To Gravity or not to Gravity

[Mav359]

So i have been thinking..... Artificial Gravity

If i remember correctly in the Elite Dangerous novel Reclamation there was a mention that the pilot wore Mag boots and other posts i have read seems to confirm that in fact there is no Artificial Gravity in the Elite universe.

In the real world Spinning Mass generates gravity (I'm over simplifying that I'm sure), so in the stations the rings and at the landing pads there is gravity. In the tourists stations there are park like areas with what look like water fountains and artificial bodies of water..... all very nice looking and give the impression you wouldn't even mind walking around these areas in the docking ring as the traffic comes and goes..... great but if that's the case when a ship is blown up inside the station there are bits of it floating around and often bounce of the floor and then back up, if there is gravity at all as a result of the spinning should they float to the ground but then stay there? Which is it?

The reason I'm asking is that i have been re-watching FRJ's walk around the sidewinder, like many of you i want elite feet at the very least to explore and walk around the ships. If we don't have Artificial Gravity does Frontiers ability to create that content get harder, the dynamics of moving about would be different and possibly more complicated to achieve.

Would a narrative in Elite that Sirius or another company has developed AG plating for ships and is being deployed as standard to all ships with immediate effect help eliminate a potential issue and bring us closer to walking around quicker?

I always loved the idea of walking around the massive cruise liner that is the Beluga, that there would be a pool and bars and shops etc that there was an artificial space beach under and artificial sun on deck 4 only to have my vision of being somewhere hot that wasn't in work spoilt by the fact you would be doing all of this in your enormous MAG BOOTS :-(

Clearly i am bored but i'd like a galnet artical stating we all have AG plating installed in an effort to get elite feet even quicker.

 

[NorthernDevo]

So i have been thinking..... Artificial Gravity

If i remember correctly in the Elite Dangerous novel Reclamation there was a mention that the pilot wore Mag boots and other posts i have read seems to confirm that in fact there is no Artificial Gravity in the Elite universe.

In the real world Spinning Mass generates gravity (I'm over simplifying that I'm sure), so in the stations the rings and at the landing pads there is gravity. In the tourists stations there are park like areas with what look like water fountains and artificial bodies of water..... all very nice looking and give the impression you wouldn't even mind walking around these areas in the docking ring as the traffic comes and goes..... great but if that's the case when a ship is blown up inside the station there are bits of it floating around and often bounce of the floor and then back up, if there is gravity at all as a result of the spinning should they float to the ground but then stay there? Which is it?

The reason I'm asking is that i have been re-watching FRJ's walk around the sidewinder, like many of you i want elite feet at the very least to explore and walk around the ships. If we don't have Artificial Gravity does Frontiers ability to create that content get harder, the dynamics of moving about would be different and possibly more complicated to achieve.

Would a narrative in Elite that Sirius or another company has developed AG plating for ships and is being deployed as standard to all ships with immediate effect help eliminate a potential issue and bring us closer to walking around quicker?

I always loved the idea of walking around the massive cruise liner that is the Beluga, that there would be a pool and bars and shops etc that there was an artificial space beach under and artificial sun on deck 4 only to have my vision of being somewhere hot that wasn't in work spoilt by the fact you would be doing all of this in your enormous MAG BOOTS :-(

Clearly i am bored but i'd like a galnet artical stating we all have AG plating installed in an effort to get elite feet even quicker.

I wouldn't be overly interested in Star-Trek type artificial gravity; it would disturb my personal head narrative. In that, the large stations from the quick 'n easy modular Coriolis to the massive Orbis, spin to provide artificial gravity. Outposts do not; they are therefore zero-G. Crews onboard Outposts and light-gravity planet posts must therefore rotate every six months or so to avoid bone loss.
Also - AG provides some pretty serious challenges for the design of ED. Spinning stations wouldn't need to spin, for one. In the close confines of a standard docking bay, the competing gravities would play absolute hell with shipping.
One can imagine the plight of poor iSlaves who are shipped to Outposts to work...in zero-G...for years...until they are so debilitated they can no longer return to gravity. (Shudder) it's an awful thought...but right in line with Imperial ethos, methinks.

