Sick of not knowing!!

[Lateralus]

That is about as one-sided as you can get. Suggestions to benefit PvP only, to the detrriment of other play styles, abound and are 'shouted down' (your words, but apt) by those who recognise the slant. Suggestion which appear to benefit all playstyles are less likely to be buried under a mountain of discontent (but if one group feels it would 'disadvantage' them...)

How is it to the detriment to anyone outside PvP? Please explain...

The PvP community already 'shouted down' an experimental effect that would have benefited those who don't indulge in their 'sport'.... So I believe your comment to be only slightly biased

What suggestion was that? Something game-breaking no doubt..

Is it time for all of the usual denigrations to start yet?

I don't know, is it?

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

I recently lost a duel that was fairly close, against someone with an identical loadout to one that I frequently fly (so I know how long it takes to kill certain shield configs etc., I focus on the technical in that way). It's possible that he won fair and square, I'm certainly not invincible, but my instincts are pretty good and I think he might have been using premium railgun ammo. I don't mind that I lost, I'm not a bad loser, in fact, it keeps me improving.

The problem is I just don't know... I can't believe it has been so long since this was introduced and still we don't have a way of knowing if someone is using a 30% (THIRTY PER CENT!!!) advantage.

Naturally I'm expecting some to say 'hurr, durr, you can load premium ammo too', but I wouldn't, for two reasons; 1) I don't want to have an advantage over someone who isn't using premium, and 2) If premium becomes the norm for pvp, it becomes EVEN MORE inaccessible to players who don't have the time to constantly grind materials. With the power creep and grind as well as sheer practice level required to be decent at pvp in this game, I feel this is more than a step too far.

This is compounded by the fact that we now have raw material supersites a little way out of the bubble, giving those with time to farm, a huge advantage and basically endless premium refills.

Personally I would prefer that premium ammo is only effective against NPCs and gives no bonus against players, but I would settle for at minimum, a notification that I am being hit with premium so that I can decide if I want to stand and fight at this HORRENDOUS disadvantage.

Anyone else had enough of this? Maybe it's time to be a bit more vocal about it...

I'm replying to Aashenfox post 'quoted' not anyone else 's post that I haven't read! so if it conflicts with or is similar to or has been covered by any other post... Sorry in advance.

Augmentation drugs are forbidden in today's sports and it is policed heavily, I can see why and it's an unfair advantage, but in a PvP gaming situation where anything that wins is acceptable whether it'shooting, ramming, mining an area, if it's 'game' lawful then you should accept and expect that, I understand your frustration of not knowing if you were beaten on equal terms or whether you fell foul of better ammo but you chose not to use 'poisoned arrows' and making a stand isn't going to change anything... or shouldn't in my books, it simply makes you feel better about beating someone else with standard issue kit, if there were rules against it's use in PvP then OK... but there aren't, and I don't feel that there should be an exception, if you go down that road you might as well stretch it to no enhanced (engineered) ships in PvP at all, or perhaps... you cannot shoot an unarmed ship, this would allow folks not interested in combat a way to play in open without being bothered by Murder Hobo's and or Player pirates alike.
So for me that would be a big ol' no,
after all you don't swap stats at the traffic lights to see if a race would be fair and he didn't have a bigger engine or Nos

 

[Rat Catcher]

How is it to the detriment to anyone outside PvP? Please explain... Remove Premiun Ammo - suggested here... Benefits PvP but not PvE (I use premium ammo regularly) or did you miss that already?



What suggestion was that? Something game-breaking no doubt.. The 'outrage' by the PvP 'community' over the changes to drag earlier this year - excellent for PvE players, but would have 'broke' the PvP META as everyone would have one - gosh, that sounds like Premium ammo to me!



I don't know, is it?

We shall all have to wait and see

 

[CmdMarty]

Keep the premium but have it so it can be bought at stations for high credits and have the premium ammo wear weapons out. Its about balance something this game has a hard time with for some reason.

 

[Lateralus]

Remove Premiun Ammo - suggested here... Benefits PvP but not PvE (I use premium ammo regularly) or did you miss that already?

He said he would settle for an effect notification icon (like experimental effect icons), which I believe is the correct way to deal with the issue. Is this not acceptable?

The 'outrage' by the PvP 'community' over the changes to drag earlier this year - excellent for PvE players, but would have 'broke' the PvP META as everyone would have one - gosh, that sounds like Premium ammo to me!

