Just one example how quickly a development can shift cataclysmic, within three years only!
Source: https://twitter.com/sentinel_hub/status/1201030515199021056?s=20
Source: https://twitter.com/sentinel_hub/status/1201030515199021056?s=20
General / Off-Topic Is man made climate change real or not? Prove your belief here.
- Thread starter Zak Gordon
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So the denial movement has made it's mark (as it was funded to do so), people do still really 'believe' AGW is a hoax for reasons x,y,z (that can never be proven with the scientific method, as that discipline is where ALL the (credible) warnings about AGW comes from), and those opinions and beliefs are difficult to change, even with empirical evidence (as we can see in this thread).
Still all that does not matter ultimately (we can do our bit (and should carry on trying) to try to undo the misinformation and educate the ill-informed etc) as the wheels that turn the world know the truth, and are slowly re-acting:
'Tackling climate crisis is what we should be doing, says new IMF boss':
And more details in the article off course, but this is mainly to show that the 'grown-ups', the people that run the actual world, know AGW is a BIG issue and will help bring in changes to reduce the damage it is doing, which is good news. If you don't have a world run on the basis of scientific knowledge or controlled only by big children with self interest as their only concern you will have problems (as we are seeing). Luckily the financial world is very pragmatic and realism based, so that is going to push us hard in the directions we need to go to keep human civilization going past the next few hundred years (which is a good thing). The technological and economic (and environmental!) boost this will give the world will be trans-formative in mostly all positive ways!
Still all that does not matter ultimately (we can do our bit (and should carry on trying) to try to undo the misinformation and educate the ill-informed etc) as the wheels that turn the world know the truth, and are slowly re-acting:
'Tackling climate crisis is what we should be doing, says new IMF boss':
And more details in the article off course, but this is mainly to show that the 'grown-ups', the people that run the actual world, know AGW is a BIG issue and will help bring in changes to reduce the damage it is doing, which is good news. If you don't have a world run on the basis of scientific knowledge or controlled only by big children with self interest as their only concern you will have problems (as we are seeing). Luckily the financial world is very pragmatic and realism based, so that is going to push us hard in the directions we need to go to keep human civilization going past the next few hundred years (which is a good thing). The technological and economic (and environmental!) boost this will give the world will be trans-formative in mostly all positive ways!
I know "vacation spanish" from the times I was already there
.I can understand most, but can't speak fluently yet.I would never get bored in the canary islands, as I love nature trekking (and there's like hundreds of awesome places for trekking there), the jaw-dropping dramatic landscapes, the huge, outlandish volcanic areas, and the sense of peace, isolation and wonder I get in those places.
The canaries have been my prime destination to detox from having to live in the city (which I truly hate, but need to because it's impossible to get a high paying IT job away from the capital, and it's impossible to have any kind of half-decent living in portugal without a high paying job - for our standards - it would actually be little over minimum wage in most western europe).
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dunno about la palma but tenerife has no shortage of retired brits
True, Tenerife is full of retired Brits, La Palma on the other hand is full of retired Germans. They're both prime destinations for people who enjoy nature trekking, incredible landscapes, and active volcanism. I call them the Atlantic's Hawaai.
Morning Zak,
this is likely to be way too complex for a serious debate, but I disagree on the financial world being realism based.
Just one example, the roll over of debts is not realism based, instead it reflects ideology based adopted instruments that misapporpriated enormous sums of public money. QE of 2.7 trillion Euro for Italy et al. to roll over is anything but realism based, because at the same time ECB created one Euro for Italian roll over, it created two Euros to buy German debts, a country with surplus! This has no rationale but is absurd to the utmost, and the IMF operates in the same absurd universe.
this is likely to be way too complex for a serious debate, but I disagree on the financial world being realism based.
Just one example, the roll over of debts is not realism based, instead it reflects ideology based adopted instruments that misapporpriated enormous sums of public money. QE of 2.7 trillion Euro for Italy et al. to roll over is anything but realism based, because at the same time ECB created one Euro for Italian roll over, it created two Euros to buy German debts, a country with surplus! This has no rationale but is absurd to the utmost, and the IMF operates in the same absurd universe.
What i mean is they base their actions on accumulating wealth. They have started to understand that AGW is a real world danger to that process, so they will react to avoid it happening; if too slowly and not in a uniform manner until everyone here in this thread is basically saying what most of us have been saying in this thread (and the other one).