I always loved the idea of walking around the massive cruise liner that is the Beluga, that there would be a pool and bars and shops etc that there was an artificial space beach under and artificial sun on deck 4 only to have my vision of being somewhere hot that wasn't in work spoilt by the fact you would be doing all of this in your enormous MAG BOOTS :-(

Actually, you're thinking in gravity terms - something like the Beluga could be designed with opulence and richness in a zero-gravity environment. Picture for instance a 3D hot tub - a large bubble of hot water happy passengers can enjoy (with safety systems in place so plastered passengers don't drown, of course). Zero-G dancing in the Starlight Room. In 0G I'm told alcohol has a stronger effect so a Beluga could offer their signature cocktail, the Leesti Comet (Leesti Evil Juice, blue Curacao, lemon juice, lightly frozen into bite-sized spheres that melt the moment they pop into your mouth). There's another activity passengers enjoy onboard cruise ships - one generally performed in couple or groups...imagine how fun it would be in zero-G.
Oh yes...Beluga Cruise Lines is the way to see the galaxy, if you've got the creds!

Incidentally - I can at least answer this for you:

" if there is gravity at all as a result of the spinning should they float to the ground but then stay there? Which is it?

It's important to remember that centrifugal artificial gravity is not gravity - it's inertia. When a body is on a spinning surface (the inside of the docking bay, for instance), they are moving with that surface - and the inertia of their movement pull them outward, like spinning a sling over your head (or rather, like the stone inside that sling).

Since the body in question (in this case you, standing in the docking bay) is standing on a rotating plane of reference, this force is referred to as centrifugal force, and simulates gravity.
It's not actually gravity - so battle debris in the space inside the bay wouldn't fall to the ground. It would act precisely as you see in ED: drift, bounce, ricochet. It would be a serious threat to ships, infrastructure and personnel inside the bay, so Hazmat is going to be a very important job on a station.
(Also, I'm sure Hazmat crews absolutely hate the trigger-happy defensive teams.)

 

[Raino]

I wouldn't be overly interested in Star-Trek type artificial gravity

Yep, most loved Irrsinn: "Engine Stop" leading to ship immediately stop...

 

[Stealthie]

In a nutshell, it seems like there are 2 kinds of people interested in space-legs:-

1) The people who want mag-boots.
2) The people who want Artificial Gravity.

The people who want mag-boots are interested in the idea of proper zero-g gameplay, floating around their ship, moving around with no fixed orientation and the ability to "space-walk".
The down-side of that is that it's likely to put a serious crimp in any plans to create extravagant interiors for ships and I'm told it's really, really hard for an FPS engine to do properly.

The people who want AG are probably more interested in just being able to wander around, exploring locations.
The down-side of that is we're probably not going to get all the advanced activities that zero-g might provide.

Personally, I think FDev should probably compromise on the whole "No AG in the ED universe" thing, simply to make it easier to get space-legs done.
If they do that they could also give us compromised zero-g activities, where we can float around but we have some kind of "thruster suit" that controls our orientation so they don't have to figure out how to make an FPS engine generate things that work consistently in any orientation.

AFAIK, the only games that offer a proper zero-g FPS experience are ones where that is the central concept of the game and I just don't see FDev being able to tack that onto ED sufficiently well so I'd rather they just skipped the idea - which will, obviously, upset those who're specifically hoping for it.

 

[Mav359]

The people who want mag-boots are interested in the idea of proper zero-g gameplay, floating around their ship, moving around with no fixed orientation and the ability to "space-walk".
The down-side of that is that it's likely to put a serious crimp in any plans to create extravagant interiors for ships and I'm told it's really, really hard for an FPS engine to do properly.

