The ADS

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Sorry - I miss seeing how your example is relevant.

I think the question is - how would you feel if NPC combat were removed after having engaged in it since ED was released?
It's relevant like this:-

1. I want to press a single button to get the benefits of doing combat without actually doing combat.

2. You want to press a single button to get the benefits of sensing the system without actually doing the sensing.

Should both of us have what we want, or neither?

(BTW, over there is the guy who'd like 100 billion credits without actually doing missions, mining or bounty hunting).
 
The F.F.S. sure was a big step in that direction, you no longer have to leave the system arrival point to fully explore the entire system. Might as well go all in and allows us to explore the entire galaxy peeking from our favorite home station mail slot. :D

What it did was move the exploration effort towards exploring details of the planetary bodies themselves. The reasons to fly to a planet now lies in ways to interact with the planets, be it for mining, PoI exploration, materials gathering, etc. A whole lot of game play can evolve from that. FDEV introduced a platform to build on, while the ADS was essentially a dead end.

:D S
 
There are two answers to this:

1. The fact that the replacement of the ADS with the FSS has been extremely detrimental to a range of exploration styles, with the result that players whose primary gameplay was exploration prior to v3.3 are no longer exploring, and in some cases no longer playing.
We KNOW FDev are ignoring this, because they told us that they have no plans to significantly alter exploration gameplay.

Gotta stop this right here. Those who feel they have been adversely affect raised their concerns, AND got a reply from FDev? A reply negates any possibility of being ignored. Because the response was not the desired response, means the concerns were heard and an answer given. This is the exact opposite of ignored. But the request was denied. That's "no for an answer." Continually asking again and again and again and again is called "Badgering", also known as "Not taking 'no' for an answer", something small, poorly disciplined children and under-disciplined adults excel at, but they still have not been ignored, until their badgering finally IS ignored, as that is the only means to say a thing and mean a thing - by standing by that thing. This likens to the argument made by those who defend the "exclusitivity" of the Cobra 4, claiming that because Frontier said this was an "exclusive" only available for a limited time, that making it available would be detrimental to their credibility.

How would reversing an answer of "No." be any different?

Whether this is a good decision is a matter of opinion.
There is also the fact that many players have requested enhancements/modifications to the FSS to improve the experience - but the FDev response implies that those things are also not on the radar.

Got a link to the last time someone posted/requested/demanded an enhancement/modification where someone from FDev said "That would be a great idea, let me get on that." You don't, and that's OK, because they make a habit of NOT doing these sorts of things. But I do know that requests do get heard, and do get implemented. Here are a couple I know of first-hand:

The Light icon when your ship's forward lights are enabled. I know I had personally requested this, sometime around 2.3. It took a while, but behold, there it is.

The "Body Count" when performing a Discovery Scan - again, myself and several others, during the beta, requested this. It made it into the last Beta, and went live.

Was anything said? Any acknowledgement given? Not at all. But these things were heard and responded to. Of course, let's look at another even bigger, frequently requested enhancement....

2. The fact that exploration beyond the mechanics of scanning a system remains a very shallow experience. There is minimal interaction with the things we discover by exploring and with the exception of a few specific types of object, everything that can be found in the game can be found within 1,000 LY of Sol. This issue has been raised repeatedly by both pro-ADS and pro-FSS players and there has, as far as I'm aware, been no comment from FDev on the subject. Now it's possible that FDev have great plans for continuing to develop exploration beyond what it is now, but unless the 'new era' is atmospheric landings that seems unlikely. Indeed, even if it is, there's nothing to suggest that atmospheric planets will have anything more than a different set of POIs to sometimes interact with.

... Atmospheric landing has been requested and requested and requested since the first dead-world landings of Horizons. Has this also been ignored? I'll wager not. But again, in typically Frontier fashion, they have simply opted to exercise their right to remain silent. Yes, there have been little snips, streams and comments here and there that this "something we want to do", and "it is still a ways off". That's not ignoring. That's just saying "Not right now." I can take "Not right now" as an answer. I can even take "no" as an answer. I might not like it, but my skin is thick enough to take it.

