FSS improvement thread

What I would like to see:

1.) FSS an overlay in cockpit or displayed on the HUD or at least ....
2.) FSS Spectrum on HUD. Let me decide if the system is interesting to scan further without jumping in and out.

This isn't unlike my thoughts on this, however, you could wind up with a very cluttered HUD quickly.

3.) FSS functional at speeds above idle.

What's your hurry? It's not like you've got an end-game to get to.

4.) Longer range to the chevron guidance for a tuned-in signal. The scanner obviously knows what vector the signal comes from.

It took me a bit of effort to understand what were talking about here, and I don't disagree, though how much longer range?

5.) Bio / Geo sites indicated on the system map so I don't have to write down bodies to go back to later.
6.) Bio / Geo indication only in FSS maybe with a magnitude (high / med / low), DSS shows how many and where. Currently it's non-nonsensical.

Geo sites ARE given on the system map already - kind of. Let's look at System A.
System A has 6 stellar bodies, 2 High Metal Worlds with Neon Atmospheres, 3 Rocky Worlds, two with Geological POIs (Iron Magma and Silicate Geysers), and a Gas Giant with Ammonia Based Life.

If you look on the system map, you can see which worlds are landable - which means which ones could have POI's. If you switch to the details tab and highlight each body, you can then see which have Volcanic data - Iron Magma or Silicate Geysers in the details, which means you CAN see which have Geological POI's.
Biological though... this could use some kind of system map indicator.

But I'll push even further here - I'd love to see these POI's shown on the planetary map as well.
 
This isn't unlike my thoughts on this, however, you could wind up with a very cluttered HUD quickly.

Doesn't have to be permanent if just the spectrum tape, or only cluttered when the modes on. No worse then landing.

What's your hurry? It's not like you've got an end-game to get to.

Same hurry as always. Limited time to play and there is no reason to have to stop if I could still fly while working the FSS. As it is currently I understand the need to dethrottle.


It took me a bit of effort to understand what were talking about here, and I don't disagree, though how much longer range?

Sorry, hard to figure out how to convey. In my view they should always point to the nearest signal (or group) that matches in the top level zoom. The zoomed in levels are fine as is.

Geo sites ARE given on the system map already - kind of. Let's look at System A.
System A has 6 stellar bodies, 2 High Metal Worlds with Neon Atmospheres, 3 Rocky Worlds, two with Geological POIs (Iron Magma and Silicate Geysers), and a Gas Giant with Ammonia Based Life.

If you look on the system map, you can see which worlds are landable - which means which ones could have POI's. If you switch to the details tab and highlight each body, you can then see which have Volcanic data - Iron Magma or Silicate Geysers in the details, which means you CAN see which have Geological POI's.
Biological though... this could use some kind of system map indicator.

But I'll push even further here - I'd love to see these POI's shown on the planetary map as well.

I understand all that, but currently the system is silly. The FSS tells me exactly how many sites are on a planet that has no mapping coordinates yet, even on the back side, then I go launch probes to make the planet blue and show where all the sites are? That's backwards. Makes sense the FSS can tell there are some volcanoes or geysers/vents, or signs of biological activity but not exactly how many which implies you already know "where". Then it would naturally make sense to use probes to locate all the sites and fix positions for them. I'd even be happy if there were initial indications of biological but probes then showed that false every once in a while.

Yes, I know that Bio/Geo POI are only on landable planets and Geo are easily inferred by any volcanic activity. Bio however are only seen in the FSS info in the upper left and are what I'm far more interested in locating if present. An icon or a color for the landable worlds with geo/bio/both would not be much to ask, OR just the note in the information panel in the map that biological signals were found would be okay too.
 
