Look back on my debates and you'll see me illustrate how Open makes mundane deliveries much more thrilling, because rather than being able to fly a shieldless T-9 laziliy into the slot, you have to be aware of enemies and traps that the NPCs simply can't provide. It means capitals become important centers to defend, as well as being more reactive to challenges in real time- a contrast to the BGS (which IMO is a good thing). Skill then means something, and your ship choices.
Make Open Play matter - Power Play and BGS should be influenced only in open
- Thread starter Hole in Head
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Look back on my debates and you'll see me illustrate how Open makes mundane deliveries much more thrilling, because rather than being able to fly a shieldless T-9 laziliy into the slot, you have to be aware of enemies and traps that the NPCs simply can't provide. It means capitals become important centers to defend, as well as being more reactive to challenges in real time- a contrast to the BGS (which IMO is a good thing). Skill then means something, and your ship choices.
Last attempt from me: you find it more thrilling; others don't. Let's let everyone just play in the mode they enjoy.
If Powerplay is to ever be popular it can't stay the same- its a failed, dying design kept alive by people like me who wait in vain for change of any sort. If FD want to attract more people to the game, then they have to make things that people want to do that stand apart from other features. Otherwise, whats the point?
As long as your propose changes to PP that only meet your dream of blowing up large ships of cargo you'll likely not get far.
I'm willing to bet that even if PP went Open only you'd never see a large cargo ship and it would be more dead than ever.
The idea is nice enough but I've yet to see any game where the fantasy of a large caravan with ships full of fat loot with accompanying guardships has actually materialized.
If you subject people to that sort of loss they simply go do other things - which has been a problem for people with your aspirations since the dawn of internet gaming.
Irrelevant that PP is optional in itself - Mining is optional, Exploration on the most part is optional, there are many OPTIONAL game activities BUT with ALL of them PvP is entirely optional.
What you are claiming is fundamentally false since PvP no-longer becomes optional for the PP feature - you are removing an option from players and that in itself is unacceptable.
Ultimately, it does not matter what any proposals may have suggested - when PP was released it was done as a generic feature and not a PvP-centric one - the horse has long since bolted on making any existing gameplay feature Open only and arguably any new gameplay features that measurably affect the (universally) shared universe state should not be implemented either.
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Er...no. I only intend to blow up targets that further the goals set out by the Powers plans for that week. Stop trying to paint people as homicidal maniacs.
And, if forting was all inbound, you'd see a fair amount of them in a capital, since thats the only place you can take PP materials in that design.
Because that would not happen- not at least with organised groups. Its more likely for smaller, faster ships with less cargo doing drops, or more compromised large vessels. Less cargo delivered more slowly means less certainty in forting 100%, which means more opportunities for attacks and turmoils, which leads to potentially more free space.
Optional as you opt into it- you accept the risk because thats what the pledge entails. For once it would make pledging actually carry weight, and not be some sort of passport to a module. There is no point to PP when you have the new BGS, and that everything in ED has dwarfed any bonus a power can provide.
Ultimately, it does not matter what any proposals may have suggested - when PP was released it was done as a generic feature
So you are saying nothing can change because it was released as a half finished, unsupported buggy mess?
I understand Rubbernuke's dream.
I understand that it would be thrilling to be in a wing, to stumble across a caravan loaded with loot, to be able to engage the guards, to be able to win (or lose) the encounter and potentially deliver a mind crushing blow to the opposition. It would be fun to stake out a section of space with a do or die blockade and to have others throw themselves against it - to barely hold back the enemy into the wee hours of the morning, to have battles that have consequence. I get it.
I've been playing these games for 20 years now and I've run across thousands of players that want that kind of gameplay. In fact, if you were to put up a poll I'm guessing you'd get about 70% of the fanbase absolutely losing their minds over the prospect of that type of play.
The only thing the community lacks is victims.