This is kinda of the point i was making badly......

if the additional content is more likely to happen because its the easier option of the two i am at the stage where i'd rather see that and have a walk around rather then still be sat here and it never happen due to gaming engine issues

Im not trying to bash FDev but if fleet carriers has been this difficult then take the easier road or you may never get to the end. The game i bought as advertised is brilliant and been tremendous value for money so i have no complaints, my wants are just that but right now i'd rather be on a planet that looks like jurassic world or subnautica then not at all and i feel that if space legs could be made easier to get there then i would take that.

 

[Ted Striker]

They can keep stations spinning by simply saying that they’re too large for artificial gravity to be effective. They don’t need to go into any detail to explain the technology. If it’s best for the game with space legs (and I think it will be) they just need to say it’s been invented and now our ships have it. Maybe Ram Tah figured it out via Guardian technology or something, it doesn’t matter.

 

[Armyofducks]

Surely the easiest way to implement both would be AG inside, Magboots outside. AG module damaged means boots inside too making it difficult to walk about ect.

As for stations needing to spin call it cost. Stations are literally miles bigger so AG is too expensive but on outposts it's not so AG enabled. Too make it different you could even call outposts half and half with most of it 0g and only the core compartments AG enabled. I'm not a programmer but I doubt it would be that hard to get the basics like these done. (Which was pretty much confirmed by a friend who is a programmer, although not for a game company)

 

[gorankar]

If Fdev actually wants AG, they could easily introduce it with a CG/II where small scale artificial gravity gets invented. It's not that hard to come up with something semi believable/lore friendly.
For space legs, AG on ships and in small outposts, keep centrifugal in the big stations, and mag boots and maybe some limited jet belt in outer space when outside of ships.

 

[Linnunrata]

Crews onboard Outposts and light-gravity planet posts must therefore rotate every six months or so to avoid bone loss.

I'd say it is rather plausible to think that humanity has devised medical means to combat bone and muscle loss in prolonged 0 g environment.

 

[photomankc]

Spacelegs works just fine if I can walk through the ship on the floors as per normal, be that always-on mag-boots or magic gravity. I suspect people expecting to float around like swimming fish through ships are going to be disappointed. Chances are you are going to walk everywhere you go unless they model some kind of EVA unit to go outside the ship in space. Mag boots works fine as an explanation.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

Your character always wear mag-boots.

Boom.

No more worries about zero-g movement and you still get your no-ag universe.

 

[NorthernDevo]

They can keep stations spinning by simply saying that they’re too large for artificial gravity to be effective. They don’t need to go into any detail to explain the technology. If it’s best for the game with space let’s (and I think it will be) they just need to say it’s been invented and now our ships have it. Maybe Ram Tah figured it out via Guardian technology or something, it doesn’t matter.

Pretty much...
Take the Babylon 5 approach. B5 spins to provide gravity; but there's no suggestion of varying gravity among the multiple levels. Also, ship travel seems to have gravity when they want it - Sheridan's Agamemnon is alternately shown to have zero-G and people walking around without going 'clump! clump! clump!'
And of course Sheridan's fatal plunge out of a bombed train - and getting Koshed to safety. (Yeah...that was dumb. Cool though!)
There's plenty of handwavium in both B5 and ED; spacelegs wouldn't be a problem until you start to think about it too much.
(You know...like a small, basic ship traveling at 2001 C...)
Cheers!

 

[NorthernDevo]

I'd say it is rather plausible to think that humanity has devised medical means to combat bone and muscle loss in prolonged 0 g environment.

Possibly.... and a thousand years hence, I wouldn't doubt it.
My own protagonist - a detective serving on an orbiting Ring-and-Spindle city in geosynchronous Earth orbit - regularly takes H-Par; a drug which buffers her soft tissues against centrifugal gravity ranging from 0 to 1.6 G. Handwavium...lol.
Still - in my personal lore, in the ED universe medical protection against zero-G debilitation doesn't exist - it's more interesting that way.

 

[Armyofducks]

spacelegs wouldn't be a problem until you start to think about it too much.
(You know...like a small, basic ship traveling at 2001 C...)