I understand all that, but currently the system is silly. The FSS tells me exactly how many sites are on a planet that has no mapping coordinates yet, even on the back side, then I go launch probes to make the planet blue and show where all the sites are? That's backwards. Makes sense the FSS can tell there are some volcanoes or geysers/vents, or signs of biological activity but not exactly how many which implies you already know "where". Then it would naturally make sense to use probes to locate all the sites and fix positions for them. I'd even be happy if there were initial indications of biological but probes then showed that false every once in a while.

Ehhh... I half get what you're getting at, but... let's look at this a little differently:

Got a cell phone? Make a call. That call sends a signal out in all directions. That signal gets picked up by the closest tower. That tower relays that signal to a satellite, which then directs that signal to somewhere on the ground, to reach your target. So here's what I can tell: at some time, your cell phone pinged a signal off a tower in this city, located at this address. I know what city you're in, and can locate you within a radius of let's say 10 miles. Make another call, this time it pings off a different tower. Now I can say you're somewhere within 6 miles of the first tower, and 6 miles of the second tower, as I can eliminate portions of the radius of both towers where they can't overlap.
Make a 3rd call, this one pings off yet another tower. I can then eliminate more of the arcs of towers 1 and 2, based on the location of tower 3, and now I can pinpoint you by triangulation to within a single city block. Pretty straightforward, if not over-simplified real-world stuff. Calls 1 and 2 are your Discovery Scanner and FSS scan - I know there's a planet. I know that planet has a number of biological or geological signals on it. The DSS scan, which reveals their locations on the planet is your 3rd call, which triangulates the location of these signals.

Not quite as silly sounding now, but actually based on something that makes sense*.

Or, on the more sci-fi end, let's watch Star Trek.

"Captain, sensors have picked up a signal on that planet over there."
"What kind of signal? Where is it?"
"It's artificial, it may be a leaky reactor of a crashed ship, or a badly designed generator powering what should be an otherwise primitive society. It's somewhere on the Southern continent."
"Let's move in for a closer look, and load a class-3 probe. Launch the probe when we're within range."

So they know there's a planet out there (Discovery Scanner), they've picked up an artificial signal of some kind (FSS) and are moving in to take a closer look at what this is - which will also tell them where it is (DSS).

Again, not so silly.

Yes, I know that Bio/Geo POI are only on landable planets and Geo are easily inferred by any volcanic activity. Bio however are only seen in the FSS info in the upper left and are what I'm far more interested in locating if present. An icon or a color for the landable worlds with geo/bio/both would not be much to ask, OR just the note in the information panel in the map that biological signals were found would be okay too.

Trust me, I'm interested in finding Biological POI's myself - I haven't seen one in several hundred jumps over the past month or two, and I would also love some manner of indicator of their existence beyond having to memorize a planet name that looks like someone spilled the Scrabble letters. I wouldn't mind if this were mentioned on the planet's description in the system map, or if the landable ( )'s around the planet were turned green or anything that indicates This Scanned Planet has Biological POI's.
 
Again, not so silly.

Its called shortened sequences, phone adverts use it alot. In startrek you dont have to watch the guy in first person operate the device, usually the camera pans to somebody else who says their bit and then magically the scanning is done an there it is.

Anyway i thought it had been established that startrek is 1000 years before ED is set.
 
Its called shortened sequences, phone adverts use it alot. In startrek you dont have to watch the guy in first person operate the device, usually the camera pans to somebody else who says their bit and then magically the scanning is done an there it is.

Anyway i thought it had been established that startrek is 1000 years before ED is set.

The timeframe doesn't make any difference. And yes, you're right - we don't USUALLY watch the scan in progress, because that doesn't make for good television. Just like we don't usually watch the weeks of flying along at light speed it takes to get from Bajor to Risa, because that would also be boring television.

But Elite isn't Television, it's a game. But it's not your usual sort of game either - it's a game that plays like a simulation, but not entirely like a simulation either. If I want to fly from the furthest reaches of Tenebrae to the busiest hub in Colonia, I'm making 1,000+ jumps to get there. I'm watching that week of flying along at light speed, because that's the simulation side of the game. Sure, it would be "great gameplay" for me to select my final destination, knowing nothing is likely to happen during the course of that trip, and click "Just get me there now." and "fast travel" all that way.