Put a poll up asking people if they'd like to spend hours mining resources, waiting around for 45 minutes for John to finish mowing the lawn so he can log on and lead the caravan, only to get about 15 minutes into the journey and get obliterated by a wing of 12 year-olds. The fact is the vast majority of players don't want to risk hours of work to be someone else's victim and even less players want to play the role of a guard. We aren't even getting into the silly tactics that would emerge (like the attackers only attacking the cargo ship and then fleeing). None of that sounds fun for the 'target' group.
If you think the problem is FDev, or PP, or such nonsense you're missing the bigger picture.
Nobody wants to grind for hours to be your victim - and if you don't get your head around that you'll never understand why your proposed changes won't work.
Period.
I understand that it would be thrilling to be in a wing, to stumble across a caravan loaded with loot, to be able to engage the guards, to be able to win (or lose) the encounter and potentially deliver a mind crushing blow to the opposition. It would be fun to stake out a section of space with a do or die blockade and to have others throw themselves against it - to barely hold back the enemy into the wee hours of the morning, to have battles that have consequence. I get it.
I've been playing these games for 20 years now and I've run across thousands of players that want that kind of gameplay. In fact, if you were to put up a poll I'm guessing you'd get about 70% of the fanbase absolutely losing their minds over the prospect of that type of play.
The only thing the community lacks is victims.
Put a poll up asking people if they'd like to spend hours mining resources, waiting around for 45 minutes for John to finish mowing the lawn so he can log on and lead the caravan, only to get about 15 minutes into the journey and get obliterated by a wing of 12 year-olds. The fact is the vast majority of players don't want to risk hours of work to be someone else's victim and even less players want to play the role of a guard. We aren't even getting into the silly tactics that would emerge (like the attackers only attacking the cargo ship and then fleeing). None of that sounds fun for the 'target' group.
If you think the problem is FDev, or PP, or such nonsense you're missing the bigger picture.
Nobody wants to grind for hours to be your victim - and if you don't get your head around that you'll never understand why your proposed changes won't work.
Period.
I don't confuse enjoying PvP with being some sort of real life maniac.
Murder all you want in game.
If you enjoy PvP why would you bother with cargo at all?
In this scenario you've imagined would you be running cargo or pirating?
If you wouldn't be running cargo, why not?
Irrelevant to the point I made.
I am saying any changes need to be additions to and not remove options - I thought I made that abundantly clear, to do otherwise would be for FD to breach their legal obligations to maintain the existing product (c/f Trading Standards).
To add enforcement of a PvP participation requirement to any existing feature or even to add a new feature that is both restricted to PvP and affects the universally shared-universe state would be a breach of their obligations.
That is not my dream or what I said, so actually read what I write.
I
This would not happen either, since its a cumulative effect and not Luke blowing up the Death Star.
Again, this is not what I'm suggesting or have suggested.
If you actually played Powerplay and got involved, you'd see why that is a silly thing to suggest.
Its not hours of work though. If you VO mine for two hours each week, you have enough money to gain 10,000 merits and R5. And you seem to think that 'victims' would just give up and die, rather than adapt with faster, stronger ships and have people looking out for them, or plan fort runs with wings interdicting attackers?
Having played Powerplay since its inception, I think I know how its players react better than you, who does what exactly?
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You seem to want to paint people who engage in combat in PP as some drooling idiot, so yes you are confused.
I enjoy a satisfying game where I overcome obstacles in real time. Delivering power materials against the odds is actually challenging and fun.
I'd be doing it all, depending on whats needed. Prep runs, cargo runs, killing, UM, protection.
Like I said before, roles are not static in PP, just as ships are not fixed. Parts can be swapped out to fit the need at the time. In a mode agnostic PP you min / max because the game lets you with no NPC opposition.
Its very relevant- Powerplay is optional but you have to pledge to do it.
FD can alter the game how they see fit.
FD are under no obligations legally in any way.
I'm not playing a victim card. I told you what would happen in a hypothetical Open only PP.
...and I made the point that I've not seen that happen in any PvP game that I've ever played.
I'm pitting years of experience against your hypothetical future state.
It isn't wrong to want what you've proposed, it isn't wrong to speculate on what would get us there, it isn't wrong to post ideas.