I think that's half the problem, it's one game but about 3000000 different people saying what it is and what it should be to them. And people who shout the loudest win (or think they should)

 

[Deleted member 110222]

I think that's half the problem, it's one game but about 3000000 different people saying what it is and what it should be to them. And people who shout the loudest win (or think they should)

All too true sadly. They even get VIP visits to the studio...

I just don't understand why there is such rampant elitism in this particular genre.

It's really weird.

 

[NorthernDevo]

I think that's half the problem, it's one game but about 3000000 different people saying what it is and what it should be to them. And people who shout the loudest win (or think they should)

True, but that's the same for every online game - at least every game I've ever played.
Over on my other online game - Naval Action - there's still a bunch of guys screaming that they need to have an autopilot...in a 17th. century sailing ship. (shrug!)

 

[Sapyx]

when a ship is blown up inside the station there are bits of it floating around and often bounce of the floor and then back up, if there is gravity at all as a result of the spinning should they float to the ground but then stay there? Which is it?

The centripetal force created by rotation does not create "true gravity", it creates what could well be called "pseudo-gravity". It works similar to gravity in most situations in terms of creating a local sensation of "down", though it has its drawbacks. If you stand still and drop a ball while standing inside a station, the ball won't fall straight down - it will curve away, in the opposite direction to the rotation of the station; by the time it hits the ground, it will be noticeably rolling away from you. You'd probably get quite dizzy walking around in such an environment, because exactly how much "force" you'd feel would depend on which way you were walking. If you were walking in the same direction as the station was spinning, you'd feel less pull. If you were walking in the opposite direction, you'd fell more. You've seen those little trucks constantly rolling around the little endless trackway inside the station? The ones travelling in the opposite direction to station rotation are experiencing near-zero G, while those travelling the other way are experiencing double-gravity.

The pseudo-gravity comes entirely from being "attached" in some way to the station's inner surface, forcing you to rotate along with the station. You, standing there, would be attached by friction. A ship hovering above the surface of a rotating station is not attached and thus feels no attractive force towards the station - which is why our thrusters are constantly working overtime to keep us hovering in place just above the pad while we're trying to land, and also why you can't simply switch the engines off and drop into place, like you can on a planet. You also have the option of switching off the "rotation correction" thrusters so you can see directly what forces (or lack thereof) the ship experiences. A piece of debris from an exploded ship, likewise, feels no attraction to the "ground" inside a station but has no engines to keep it in place. It wants to remain motionless, which inside a station means constantly rolling around the station walls.

 

[metatheurgist]

Spinning mass generates gravity....?

Pretty much...
Take the Babylon 5 approach. B5 spins to provide gravity; but there's no suggestion of varying gravity among the multiple levels. Also, ship travel seems to have gravity when they want it - Sheridan's Agamemnon is alternately shown to have zero-G and people walking around without going 'clump! clump! clump!'
And of course Sheridan's fatal plunge out of a bombed train - and getting Koshed to safety. (Yeah...that was dumb. Cool though!)

Human ships only have grav in the spinning sections in B5 (like the empire ships). Sheridan's issue was he was floating towards a spinning space station surface moving at high speed! To generate some of the centripetal grav you're all talking about in this thread....

 

[Cmdr Nemo]

No such thing as gravity, the universe simply sucks in numerous various directions based on various obstacle(s) in its way.

 

[myothershipisacobraiv]

If they don't have artificial gravity then they have to do multiple different movement models or they need to do physics because once you get in range of a planet and you start walking around on the ship you will then inherit the planet's gravity.

If they do mag boots then they also might have to do an entirely separate set of animations for when mag boots are on as when you're walking around on a station or planet. Now, that might not be too enormous. Dead Space had the the mag boots thing, and it was just a couple extra animations, but it was still a thing.

So I think they'll probably just have artificial gravity because otherwise you're talking about a lot of different movement models and it gets ambitious especially if you're talking about moving around in the ship without mag boots on or artificial gravity.