faster then the speed of light and break the laws of physics.

Don’t think that an issue, our ships are not really moving in real space, have no real mass or are in any way subject to real life relativity effects; they are just pixels, maths and code

 

[777Driver]

I'm not talking about loading time. I'm talking about the existence of a scenario outside its box. If you don't drop correctly at a station but you intentionally drop far away from it, once you reach it you won`t see it because it's not phisically there... it's in its "box" instead

You can fly between stations in normal space, or fly between orbital or surface ports seamlessly in normal space. If you drop above a certain distance (from memory up to 1000km) you will not be orbiting with a matching relative velocity to the station.

 

[VR SenseiMatty]

If you drop above a certain distance (from memory above a few hundred km's) you will not be orbiting with a matching relative velocity to the station.

My doubt is concerning the new bug we have with installations. When you drop sometimes you see the installation model flying away from you at very high speed because that is in orbital flight but your ship is actually stopped.
So the speed indicator is always relative to the "ship instance". Now if I don't drop near the station but not in the same instance of the station I will see the station but I will not match its speed. This is the "box" concept I'm talking about, so you see the object but you can't interact. Is this the case?

 

[777Driver]

My doubt is concerning the new bug we have with installations. When you drop sometimes you see the installation model flying away from you at very high speed because that is in orbital flight but your ship is actually stopped.
So the speed indicator is always relative to the "ship instance". Now if I don't drop near the station but not in the same instance of the station I will see the station but I will not match its speed. This is the "box" concept I'm talking about, so you see the object but you can't interact. Is this the case?

The installations are a classic example, they rush away from you because they are incorrectly matching the orbit of one of the rings, the ship is either stationary or matching the planets orbits. There is a post out there that explains it all very well.

Basically (if attempting to travel in normal space) as long as your initial intercept angle get's you within 1000km's (accounting for the stations orbital path) the game should automatically match orbital velocity.

You could also test normal space travel with Rescue megaships and burning stations.

 

[Kenneth McGrew]

Do you think there is a chance that elite in the new era will be completely seamless? Stations transitions, uss's, megaships, thargoids, combat zones, planet surface with atmosphere... Will ED ever get away from this closed boxes game style?

the chances of me getting small seismic charges and the Dolphin heat bug fixed are more likely