People have been crying for this kind of zero-attention-span-instant-gratification game play forever. They're still not getting it either. Oh, boo hoo, I only get to play 20 minute a night every 18 nights because... well, they never really say why they have so little time to play, only that they have so little time to play. There's no reason to change the nature of the game for them.

But if you really want to talk about time frames...

In Star Trek, flying too close to a black hole means being caught in the gravity well. Fly too close to a star and your ship might be destroyed by a CME or solar flare. Make a fast, tight turn around a star, and slingshot yourself off at Warp 10. On, and the best part? A space ship flies like a space ship. In Elite, space ships fly like WW I fighter aircraft, and WW I was a lot further in the past than the United Federation of Planets, so there is that. Transporters. Replicators, Tricorders - what do we have? Our butts bolted to a chair and Telepresence.
 
For the first time I encountered drifting and the screen turning when moving to another body in fss.
I'd realy like to see that fixed.
 
You play in VR?

nope not VR. If I do it for a while I get used to it eventually, but if I leave off the game for a couple of weeks and go back to it the initial headache/queasiness returns. Luckily only a few games effect me that way, Forza 3 did it as well for some reason, yet other racers did not.
 
People have been crying for this kind of zero-attention-span-instant-gratification game play forever. They're still not getting it either. Oh, boo hoo, I only get to play 20 minute a night every 18 nights because... well, they never really say why they have so little time to play, only that they have so little time to play. There's no reason to change the nature of the game for them.

You're quite snarky. I'm not requesting zero effort. I suggested that FSS work while in motion rather than be a separate video game screen to be used only while idle. I have no idea how that translates to boo-hooing.
 
You're quite snarky. I'm not requesting zero effort. I suggested that FSS work while in motion rather than be a separate video game screen to be used only while idle. I have no idea how that translates to boo-hooing.

I didn't say YOU did. But there are plenty of people who have - care to play "Count the Intra-System Jump" threads for examples?

The FSS does work while in motion, it just happens to work in very slow motion, as zero-throttle in super cruise is still moving, just barely. I'm not opposed to changes. The sub-screened method, while functional, is, eh... in and of itself. I can think of a few ways this could have been done differently that doesn't change what is being done so much as how it is presented. If I have time, I'll do a little photoshop tinkering to make my concepts easier to grasp.
 
I'd also suggest, as an overlap with the threads on the issues with starlight tinting the skybox - could we get that silly lighting filter disabled when we enter the FSS at the very least? It's very silly how the appearance of a planet as viewed through your telescope is tinted by which star within the system you happen to have your ship parked next to at the time you look at it. A planet can be hundreds of thousands of ls away sitting around a red dwarf, but the blue star I'm sitting next to tints it a bright purple in the FSS.
 
With regard to the Geological POI scan times...

This is something I had drafted to post in here anyway, but yesterday's announcement makes it a bit more pertinent and presents far more of an opportunity than previously.


Although various of us have already posted a suggested solution already, would there be any objections to me posting another thread about it?

The main things I'd be aiming to get out of the thread is:

a. confirmation that the suggested solution has been heard and passed on appropriately internally

b. confirmation that is is either being considered or has been confirmed as non-valid (essentially so that we can stop repeating the same suggestion).

Although various of us have put forward a solution for the Geological POI scan time issue, there's not been any response that I'm aware of. However, I did see something in Reddit, where someone had a message from support which confirmed the nature of the issue to be as suspected (or at least as I had suspected, and posted.)

With the focus now on bug fixing, this seems like a great opportunity to try and get this fixed.