Why do you think that PvE players would benefit from the OP drag effect at the expense of PvPers? They would just use them on PvE'ers to stop them escaping. It would have also turned all PvP battles into a farce too, rewarding a low-skill meta against higher skill players.

 

[Deleted member 192138]

Premium synth reloads are dumb. The only time they have much use in PvE is for Hydra because it's a pointless damage sponge with difficulty stacked by more hitpoints and more DPS but not actually doing anything to change the mechanics or improve the AI (ie it's a bad way to stack difficulty, because it becomes a lengthy pointless grind to deal with). Otherwise just learn to use your weapons and balance your ships for the task. Absolutely bizarre that people gulp up this material sink which is just another thing to engage in pointless grind to collect for.

Obviously premium reloads are also dumb in PvP. People complaining about the PvP community vocally opposing the drag munitions changes seem to not realise that:
1) If the changes had remained in the game, it would make even prepared CMDRs a hell of a lot easier to gank.
2) NPCs ignore or are barely effected by most of these status effects at the best of times, so they wouldn't really make much difference in PvE beyond what you already get from drag munitions.
3) When you break PvP gameplay so that arranged/organised or even organic symmetrical PvP doesn't work any more that's when the PvP community as a whole shifts towards ganking because it's the most consistent combat gameplay.

As with so many other design choices, their inclusion in the game in the first place was an awful decision and an affront to game balance.

 

[Rat Catcher]

He said he would settle for an effect notification icon (like experimental effect icons), which I believe is the correct way to deal with the issue. Is this not acceptable?
Read my previous posts - I agreed with Fox on notification as a very good idea


Why do you think that PvE players would benefit from the OP drag effect at the expense of PvPers? Read what I wrote? I was able to try the now 'nerfed' drag on the only day it was in game - it benefitted me greatly in a NPC encounter when I was in a mediocre trade ship with Pack hounds with Drag...


They would just use them on PvE'ers to stop them escaping. Of course they would...

It would have also turned all PvP battles into a farce too, rewarding a low-skill meta against higher skill players. So, because it affected PvP 'skill' it had to be removed by the game for everyone? That is a fine 'balanced' move...

There you go

 

[jasonbarron]

Premium synth reloads are dumb. The only time they have much use in PvE is for Hydra because it's a pointless damage sponge with difficulty stacked by more hitpoints and more DPS but not actually doing anything to change the mechanics or improve the AI (ie it's a bad way to stack difficulty, because it becomes a lengthy pointless grind to deal with). Otherwise just learn to use your weapons and balance your ships for the task. Absolutely bizarre that people gulp up this material sink which is just another thing to engage in pointless grind to collect for.

Obviously premium reloads are also dumb in PvP. People complaining about the PvP community vocally opposing the drag munitions changes seem to not realise that:
1) If the changes had remained in the game, it would make even prepared CMDRs a hell of a lot easier to gank.
2) NPCs ignore or are barely effected by most of these status effects at the best of times, so they wouldn't really make much difference in PvE beyond what you already get from drag munitions.
3) When you break PvP gameplay so that arranged/organised or even organic symmetrical PvP doesn't work any more that's when the PvP community as a whole shifts towards ganking because it's the most consistent combat gameplay.

As with so many other design choices, their inclusion in the game in the first place was an awful decision and an affront to game balance.

If only the dev's actually played their own game...

There. I said it.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Premium synth reloads are dumb. ....
As with so many other design choices, their inclusion in the game in the first place was an awful decision and an affront to game balance.

There is no game balance - the inclusion of any 'benefit' is for the whole of the player base, even if they hate the idea

 

[Rat Catcher]

If only the dev's actually played their own game...

There. I said it.

But you said it right... The Dev's play their 'own' game... it may not be the game 'we' play (knowing that you and I play marginally different ways ) ... but I'm sure, like you and I, they play their 'own way'!

(Sorry, I couldn't resist it! I'll slap my own wrists and ankles )

 

[IndigoWyrd]

My source would be playing Elite Dangerous.

Ok, so just opinion - that's OK. We've all got our own world-views. They needed align with anyone else's, so long as we realize others may not see things the same way we do.

 

[jasonbarron]

But you said it right... The Dev's play their 'own' game... it may not be the game 'we' play (knowing that you and I play marginally different ways ) ... but I'm sure, like you and I, they play their 'own way'!