The problem has always been that there is always a huge contingent of baying wolves that want to swoop down and destroy a caravan but there is next to no one who wants to actually be a part of the caravan. Nobody wants to be the guy in the ship loaded with goods because nobody wants to have cargo racks where they could have hull reinforcements (or whatever). You're asking sub-optimal PvP ships to enter an arena full of meta-builds (1). There is nothing attractive about that proposition to the guy loaded up with cargo - in every game I've played that lasts for about two encounters and then that guy simply either leaves or becomes one of the baying wolves.
That core problem is much larger than FDev or the problem with Power Play.
There is no point in even considering changes to Power Play (IMHO) until that nut has been cracked.
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1: Until you fully comprehend what you're asking for here you're not going to understand why you're getting opposition.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Then there's the likely outcome that Powerplay focal points would be the new CG / Engineer systems - with a ready supply of targets for those who only seek targets and care not at all for Powerplay.
There seemed to be confusion about what is meant here. If you go back to Sandro's statement, powerplay was intended to be a consensual PVP experience. The idea is that if you sign up for Powerplay, you should expect to be intercepted by hostile players and should set up your ship appropritely. you are fair game for any ship ( including player ships) which are not aligned with our power.
If you are attacked by a player from an opposing power, they are not gankers, or pirates, they are doing their job for theif power, just as you are doing yours by hauling. Flying a min/max cargo T7 is suicide in this environment, which is why I gave up on Powerplay when it first came out. However, when you realise that you're more like a smuggler than a trucker, it becomes a lot more interesting hauling things.
If you are attacked by a player from an opposing power, they are not gankers, or pirates, they are doing their job for theif power, just as you are doing yours by hauling. Flying a min/max cargo T7 is suicide in this environment, which is why I gave up on Powerplay when it first came out. However, when you realise that you're more like a smuggler than a trucker, it becomes a lot more interesting hauling things.
The problem has always been that there is always a huge contingent of baying wolves that want to swoop down and destroy a caravan but there is next to no one who wants to actually be a part of the caravan. Nobody wants to be the guy in the ship loaded with goods because nobody wants to have cargo racks where they could have hull reinforcements (or whatever). You're asking sub-optimal PvP ships to enter an arena full of meta-builds (1). There is nothing attractive about that proposition to the guy loaded up with cargo - in every game I've played that lasts for about two encounters and then that guy simply either leaves or becomes one of the baying wolves.
This part: this already happens in PP- check out FUC, or the Kumo- it happens each week all the time by players fortifying in open.
For the rest I know exactly what you are saying, and from playing and being on the end of Powerplay I know how the patterns will change based on playing it for nearly 5 years.
With more effective opposition fortifying will change. It will be harder to do, and be less. This is good: it means large empires are harder to maintain. So, if you want to maintain your empire then you have to risk it. If not, then it becomes vulnerable. Again, good things.
In solo you can get away with a T-9 100% of the time because there is no opposition. In open you have to run smaller, faster ships or ones that actually have shields and defenses. Again, this affects fortification rates, which is good. There will not be wholesale slaughter with people crying. It simply won't happen, so stop trying to paint it that way- people will have to rely more on skill and properly think about loadouts and tactics.
So, in capitals you'll have defenders interdicting attackers while fortifiers slip through, or try to pass. If the defence is good then slower more vulnerable ships are possible. If not, then you have to use skill and decent ship builds. In essence its a game of catch, all in real time.
Money is no object any longer. VO mining in hours nets you hundreds of millions of credits. In an end game feature people are loaded with money and nothing to do with it.
What you don't understand is that Open PP is not about mass killing, its about modifying and attenuating supply lines and their regularity. Its allowing you to suddenly disrupt a power and fade away, and destabilize it in a freeform manner that generates proper emergent situations. I have not even touched on prep races, CZ battles, UM etc.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Really? As Powerplay was consciously implemented in all three game modes any PvP arising is doubly consensual - players can choose whether or not to pledge and then choose whether or not to play among other players.
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