To do so the approach is to try and make it as easy as possible for FD to put in place the solution which we've already proposed. To enable this:

  • I've put together a general summary of the situation and a case for the solution
  • I'd like to ask people on the thread to have a read through, and give their input (see below)
  • I'll then post a final version to Will and Co, and Adam B-W on DD

That post will highlight the issue, propose the solution, present the case and ask for acknowledgement that it's been seen and passed on, and also ask for confirmation whether the solution is indeed viable or whether something has been missed in the assumptions which means it's non-viable and we can stop proposing it.


In terms of input, what would be useful in particular is taking a look at the assumptions, dis-benefits, rollout issues and rollout risks, and seeing if there's anything else which can be identified which would need to be considered.

@marx @Max Factor @Dutchman141 @picommander @Ozric I know you've all got an interest in this, so am tagging you all in specifically. Points from anyone else would be welcome too.

Thanks in advance for reading through and any input. (And apologies to the OP for the mild hi-jacking of this thread, but the thread's gone quiet anyway, and it's true to the topic of the thread, so hopefully it's not a problem.)



Context

Some of us have helped with bug/issue resolution in the past, for example personally, helping identify a potential source of the Trident SLF overheat issue.

Having looked at the Geological POI scan times issue quite a bit, it seems fairly evident what the cause is is.

Further, on reddit, someone shared a response they'd had from support indicating that the issue was being looked at and confirming at least where the cause is was as suspected.


The nature of the matter

The problem isn't a bug, it's inherent in the current design of the process - it's a bottleneck in the current process flow.

Changing the actual part of the process which results in the bottleneck is likely to be a major endeavour with knock on consequences.

So the solution is to change the process flow so that the bottleneck doesn't occur.


The bottleneck

Zooming in on a body invokes the planet generation system. The generation of Geological POIs requires the planet generation system to have progressed to a certain point, which takes a fair amount of time (and is GPU performance dependent).


Why fixing the bottleneck itself isn't an option

Because geological POIs are generated as part of the planet generation, which was revised in 3.0, decoupling it is probably non-viable, and if it was viable would likely change the Geological POIs on every planet across the entire game.


The partial workaround which anyone can currently use

Whether a body has vulcanism is confirmed almost instantly. Only bodies with vulcanism have geological POIs. A few bodies with vulcanism don't have geological POIs but these are very rare (estimate - 1 in 1,000). Therefore if a body has vulcanism it can be treated as having geological POIs, flown to, and the DSS used to reveal the POIs.


The core of the issue

The issue is not so much with the Geological POIs themselves, as if someone is specifically interested in them, the workaround tackles that fine.

The issue is that the scan time for Geological POIs prevents all other types of POI being shown until it's complete.

There are huge numbers of bodies with Geological POIs, and after a few, they're unlikely to each warrant travelling to and DSS scanning.

The result is that there is a massively decreased possibility of non-geological POIs being found on/around planets with vulcanism compared to planets without vulcanism. Also it means anyone looking for the non-Geological POIs faces a massively increased time when bodies with vulcanism are involved compared to then they aren't.


The proposed solution

Part A

The proposed solution is to:

1. have the FSS return only the presence of POIs, not the number

2. de-couple the generation of the geological POIs from the FSS

3. use whether a planet has vulcanism or not as the single determinant of whether geological POIs are present.

Specifically, this change (in pseudo-code):

As-Is:

On FSS_Zoom (call Planet_Generation_System:
(​
Return visuals;​
On Geological_Site_Location_Generation complete, Return number_of_Geological-POIs;​
)​
Determine numbers of other POIs​
)​
To-Be:

On FSS_Zoom (if planet.has_vulcanism set Geological_Signals_Detected = yes
call Planet_Generation_System:​
(​
Return visuals;​
)​
Determine presence of other POIs​
)​

Part B (Lower priority)

Add the results of whether POIs have been detected by the FSS to the detailed body information on the System Map.


Assumptions

1. That other POI types can be treated in the same way as the Geological ones, and their presence generated/determined without needing the planet generation system to get to the point needed to determine the number of Geological sites.



