Helping new players: scaled, personal NPC security detail at lower ranks in Open (mostly harmless > competent)

After a couple of interesting discussions I came up with this idea to help new players fresh out of the starter area:

In short, low ranks on attack by other players (i.e. shots landed, interdicted) spawn security instantly when they drop to realspace 1:

This idea kicks in as new players leave the area they start in (as they increase rank from Harmless to mostly harmless). The help is this:

Mostly Harmless: large ATR wing (4 ships initially) close proximity to player with normal ATR spawns after

Novice: medium ATR wing (2 ships) medium proximity spawn with normal ATR spawns after

Competent: large security wing (5 ships, non ATR) normal spawn distance

Expert > no additional help

This idea is meant as a breathing space for new players in Open to learn how to escape by giving them some backup. Its not perfect in the slightest (in that nothing can prevent destruction by a wing of ships) but its the most potent NPC help you can give in a tailored way for isolated incidents. Hopefully I've closed a lot of abusable loopholes below.

Notes:

1: although its slightly unrealistic, instant spawns happen already in game with second and subsequent waves of ATR the very second a shot lands on a victim. This includes interdiction- current ATR behaviour spawns instant ATR ships as you drop. In addition, ATR spawn with guns deployed and the aggressor already targetted (i.e. they can fire as soon as they appear).

2: increase in exploration or trade ranks counts the same as combat ranks (so going above dealer or surveyor ends your security help). Why:

You could keep it as an aid for non combat pilots who have very low ranks and are afraid of 'ganks'. However IMO people should spend this time learning escape tactics as a basic core skill while they have this security help. This idea is not perfect, but its the only realistic (and not stupidly overbearing) way to aid new people but not used by the lazy as a crutch. Your view may vary.

3: this help is nullified if you pledge to a power.

4: for consistency the ATR and sec wings are independent of any faction (like ATR now). The Pilots Federation supply this help as a secondary stage after 'graduating'.

5: help will not come if you are wanted.

6: This is intended to help new players faced with attackers in open- however it might be that NPC attackers (i.e. random pirates) spawn normal security (say two Viper Mk 3s) to help while the ranks are low to give help. Mission NPCs would not trigger this help (since the player actively chose to take them on).
 
2: increase in exploration or trade ranks counts the same as combat ranks (so going above dealer or surveyor ends your security help). Why:
In principle yes, but in practice the exploration and trade rank curves would need significantly rebalancing to be back in line with the combat one. Trailblazer is only about 4 million credits - mapping of a couple of terraformables, or a very short exploration trip. Merchant is 3.7 million credits trade profit - one asteroid's worth of core gems, even if sold in non-optimal states, a couple of basic haulage missions, or a bunch of easy courier runs.

Compared with the few hundred NPC kills required to get to Expert (if not hunting scouts...), it's a very different scale of activity, so even someone doing a balanced mix of combat, trade and exploration would probably get Trailblazer and Merchant before Mostly Harmless.
 
In principle yes, but in practice the exploration and trade rank curves would need significantly rebalancing to be back in line with the combat one. Trailblazer is only about 4 million credits - mapping of a couple of terraformables, or a very short exploration trip. Merchant is 3.7 million credits trade profit - one asteroid's worth of core gems, even if sold in non-optimal states, a couple of basic haulage missions, or a bunch of easy courier runs.

Compared with the few hundred NPC kills required to get to Expert (if not hunting scouts...), it's a very different scale of activity, so even someone doing a balanced mix of combat, trade and exploration would probably get Trailblazer and Merchant before Mostly Harmless.

The other way perhaps would be explorer or trade ranks are higher (say two or three higher) rather than being across the board.
 
They are not competant enough to give us npc crew or wings so this is a pipe dream . Would love this and the things i mention but it's FD ...
 
They are not competant enough to give us npc crew or wings so this is a pipe dream . Would love this and the things i mention but it's FD ...

Not really- this idea uses ATR spawn mechanics that already exist. But it could be used for NPC wingmen (just it would be unrealistic as they are instanced with you rather than take off / fly with you etc).
 
Wouldn't it make more sense just to have working security and have a areas of the galaxy that are generally high security because they are established or areas of importance?

Yes and no. To be any threat to a G5 FdL player you'd need security to be instant ATR level all the time- plus you'd have to get people to actually take responsibility for themselves and avoid some places completely. It would also lull people into relying on security and not actually learning how to escape.

This at least provides some way to mitigate the problem universally when you are learning to give you a bit of a break from low level attacks.
 
Yes and no. To be any threat to a G5 FdL player you'd need security to be instant ATR level all the time- plus you'd have to get people to actually take responsibility for themselves and avoid some places completely. It would also lull people into relying on security and not actually learning how to escape.