(Sorry, I couldn't resist it! I'll slap my own wrists and ankles )

In all seriousness, the dev's display about the same amount of hands on experience as you would expect from a new player with maybe 10 hours under their belt and zero knowledge whatsoever of the concepts being discussed here. Not trying to be mean, that's just the truth as I see it.

 

[Morbad]

there is literally no reason to be against the idea unless you're using premium to your advantage in PvP.

That's not my reason.

I don't synthesize often and this is actually the only time I have ever had my CMDR synthesize higher ammo grades outside of a friendly test scenario where all participants knew exactly what was going on beforehand:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46rjR81lf5Y


My aversion to a premium ammo specific warning is wholly based on my desire for mechanisms to make as much sense, in an in-game/in-character context, as practical. I'd be fine with exact damage being listed, but I've yet to hear of a rational mechanism by which extra damage from premium ammo could be distinguished from other damage augments, in and of themselves.

Yes, I realize that there are countless other lapses in logic that are well-established aspects of the game. I do not consider this a good excuse to add more and would like to see most of the others replaced with more internally consistent mechanisms.

NPC's do not use premium so you would never even see a notification or have an audio warning if you don't fight other players.

Ideally, NPC's should play by the same rules as CMDRs and the fact that they currently do not is not a good reason to further emphasize any artificial PvP/PvE dichotomy, IMO.

The PvP community already 'shouted down' an experimental effect that would have benefited those who don't indulge in their 'sport'....

Experimental effects work the same way against NPCs as they do against CMDRs. If it was overtly unbalanced in PvP, it was overtly unbalanced in PvE.

He said he would settle for an effect notification icon (like experimental effect icons), which I believe is the correct way to deal with the issue. Is this not acceptable?

It's not ideal.

Standard and premium ammo do not apply any status effect to the target, they only amplify damage. A status effect would be incongrous because it's lacking in primary mods like OC or SRB, and secondaries like oversized. Even effects that change damage type do not apply status effects. A status effect is something beyond basic damage.

As I mentioned earlier, listing damage would be the most straight forward solution to this perceived problem, as the ship is obviously already tracking such damage...it's just not displayed with sufficient granularity nor logged.

Other options would also, IMO, be preferably to a status effect...even changing the color of the tracer to something unique would make more sense.

the inclusion of any 'benefit' is for the whole of the player base, even if they hate the idea

Drag munitions that prevented boosting did not benefit my play, nor did Engineering, nor did synthesis...and this applies irrespective of direct interaction with other CMDRs.

 

[Deleted member 192138]

There is no game balance - the inclusion of any 'benefit' is for the whole of the player base, even if they hate the idea

If you need to use premium synth to meet a PvE challenge either:
A) You would benefit more by building your ship better and/or learning to counter the NPC better.
OR
B) The Devs have contempt for your time by creating difficulty stacking which is countered by grinding to purely increase your damage output and not develop any challenging or engaging gameplay mechanics or skill based function.

There is no way that the player base benefits by premium synth - it is a detrimental addition whatever way you cut it.

 

[Rat Catcher]

In all seriousness, the dev's display about the same amount of hands on experience as you would expect from a new player with maybe 10 hours under their belt and zero knowledge whatsoever of the concepts being discussed here. Not trying to be mean, that's just the truth as I see it.

I don't think the Dev's see PvP as a key area of the game - Braben's early comment (cited so many times...) gave that away quite well. The PvP community do very well given the marginal support for the playstyle from the game itself, and have built their own community and 'rules' pretty well.
(I'm not being mean either - as I know you were not)

I have no issue with PvP'ers as a whole, we all play 'our' game, I only make a noise if folk suggest something that affects everyone to forward their own agenda...

 

[andrewg_oz]

So ... the OP posted after losing to a possibly slightly better-outfit opponent than them. I wonder if they have ever posted after beating an opponent, wondering if perhaps they won because the other guy had a worse-specced ship? Somehow, I don't think so.

It's completely impractical to compare ships. Are you going to perform a detailed analysis while taking fire? Lining up which weapons the other guy has, what sort of engineering they have, what level of engineering, what sort of special effects they have, if they have special ammo or not? Nobody is going to do that.

As for balance ... that went out the window once a choice of ships were added to the game. Then a choice of different weapons was added. Then the choices of engineering. Then the choices of ammo synth. How do you balance Sidewinders versus FDLs? Multis versus rails?

You might be able to achieve a balance (or at least get a bit closer) in a more controlled environment like CQC, but in an open sandbox-type environment? Forget it.