But they (the financial systems) will drive our countries in the right direction in terms of our AGW causation because they will understand the reality of the situation and it's effect on their very existence. That process has already started to happen.
(btw any system of money is make-believe, we create it and we need to 'believe' in it for it to work, so it is all ethreal to a certain extent! I was not talking about any of that, just the actions grown ups will take to avoid AGW societal collapse; which is a rational response. Big children with vested interests in not wanting to address AGW is another topic entirely, and not rational ultimately!).
But they (the financial systems) will drive our countries in the right direction in terms of our AGW causation because they will understand the reality of the situation and it's effect on their very existence. That process has already started to happen.
(btw any system of money is make-believe, we create it and we need to 'believe' in it for it to work, so it is all ethreal to a certain extent! I was not talking about any of that, just the actions grown ups will take to avoid AGW societal collapse; which is a rational response. Big children with vested interests in not wanting to address AGW is another topic entirely, and not rational ultimately!).
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And, found it? Or was the 'tearing down every existing house and building in America' thing just, you know, alarmist fear-mongering?
EIB phases out all fossil fuel investments until 2021
European Investment Bank ends lending to fossil fuel projects
EU finance ministers agreed to phase out EIB lending to unabated oil and gas projects, overcoming opposition from some member states in marathon board meeting
www.climatechangenews.com
and if anyone here should hit their homepage, this is their welcome screen:
82% of Europeans say that climate change has an impact on their everyday lives
Homepage | European Investment Bank
The European Investment Bank (EIB) is the lending arm of the European Union. We are the world’s largest multilateral lender and the biggest provider of climate finance.
www.eib.org
One contrarian cannot exist in a vacuum, as there would be nobody to disagree with. Introduce a second and you have two, not one individual with opposing views. Has it escaped your attention that to hold the view an 'other' is a contrarian, your opposing viewpoint is also polarised against theirs?
In the final battle between Neo and Agent Smith (Revolutions) neither can win until one stops fighting.
Again, this view could be equally applied from either side of the polarity line, as the Overton pendulum swings the hearts and minds of the common folk. Technological advances, thanks to fossil fuels in our recent history, have accelerated quality of life and obsoleted industries as consumers find the Internet.
To survive, all media channels will have to adapt their carrot, instead of cheating to silence opposition.
If you've been reading only the posts in this thread from the climate change crisis camp I would not be at all surprised if you'd developed a compelling desire to avoid the 'end of the world' presented. If all that horrifying stuff is true, fearing change, hating and blaming the 'other' may be warranted. IF TRUE.
If it's not true, there's a problem. "Cui bono?" Who benefits from feeding sci-fi horror to our children?
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And the climate crisis is the latest hot investment gaining free airtime and emotively driven consumers.
Advertising is a significant part of any expense budget, hence climbing on the 'gravy train' already going.
What is value? What is wealth?
Let's say that I buy an piece of land for one million, and sell it for twice the price I paid for it, two million. I have "earned" money (one million), but has the value of the land increased?
No it hasn't. It's the same piece of land. The money earned has to come from somewhere, and the value of money has to be linked to something physical with a value. The classical way of looking at value, is that the value of something is what you can have somebody pay for it. Let's look at another example to understand that. Say 10 people have one dollar each, and want to buy apples. You have ten apples you would like to sell. The maximum amount of money you can get for the apples is 10x1$, one dollar from each potential buyer. Therefore you set the price of an apple (the "value"") at one dollar per apple, and sell all the apples for a total of 10$.
We could also consider that each potential buyer has 2$. In that case the amount of money is 10x2$ or 20$. Here's the interesting point: The 10 apples are still identical to the apples in the 1$/apple example. They have the same value for the persons who want eat them, the only difference being the amount of money.
What is money? Money is a storage of value. At least that is what many economists believe. But it's not really. If the central banks "print" more money it only makes the price increase but the GDP increases, so that the politicians and economist can point to an empty number nobody understand and say: "Look, the economy is better than ever before. Dow 28,000!". It does not create apples. For a brief moment in history, like a blink of an eye compared to 42 years, we have created a lot of fictional value in the form of finances, but in the same time the real value of the planet has gone down.