This at least provides some way to mitigate the problem universally when you are learning to give you a bit of a break from low level attacks.

Or alternatively they could just make ATR active rather than reactive in high-sec systems. Enter a high-security system with a bounty and face a constant stream of interdictions from system security; enter a system with notoriety and be proactively engaged by ATR until you leave.
 
Or alternatively they could just make ATR active rather than reactive in high-sec systems. Enter a high-security system with a bounty and face a constant stream of interdictions from system security; enter a system with notoriety and be proactively engaged by ATR until you leave.

The thing then is it is too punitive, and that people who play unlawfully (but not kill new people) are pretty much screwed as ATR then is overused to prevent everything. ATR should only really be employed as a last resort, mainly as its (IMO) game breaking and a short cut through engineered shields. I do agree that response times need to be much more snappy though, I had a few other ideas based on where the interdiction takes place (so close to a station is almost instant, far in deep space its slow).

"Enter a high-security system with a bounty and face a constant stream of interdictions from system security"

IMO security does need to be more interested in hostiles, far too often they fly past when they should be intercepting.

"enter a system with notoriety and be proactively engaged by ATR until you leave"

Past a certain threshold I think so. I had an idea here (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/some-c-p-suggestions-tweaks-and-ideas-part-2.530119/) of an ATR ship that shadows you past 10 notoriety and a high bounty threshold, and that the only way to stop it coming back is to lay low and avoid other ships that scan you.
 
Players dont need NPC help. They need not be pitted against engineered NPC if they dont want to.

This is against other players mostly. Point 6-

"6: This is intended to help new players faced with attackers in open- however it might be that NPC attackers (i.e. random pirates) spawn normal security (say two Viper Mk 3s) to help while the ranks are low to give help. Mission NPCs would not trigger this help (since the player actively chose to take them on)."

is help against NPCs, but very few NPCs have engineering at all. They are mostly in missions or dangerous areas.
 
This is against other players mostly. Point 6-

"6: This is intended to help new players faced with attackers in open- however it might be that NPC attackers (i.e. random pirates) spawn normal security (say two Viper Mk 3s) to help while the ranks are low to give help. Mission NPCs would not trigger this help (since the player actively chose to take them on)."

is help against NPCs, but very few NPCs have engineering at all. They are mostly in missions or dangerous areas.
Solo helps best against overpowered players.
 
I'm a bit of a jerk, so I would probably just fly around on my mostly harmless alt account and interdict and shoot up wanted commanders. If any of the commanders shoot back, they immediately get an ATR wing sic'd on them and I jump out of the instance to let them have their fun. If at any point I rank up above novice, I reset my account, work towards getting a reasonably fast ship with a ton of armour and a few small guns, and continue to spread misery to all of the wanted commanders in the galaxy

It's a bit of an edge case, but I'd still say this is better than the current system, as it at least requires the victim of the gank-by-NPC to be a wanted criminal.

I'm a bit leery about having ATR spawn if a low-ranked player gets killed unless the game can differentiate between being ram-killed and insta-gibbed by a huge PA or railgun salvo, as that would add the potential for indefinite ganking via suicide ram. Of course, if the game can differentiate between ramming and insta-gibbing, gankers would just ram newbies to death instead so :unsure:
 
I'm a bit of a jerk, so I would probably just fly around on my mostly harmless alt account and interdict and shoot up wanted commanders. If any of the commanders shoot back, they immediately get an ATR wing sic'd on them and I jump out of the instance to let them have their fun. If at any point I rank up above novice, I reset my account, work towards getting a reasonably fast ship with a ton of armour and a few small guns, and continue to spread misery to all of the wanted commanders in the galaxy.

It's a bit of an edge case, but I'd still say this is better than the current system, as it at least requires the victim of the gank-by-NPC to be a wanted criminal.

What I was trying to think of was some breathing room for new people as they venture out, but yes it does have its limitations.
But then I think no system is going to be perfect though and at some point its a case of being better rather than cast iron.

I'm a bit leery about having ATR spawn if a low-ranked player gets killed unless the game can differentiate between being ram-killed and insta-gibbed by a huge PA or railgun salvo, as that would add the potential for indefinite ganking via suicide ram. Of course, if the game can differentiate between ramming and insta-gibbing, gankers would just ram newbies to death instead so :unsure:

I think the game can tell the difference. On my BGS murder adventures ramming NPCs to death still gave me a bounty, the difference being its a lower bounty so something is going on. If it can do that I'm assuming it can tell kills via rams, perhaps the speed on impact was above a threshold.
 
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