Solution development time, costs and resource needs

<Section added for completeness, can't be completed external to FD. Would estimate these are all low in the scale of things though.>


Dis-benefits of solution


NumberDescriptionLikely ImpactMitigationLikely impact with mitigationEstimated cost of mitigation
1A very small number of bodies which will be reported as having Geological signals will if DSS probed, not return any POIs. When encountered this may result in some annoyance, bug reports and complaints.Very low.Pre-emptive comms to playerbase to explain why this has may result, focussing on the much larger benefit provided by having this situaiton.Very very low.Very low*.


*Just a personal guess based purely on other experience.


Solution rollout issues

NumberTypeDescriptionMitigation/ActionEstimated Cost
1ChangeFor players there will be a change from the FSS showing numbers of POIs to just whether signals have been detected. Where players are unaware why this has been done, this will result in some confusion, and may result in some resistance and/or complaints.Comms to playerbase explaining why the change is being made and the benefits that players will get from it. (Including info related to mitigation of Dis-benefit 1)Very low.


Solution rollout risks

(Note, 1&2 are just what I would anticipate to be standard known risks for any update FD does. They're there for completeness. Any risks specific to this particular solution will be added.)

NumberDescriptionProbabilityImpactMitigation optionsMitigation Costs
1Solution doesn't work when pushed to live clientsShould be low (in principle)MediumTBCTBC
2Packaging and deployment results in issues with unrelated areasMediumHighly dependent on effected area(s). Could be very low. Could be very high.TBCTBC
 
I'll repeat my suggestion made numerous times before:-

Do not force CMDRs to sit still while using the FSS, instead allow them to supercruise or even better use the Supercruise Assistant. If ship movement proves an issue while in the FSS view, then consider simply locking the view within the FSS to the position the ship was at when entering it (& its scan was taken).
 
@Thatchinho : Really, all I could say to that is that in my opinion, the post is too long :D But yeah, it's a simple solution to a simple but serious problem.
Also, many - but not all - types of biological POIs require volcanism on a planet too. However, as best as I know, this depends on the volcanism info of planets, NOT the generation of volcanic POIs. As such, they could be generated separately.
As for other types of POIs (Guardian, Thargoid, Human), they don't seem to exist anywhere other than a few plot areas, so there's no issue there.
 
@Thatchinho : Really, all I could say to that is that in my opinion, the post is too long :D But yeah, it's a simple solution to a simple but serious problem.
Also, many - but not all - types of biological POIs require volcanism on a planet too. However, as best as I know, this depends on the volcanism info of planets, NOT the generation of volcanic POIs. As such, they could be generated separately.
As for other types of POIs (Guardian, Thargoid, Human), they don't seem to exist anywhere other than a few plot areas, so there's no issue there.
Thanks for the thoughts! And yeah, I understand on the post length! :D The simple version of it seems to have got nowhere, hence the extended version, but I’ll probably adjust it for the actual post. Summary version in the post and a link to a fuller version in a google doc or some similar type of approach.

On the other types of POI, yeah, my observations were also that bio presence is based on the planet info and wouldn’t need anything beyond to say they’ll be there. Some biological locations changed with 3.0, and getting numbers might be dependent on running the Planet Gen system through to a certain point similarly to Geo POIs, but if that’s the case then it would seem having the FSS just report the presence rather than numbers would solve that issue as well. 👍
 

Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
Yeah that's a really good post @Thatchinho I like the idea of the a short version, and then maybe just put the long version in spoiler tags. I think just showing whether there are signal there is a (hopefully) simple and elegant solution. Good work (y)
 
Yeah that's a really good post @Thatchinho I like the idea of the a short version, and then maybe just put the long version in spoiler tags. I think just showing whether there are signal there is a (hopefully) simple and elegant solution. Good work (y)
Thanks! I can’t take all the credit though. - although when I first made the suggestion ages back it was done so independently, I know others have also made the same suggestion independently as well!
 
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