Why? Because to produce anything, you have to use limited resources including energy. In the same time the amount of people needing apples (food) has gone from 1 billion to 7.8 billion. The wealth of the planets population is said to have gone up, but in reality it's an illusion. We have used resources, creating utility, but because the amount of resources has been reduced, the actual total value has gone down. You can increase the price of lithium by extracting it and using it for a battery, but because the lithium gets "lost" (spread) into nature after the battery's 10 year lifetime, you only create utility for ten years, whereas you lose the lithium forever.
Lets find out!
Yes.
Yeah, that is not how value works.
What century do you live in?
No, it is about what people want, not can, pay.
Lol, no. See above.
Wut? Consider that I have, for example, not $2 but $20000. Are you going to put the price at $20000? Do you think I will pay that price? Do you really think 'setting the price at whatever sum of money someone has' is anything other than insane?
Not really? Well, I am excited to discover the truth!
"They say money is a storage for value, but when they print money they don't create apples!"
Honestly mate, and without exaggerating, I've heard 8-year olds with a better understanding of how money works.
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Yeah, let me mention some things here, because I have some insights about this and about what's coming next in terms of global power shifts.
Speaking of polarization, if you've been paying attention you will have noticed that Eastern and Western civilization have become increasingly polarized, with the central Western power being the USA and the central Eastern power being Russia. These two giants have been engaged in a delicate dance since the Cold War, which, by the way, the USA did *not" win.
Interestingly the West is largely Christianized, while the East is increasingly Islamic. Look at some of the former Soviet republics in the region of the Black Sea. Notice their religious leanings? 70%, 80%, 90% Muslim?
The West is in serious decline for a number of reasons. Largely our culture is rendering us increasingly impotent. As hedonism becomes more prevalent, the potency of a nation as an actor on the global stage decreases. The West is turning its back on the most potent and available energy source: fossil fuels. The West has a huge immigration crisis and a failure to control borders and maintain national identities. Western cultures are hugely divided as progressive agendas take hold.
The Eastern powers don't have these problems, at least not to the degree that the West does. Are China and Russia cutting back on their fossil fuel consumption? Ha, if anything they are picking up the slack and buying up whatever the West won't buy, and the Saudis and Venezuelans and others are happy for the business. While the USA spends money to subsidize "clean" energy, the East is getting more bang for their buck.
If you haven't noticed yet, we're on the verge of a global power shift. The East is on the ascendant. Here's a preview of how it's going to go down; I'm sure I'm going to be blasted as a crazy loon for this, but when the violence starts remember what I've said here:
The USA is going to become embroiled in a bloody civil war. This will be America's third civil war, after the War of Independence from Britain and the American Civil War. Hard to say exactly what issue will spark the powder keg: impeachment? election fraud? a gun grab? With more guns in the USA than citizens, with each state having its own National Guard, with highly militarized police forces everywhere in the country, all sides of the conflict will be well armed and, as in the last civil war, foolishly convinced of their own ability to achieve quick victory.
It will be too good of an opportunity to pass up for those Eastern powers who have long desired to exert dominance over the West. A coalition of Eastern powers with Russia at the head will launch a massive nuclear first strike on the United States. There will be no chance of recovery or retaliation.
EVERY country that CAN is influencing EVERY American election.
I agree that civil war is coming. It's a little further off then the current farce of impeachment, though. That will fail spectacularly, anyway. The factors involved in priming the powder keg are going to take another 1-2 decades by my reasoning. I used to think the idea of a civil war in America was a joke, but after watching the Andy Ngo beating in Portland (carried out by Antifa and empowered by a woke left mayoral admin), I can definitely picture it. The timeline I'm looking at basically boils down to when Antifa organizers and promoters achieve enough power in the country. We're not there yet, but it's coming.
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The humanity must end its «war on nature», said UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres on Sunday, before the opening of the UN climate conference (COP25) in Madrid, denouncing the commitments “totally inadequate” by the international community to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
The reason Russia is accused of having influenced the US election is not because of anything Bloodsign said, but because all western intelligence agencies know, and have reported, they did. Its not a rumor, its a given. As to Russia's motives, that also isn't up to debate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics
Watching the average American 'debate' whether Russia influenced the election is like watching Wheel of Fortune players keep guessing letters long after the phrase has been fully revealed. It is both tragic and hilarious to see at the same time.
Claims ultimate authority on a murky, poorly understood subject, sites wickipedia as ultimate evidence. Thanks for my first good laugh of the morning, Ian
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