All-in-all, it feels (yes, subjective) that FDev consider that exploration is 'job-done' with the introduction of the FSS.

My son wanted a graphics card for his PC one year. He had some pretty grand ideas and schemes, and loved to drop little hints all the time, or talk up whatever was the current "latest, greatest thing". I made a habit of countering these presentations with "Yeah, it looks nice, but they always do in the ads." or "You do know in six months those will be half that price, as something newer and better takes its place?" and generally feigning disinterest. Little did he realize I'd already purchased a GeForce 1080, packed it up in a cleverly oversized box, under a layer of cardboard, sandwiched between a couple of layers of labeled cardboard, the topmost of which read: "Guess what you're getting for X-mas." and when lifted, revealed a large bag of peanuts, with a tag that read: "Dee's Nuts." and covered the packaging of the graphics card below.

All in all, it was quite the epic gift, and he did have to unpack the graphics card and actually look at it to confirm its authenticity.

In many ways, Frontier's Wall of Silence regarding future features and even features-in-progress is not that different. It also has the advantage of, by saying nothing, no one can turn around and go "But you said...."

We had a little taste of that last year when Fleet Carriers didn't make the 3.3 final cut. I think that bitterness has finally passed.

And I will also join you in being hopeful that Exploration is not in its final form, as there is still a tremendous amount of potential gameplay to be injected and enjoyed. I just happen to have the patience to wait and see what happens.

And on the subject of waiting, as I recall, I heard from far, far more Explorers clamoring for Updates For Exploration, back when Combat was the focus, and getting Thargoids into the game was the focus, and overhauling the C&P system was the focus, and some even dating back to the 1.x era, stating how "bare bones" and "placeholder" Exploration was back then. These voices were "ignored" for years, until Exploration was, indeed, updated.

And Exactly like the C&P revision, some people emptied their prams and filled their nappies over the changes. The rest of us just dealt with them.

Is there still room for improvement? Sure there is. Improvements have been suggested. I suspect very much things go something like this around FDev:

"Hey, check this out. You know how they haze the new interns by making them sift through the suggestion forums for things that sound like really good ideas, and then compare those to what we're already working on, as well as anything that might actually fit with what we're working on?"
"Yeah, what of it?"
"Well, the new intern brought me this, and it's exactly what we're going to be working on this afternoon, except this one says instead of a ' mark, we should use a * instead. I think they might just be right?"
"That's brilliant, I always liked the idea of a * myself. Let's get it into the demo for next week and see what the people who sign our paychecks think."
"I think they'll love it."
"I hope so, or it will be YOUR TURN to scrub all the tea cups."
 
The F.F.S. sure was a big step in that direction, you no longer have to leave the system arrival point to fully explore the entire system. Might as well go all in and allows us to explore the entire galaxy peeking from our favorite home station mail slot. :D
Sigh. The FSS does not and never will fully explore a system. It gets you information (maybe too much) that gives you reasons to go and explore the system more. Unfortunately those reasons are a bit slim at the moment. Hopefully that will change in the future as I doubt they are finished with creating things we can find.
 
I'm saying a module would be acceptable. My preference is the god awful zero sum mechanic that wouldn't make sense in regards to the games lore never sets foot in the game, so no, I will not push for it, but I will not fight against it.

What I will push for is my compromise which I think would make the game and the exploration mechanic better overall and give far more options.

I will also fight for more exploration tools for things such as soil and biological samples and other things like that, but they would be a bit useless if they don't have any meaning to them other then credits.
For the added functionality of a map reveal and targetable bodies on the system map (and of course nav. panel), needing to purchase an extra module and take up an extra module slot is at least a trade-off in some form, leaving the legitimacy of just using the FSS for those who prefer it.

There are any number of modules and features that have some use in exploration that I don't care to use, like heat sinks, repair limpets, jumponium, and similar. They seem kind of cheaty and unnecessary to me, but I don't begrudge other people for using them. I've technically never even needed to use an AFMU, but have one installed anyway because I might as well.
 
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Sigh. The FSS does not and never will fully explore a system. It gets you information (maybe too much) that gives you reasons to go and explore the system more. Unfortunately those reasons are a bit slim at the moment. Hopefully that will change in the future as I doubt they are finished with creating things we can find.
At first I thought the FSS might have good use for revealing additional, expanded content, instead of just existing content, so maybe that could be a thing too.