Having said all that, I have read a suggestion made for ammo synth, and that is instead of it being a bonus, it's a nerf. That is instead of Basic, Standard and Premium being +0%, +15%, +30%, they are -30%, -15%, and 0%. In other words, premium ammo synth is exactly the same as shop-bought, except of course you don't need to bail out to go shopping to refill your gun. Lesser synths get you less effective ammo.

While I quite like my +30% for PvE (I don't do PvP), that's a change I would have no complaints about.

 

[Rat Catcher]

If you need to use premium synth to meet a PvE challenge either:
A) You would benefit more by building your ship better and/or learning to counter the NPC better.
OR
B) The Devs have contempt for your time by creating difficulty stacking which is countered by grinding to purely increase your damage output and not develop any challenging or engaging gameplay mechanics or skill based function.

There is no way that the player base benefits by premium synth - it is a detrimental addition whatever way you cut it.

Or I could just play and enjoy myself... Which I do, thank you, and I'll use any mechanism provided in the game which benefits me...

If I feel I need to use Premium Ammo it is becase I do... so I do - but thank you for your kind advice.

The Devs do not have contempt for my time - I choose to spend my time in the game, and oddly enough, grind doesn't come into it, I am starting to believe I must be at fault somewhere...

What is 'skill based function'?

 

[IndigoWyrd]

That's not my reason.

I don't synthesize often [...]

I also look at it like this - If I were to go player-hunting, especially hunting players with high-value bounties... I would do so in the same manner I would go hunting actual people with high-value dead-or-alive bounties - with as much firepower and every tactical advantage available to me, with no word or warning. You want El Chapo, or at least enough of him to identify? No problem. I'll take 25 rounds of .50 BMG in depleted uranium rounds, a TIC, a few drones, a couple belts of 7.62x54R armor-piercing munitions, and I'll bring back something you can identify - and no, I wouldn't warn my mark I was packing the most potent firepower available.

Exactly the same here - If I were to hunt someone down, you best believe I'd be running G5 upgraded modules, Premium Ammo, and using every advantage I could get to ensure when I do open fire it's over before you realize you're hit - and not because I'm anxious to see your "I was one-shotted to death" salt post, but because I don't believe in overkill, and because I don't want you to have a chance to return fire. I want to get in, get done, get out and get paid as quickly as possible.

On the other hand, if I were to engage in competitive formatted combat play... first of all, there's already CQC for that. It's designed for that sort of play, it usually fun for around 3-4 matches - if there's anyone there to play and they're not running "trainers". I have done some "stock ship" matches for fun and to waste a few credits - stock sidewinders, stock eagles, even stock hauler-brawls (ok, those actually were more fun than anticipated, despite taking three times longer than necessary), but these were never the sort of "serious" PvP play that a number of PvP players thrive on - it was just some goofing about for fun. In these cases, the format is agreed upon in advance, and we stick to that. Of course, we all know each other, so we can be sure none of us are going to violate that agreement.

In general Open play, there are No Guarantees™.

 

[Morbad]

Are you going to perform a detailed analysis while taking fire?

Analyzing what one did right and wrong after the fact is often of great help in improving one's future performance.

Knowing as much as possible about the opposition is always going to be useful context.

I also look at it like this - If I were to go player-hunting, especially hunting players with high-value bounties... I would do so in the same manner I would go hunting actual people with high-value dead-or-alive bounties - with as much firepower and every tactical advantage available to me, with no word or warning.

Another one of those things that should be a given, but isn't because the game has no consequences to incentivize it.

I don't synthesize often because it's not worth the bother. It rarely changes the outcome and the game goes out of it's way to make the outcome as meaningless for my CMDR as possible. I try to play a character that at least believes death is possible, that his magical remlok suit and escape capsule may not always be there to save him from an acute bout of terminal stupidity or laziness...but it requires a lot of suspension of disbelief when the rest of the game just trivializes doing asinine things that get one's self blown up.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Yes, because you neither use Engineering nor PvP. What a display of ignorance....

And this motto redeems everything? What a stupid argument to make, because you can use it to "excuse" every design aspect of a game.

To the "this-is-fine-crowd": Remember when EA and DICE tried to add huge damage buffs to Battlefront 2 (the new one), but behind a grind/ paywall? Remember how this played out?

I don't PvP BECAUSE of engineering. Which IS gameplay behind a huge grindwall. Just like OP doesn't want to do PvP with premium ammo.

And besides that: "Ignorance is bliss."