Don't know if that's something people and Frontier would go for though.
 
Gotta stop this right here. Those who feel they have been adversely affect raised their concerns, AND got a reply from FDev? A reply negates anypossibility of being ignored. Because the response was not the desired response, means the concerns were heard and an answer given. This is the exact opposite of ignored.
Concerns being dismissed with a seemingly off-hand and ill-considered response is essentially tantamount to being ignored. Concerns were possibly acknowledged but I doubt if they were truly taken into consideration, the nature of the reply seems to preclude that. More like - "oh shoot, shout no, then stick their head in the sand" - rather than considering what people are actually objecting to and facilitating an equitable resolution.
 
Concerns being dismissed with a seemingly off-hand and ill-considered response is essentially tantamount to being ignored. Concerns were possibly acknowledged but I doubt if they were truly taken into consideration, the nature of the reply seems to preclude that. More like - "oh shoot, shout no, then stick their head in the sand" - rather than considering what people are actually objecting to and facilitating an equitable resolution.
Delusional. About the only thing I can say about this post.
 
Its ok when its not exploration...

Ask the petition gang to take up your ADS case. I'm sure FDEV will deal with that in the same manner*.

:D S

*By politely escorting them out of the club while muttering assurances that they have been heard, it seems.
 
What it did was move the exploration effort towards exploring details of the planetary bodies themselves. The reasons to fly to a planet now lies in ways to interact with the planets, be it for mining, PoI exploration, materials gathering, etc. A whole lot of game play can evolve from that.

But unfortunately absolutely nothing did evolve, it's still the same void as before, compounding the problem. You now have to click and drag and drag and click just for the same result as before (next to nothing).

Of course, loads of things could be done to make exploring planets much more interesting and the FSS not just an end in itself, but nothing was actually done, and as we've waited 4 years for just the FSS, I wouldn't wait standing up for actual gameplay and content.

Of course I could be completely wrong and the "new era" brings loads of exploration improvements and content, but given what was done in the past 4 and a half years doesn't leave that much hopeful for the next 2 in the exploration department. I'd be very happy to be wrong though.
 
But unfortunately absolutely nothing did evolve, it's still the same void as before, compounding the problem. You now have to click and drag and drag and click just for the same result as before (next to nothing).

Of course, loads of things could be done to make exploring planets much more interesting and the FSS not just an end in itself, but nothing was actually done, and as we've waited 4 years for just the FSS, I wouldn't wait standing up for actual gameplay and content.

Of course I could be completely wrong and the "new era" brings loads of exploration improvements and content, but given what was done in the past 4 and a half years doesn't leave that much hopeful for the next 2 in the exploration department. I'd be very happy to be wrong though.

I have great hopes too! 5-ish years was a long time to wait for the upgrades. But there is synergy between the mining and exploration upgrades, so fingers are firmly crossed here! Hard to use a HOTAS that way, but worth it!

:D S

EDIT: Something did happen. We can find new PoIs on planetary surfaces relatively fast now.
 
When enough customers complain about X, it's worth considering to change X.

Except when changing X is not desirable for your product.

Let's consider: X to be a blend of 90/10 ground sirloin with a patented formulation of seasonings, which is then grilled a specific way, prepared and served in a specific way.

Enter enough "Customers" who complain, because they feel your 90/10 ground sirloin should be replaced with ground Tofu.

But your business is called "F-k Tofu, Eat Meat Burgers"

Now it sounds like you need to replace your customers instead.
 
Except when changing X is not desirable for your product.

Let's consider: X to be a blend of 90/10 ground sirloin with a patented formulation of seasonings, which is then grilled a specific way, prepared and served in a specific way.

Enter enough "Customers" who complain, because they feel your 90/10 ground sirloin should be replaced with ground Tofu.

But your business is called "F-k Tofu, Eat Meat Burgers"

Now it sounds like you need to replace your customers instead.

That's mean, now I'm hungry and lunch is still more than 2 hours away!

:D S
 
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